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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4014 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 04:39 pm: |
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Some thoughts apropos of the signage argument. 1) The Secondary School for Corca Dhuibhne is in Dingle. It is an all irish school, but under pressure beacuse of pupils from east of Dingle. Taking Dingle out of the Gaeltacht will increase that. 2) The county council offices for Corca Dhuibhne are in Dingle. Under the offical langauges act, and Kerry Co Co Plan, there is a legal obligation to provide a higher level of service in Irish in the Gaeltacht. 3) The Hospital is in Dingle. see previous. and so on. Of course, you could argue that all those services should be moved to an Buailtín- but I can't see that happening, since Dingle serves the whole peninsula. |
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Cionaodh
Member Username: Cionaodh
Post Number: 452 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 05:05 pm: |
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I've often wondered if the town itself truly meets the criteria of a Gaeltacht area, since English is so pervasive. One rarely encounters Irish spoken casually in the streets or shops of Dingle (An Café Liteartha excepted), and the interested visitor must seek it out. Are people lying on the census, or just being clandestine about their Irish use? Don't get me wrong, it's a nice little town -- just not an obvious stronghold of the language. http://www.gaeilge.org FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 627 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:35 am: |
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While Cionaidh may have a bit of a point, Aonghus's argument wins with me. I agree with you a Aonghuis. The Gaeltacht starts at An Daingean and doesn't include things east of it, correct? Beir bua agus beannacht |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4017 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 05:10 am: |
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Actually, the official Gaeltacht starts east of Dingle, in Lispole. There is a committee of worried people in Lispole trying to make sure they don't get booted out along with Dingle if it comes to it! I have to say that I don't share Cionaodh's experience. And I have heard that things are very different in winter - remember that in the tourist season Dingle towns population trebles, and few of those people are Irish speakers - Irish speakers prefer to go elsewhere. |
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Cionaodh
Member Username: Cionaodh
Post Number: 457 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:35 am: |
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I was there once in February (pre-Fungie era), and it was about the same. Having an interest in the language, I would often make a point to engage people in Irish wherever I would go, so I know that many people have it -- but if I shut my mouth and just observe interactions, I mostly heard English in the shops, on the street, and in *some* pubs. It was the opposite in Ventry and Ballyferriter -- English was the rarity. As an aside, An Droichead Beag was/is a nice place in Dingle if you enjoy a bit of comhrá or a seisiún. http://www.gaeilge.org FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4022 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:10 am: |
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quote:It was the opposite in Ventry and Ballyferriter -- English was the rarity. Gura fada amhlaidh! I think Dingle is not a core part of the gaeltacht, but is important because it services the Gaeltacht. I believe Uibh Rathach declined as a Gaeltacht because it was shut off from it's service town of Cahirciveen, which, not being in the Gaeltacht, had no incentive to serve an Irish speaking community. I'd hate to see the same happen in Corca Dhuibhne. |
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Cionaodh
Member Username: Cionaodh
Post Number: 459 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:41 am: |
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I think Dingle is not a core part of the gaeltacht, but is important because it services the Gaeltacht. An excellent point, and the best argument for keeping the town in -- no matter what we call it. http://www.gaeilge.org FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Not to be sounding a premature death-knell for Munster Irish but can the end be far off with things like this? After all, it is the smallest dialect and Ó Cuív in his book about Irish dialects discussed the rapid disappearance of the language in Munster particularly. I'm not happy about, it just commenting. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 487 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Why everybody is concentrating on An Daingean only? There is vibrant community on Oileán Cléire and Múscraí are not dead after all. Baile 'n Ghaortaigh, Cúil Aodha e.g. are thoroughly Irish speaking places. Cill na Martra is worse and Réidh na nDoirí - disaster, but all gaeltachts have their strong and weak spots. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4025 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
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As premature as all death knells for Irish. And as inaccurate. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4026 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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quote:Why everybody is concentrating on An Daingean only? Because that is where the reaction to the language act is focussed at the moment. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 488 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
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Aonghus - I was reacting to putting sing of equivalence between Munster Irish and An Daingean. Of course I know what is a fuss about. Just don't like that other parts of Munster Irish are ignored as if non-existant. (Message edited by Róman on October 26, 2006) |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:56 am: |
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Roman, How do you define "vibrant"? I was was in Muscraí in 1968 and saw little evidence of it even then. Do you have any statistics of language use in the areas you mentioned? What about An Rinn? I was there also - same story. How many speakers are there in Munster anyway? Again, I support the survival of Irish but let's get real. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4029 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
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Unregistered Guest, I might take account of your opinions if you were not hiding behind anonymity. At the moment, you look like a troll. Rómán has just returned from a trip to several munster gaeltachtaí. http://www.musgrai.com http://www.deise.ie Things have moved on since 1968, you know. All the statictics your heart might desire are here: http://www.eirestat.cso.ie/census/ReportFolders/reportfolders.aspx |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 489 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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quote:How do you define "vibrant"? I was was in Muscraí in 1968 Our anonymous guest is misquoting me - I said: quote:There is vibrant community on Oileán Chléire and Múscraí are not dead after all So it is obvious that under vibrant community I meant "Oileán Chléire". About Múscraí - I said that language "is not dead after all". please do not alter my statements. I would never say that in Múscraí as whole Irish is vibrant - but in Baile Átha'n Ghaortaigh or Cúil Aodha Irish is as alive and kicking as in any best gaeltacht around the country. I visited Cúil Aodha repeatedly as they have built swimming pool - so I had ample opportunity to hear staff and visitors chatting in Irish. Baile Átha'n Ghaortaigh I visited couple of times and I was impressed by the local level of Irish. Of course there is summer colledge there with kids as far as from Cill Chainnigh (spelling?) - but on the football (soccer for Americans)pitch trainer was instructing them in Irish and they had no trouble following his words. |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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Roman, Thanks for a civil response to a straightforward question. I don't want to come across as confrontational as I mentioned before I'm pro-language. I would hope Munster Irish would survive. As far as someone choosing to remain anonymous, I'm certainly not the only one. How that is supposed to make me a troll I don't know. I thought a troll was someone who just tries to stir things up to no good end. Aonghus, I really don't care what you think. You need to deal with the subject and not who posted it. |
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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 01:23 pm: |
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quote:As far as someone choosing to remain anonymous, I'm certainly not the only one. How that is supposed to make me a troll I don't know. Maith thú a Unregistered Guest! I couldn't agree with you more. Just because someone is a registered guest, doesn't make them superior or more entitled to express their opinions. Registered guests in fact are more anonymous than unregistered guests because of the fact their IP addresses don't show up. Anyone can pick a name and register and none of us (except the web administrator) knows who they are. Now that's anonymity at its finest! Anyway, if you're ever in need of a pseudonym to make yourself look more "respectable," let me know; I have plenty to spare! |
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Suaimhneas
Member Username: Suaimhneas
Post Number: 101 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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"One rarely encounters Irish spoken casually in the streets or shops of Dingle (An Café Liteartha excepted)" Not true! As Aonghus has pointed things are noticeably different once the babble of tourist have gone. Only yesterday I was in Foxy Johns, Super Valu supermarket and the petrol station at Baile Mhuillin all within the space of an hour, and in each I heard comhrá as gaeilge |
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Cionaodh
Member Username: Cionaodh
Post Number: 460 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 03:02 pm: |
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Not true! As Aonghus has pointed things are noticeably different once the babble of tourist have gone. Only yesterday I was in Foxy Johns, Super Valu supermarket and the petrol station at Baile Mhuillin all within the space of an hour, and in each I heard comhrá as gaeilge Perhaps I've just been unlucky, then. http://www.gaeilge.org FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Suaimhneas
Member Username: Suaimhneas
Post Number: 103 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 03:39 pm: |
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"I thought a troll was someone who just tries to stir things up to no good end." I've seen the term "troll" used several times (mostly in relation) the much-maligned Fe-arn. Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a troll in the context of discussion boards. Does it come from the Norse mythical creature? |
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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
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Here's an interesting article on the term troll as it applies to the internet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls CAUTION: This article is from wikipedia and may not be 100% peer-reviewed. Read at your own risk. |
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Jonas
Member Username: Jonas
Post Number: 964 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 04:01 pm: |
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It's interesting to hear about your experiences, Róman. When I was in Múscraí a few years ago I found Irish to be very much alive in Cúil Aodha and it was actually on the increase in Baile Mhúirne, I heard the language all the time in both places. In Béal Átha'n Ghaorthaidh, I visited a few people and spoke Irish with all of them, but outside those houses I did not hear any Irish at all. Similarly, a friend of mine who is learning Irish visited Oiléan Chléire in early June and was disappointed to hear almost no Irish. However, I'm glad to hear you had other experiences. What other Gaeltacht areas did you visit? As for Dingle, my friends in the area say that there is more Irish spoken in the town now than it has been for the past 100 years. English dominates in the town, but that is no recent development. If you know where to go, you can get by in Irish without any problem. |
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 04:04 pm: |
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I think it comes from "trolling around." Somebody who enters a discussion forum with no other purpose than to cause strife and argument. |
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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 04:48 pm: |
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At the moment, you look like a troll. For a pretty scary picture of what a troll might look like, take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll In Norway, they even have road signs warning of trolls! The link above also goes into some detail of the origins of trolls. I hope I can sleep tonight! CAUTION: The article above is from wikipedia and may not be 100% peer-reviewed. Read at your own risk. Conas dearfa "troll" as Gaeilge? |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1839 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 06:19 pm: |
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quote:Conas déarfá "troll" as Gaeilge? Troll. Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 633 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:33 pm: |
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Sure and I'm awfully glad that I'm not the only one who was confused about this troll business :) |
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Mac Léinn Trolla? aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:47 pm: |
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A Dennis, go raibh maith as an eolas agus na ceartúcháin. It sounds to easy, troll, for troll in Irish. I believe you, but I thought there might have been some older word for "big monster," or something. |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 4033 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:10 am: |
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There are plenty of words for big monsters. And I did respond to Unregistered guests points. I don't object to unregistered guests per say. But I do think (because I have come across the attitude in Internet fora before) that "I was in Gaeltacht X and Irish there is dead" is trolling for trouble, especially when addressed to a contributor who is noted for his vociferous support of the Gaeltacht in question. Therefore I prefer discussing with people, unregistered or not, who are identifiable and have a consistent line of discussion, as Mack the Nicknamer does. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 492 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:49 am: |
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A Jonais, a chara! Tá an-áthas orm to see you back. Basically my two-week trip was following - a day in Bleá Cliath, Gailleamh - where I heard my first Irish, Inis Mór. I passed through Luimneach - although did spend only couple hours there. Then one week in Múscraí which I cycled hence and forth. I've been to Maigh Chromtha, Cill na Martra, Réidh na nDoirí, Inse Geimhlach, Gúgán Barra, Baile Mhic Íre, Baile Bhuirne, Cúil Aodha. Actually the whole business of Baile Mhic Íre vs. Baile Bhuire is very confusing. There is no sign when one baile ends and the other starts. And from my conversation with locals I got impression they don't know themselves where the boundary is. Some said that the birdge is the place, the other - church and so on. Any version is wrong as Coláiste Bhaile Bhuirne is before the church, so unless one supposes that coláiste belonging to Baile Bhuirne is situated in Baile Mhic Íre this whole thing doesn't make sense. Actually the deli shop in Baile Mhic Íre was surprising as it was the only one in Ireland I have seen that had ALL signage in Irish ONLY. Just imagine a shop - when huge signs state ARÁN, BAINNE and nothing else. I was delighted. But I failed to engage shop assistants in Irish, either the young girls were shy or didn't speak any Irish. That was sad. After Múscraí I passed Cill Airne - not to much Irish there, one day in Tráigh Lí - no Irish whatsoever maybe because I didn't see many Caucasians :-)), couple of days in An Daingean (with Ceann Tráigh, Fionn Tráigh as well), and couple days in Corcaigh and back to Bleá Cliath. Re Béal Átha'n Ghaorthaigh - this was the only place where I have seen many youths speaking Irish in one place at the same time. This made me smile - after that I came to conclusion that Irish is not dead yet. |
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Jonas
Member Username: Jonas
Post Number: 971 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 08:45 am: |
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Go raibh maith agat, a chara! Your trip sounds very nice indeed :-) Regarding the shops with sings only in Irish, I've seen a few. Especially out in Ceantar na n-Oiléan while I was staying there. That area remains the most Irish-speaking place I've been in. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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That's great to hear- sometimes I wonder if Irish is still spoken at all. I asked this in Conradh na Gaeilge and they said, "sure, sure" etc but when i later calld them about a book, the person on the phone didnt understadn the name of a book in irish and I overheard her asking in English. They make irish seem like the most boring object in the world |
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 636 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:21 pm: |
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So Roman a chara, did you stay at Kirrary, because the man that Ilene described as being noteworthy sounded like yourself, unless there are lots of Lithuanians with fluent Irish visiting Ireland and staying with her. Beir bua agus beannacht. |
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Róman
Member Username: Róman
Post Number: 493 Registered: 03-2006
| Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 05:14 pm: |
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Riona - you mean this lady which says "lovely" every second word? :-) I don't remember the name of the place - but it might have been Kirrary, I suppose. It was raining when I arrived so I went practically to the first place I have found not far from bus stop. Did you stay at the same place then, Riona? |
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 640 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 11:31 pm: |
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I did indeed. I really liked it and if I were to go back to Daingean I'd stay there again. She did say lovely a lot. That is very perculiar that we were in the exact same place not very far apart in time, I'd not have imagined crossing paths with you, so to speak, in that way. Her husband gave a very interesting tour of the penninsula that I really enjoyed. Beir bua agus beannacht |
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