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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (November-December) » Archive through November 07, 2006 » What makes beauty in a language? « Previous Next »

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 4013
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 03:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What makes people say "language X" beautiful, or more beautiful than Y?

I speak three fairly fluently, and can read french and understand spanish reasonably.

But I have read and heard beautiful things in all languages I can understand.

I don't understand the concept of a language in the abstract being more beautiful than another.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 05:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Perhaps I should make an attempt to answer the question since I'm guilty of ascribing, in another thread, the attribute of beauty to languages. I consider languages to be beautiful due to their acoustic nature, much like the beauty of music. We listen to a piece of music and we either like it or not.

For languages, it's a similar experience for me; I hear the sounds of a language and I relate to them as I would a piece of music. There are pitch-related and rhythmic aspects to the spoken language as well as timbre and dissonance/consonance aspects that I consciously or subconsciously relate to, which helps me form my likings for a particular language. The same thing happens I think when people listen to music. There are certain aspects of a piece of music that people either like or dislike. If they like it, they may like it more than another form or piece of music. They may say one form of music is more beautiful than another.

So, in the end, I think liking the sound of a particular language more than another is subjective. That is, beauty is in the ear of the beholder, much like it is with music. Both of them, language and music, are abstract. But just as most people wouldn't have any problem with the notion of music being beautiful, the same aspect of beauty can be associated with language.

"If it ain't got that swing, it don't mean a thing" Duke Ellington

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 05:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

For languages, it's a similar experience for me; I hear the sounds of a language and I relate to them as I would a piece of music.

Compare a person from South Africa speaking English with a person from Scotland speaking English. Same language. Different sound altogether.

Perhaps it would be more pertinent to narrow it down to an accent or dialect being beautiful?

I myself find the English spoken in South Africa to be quite disgusting (but obviously that's just my own subjective opinion), however I'm quite fond of the English spoken in Scotland -- nice chime to it.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Mac Léinn Áilleachta, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge Number of Pseudonyms: 25 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 05:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's a link that I found interesting and perhaps helpful in understanding the concept of beauty as it relates to language and music:

http://ecrp.uiuc.edu/v8n1/galicia.html

Excerpt from the abstract:

quote:

The data obtained in these and other similar studies suggest a parallelism and/or similarity in the codification and organization of musical and verbal stimuli. The studies also imply, based on this finding, that the processing of musical and linguistic stimuli may involve the same cerebral functions and/or take place in the same regions of the cerebral cortex.


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Riona
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhear na mbrog, you are very forward to state an opinion of English dialect so clearly. I mean this only as observation, not as more.

I first heard Irish as a young girl as it was being sung in by Enya (Eithne). Its difference from other languages I'd heard and its apparent mysterious nature is what lured me onward toward itself. As time went on I came to realize how much I liked it beyond that initial impression and it gradually grew to be what it is now for me.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Mbm
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 04:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't understand either what people mean by "language so-and-so is beautiful" an the like. When I hear such things I just roll my eyes and go elsewhere. I guess I'm an engineer at heart.

I can appreciate when things are beatifully worded, but that can happen in any language. Even in programming languages.

(Message edited by mbm on October 26, 2006)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

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Aonghus
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 05:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I take Mack's point about the sound of a language.

But I wonder is there an inverse correlation between understanding the material and enjoying the sound.

I suspect someone understanding ugly words in a mellifluous language will react differently to another who hears the sounds, but doesn't understands the words.

(Ach, dár ndóigh, is innealtóir go smior mise chomh maith!)

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 05:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is a question that has come to my mind, regarding prestige languages. Are prestige languages always down to the elite owning it, or is there, despite structural differences between tongues, some features in sound that are similar over different languages.

Mar shampla, on average, are prestige tongues more sonorant, that is more vowel-like, than colloquial forms due to humans preferring more vowel like sounds?

I personally doubt it, unless gutteral articulation is more frowned upon due to modern fashions that may be cross cultural

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Mbm
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 06:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As far as I know, the accepted view in linguistics today is that the inherent features of a language have absolutely no bearing on its social standing. In other words, English is a big-time language because the people who speak it are influential, and not because it is easy or beautiful or what not.

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

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Dáithí Ó Geanainn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Very interesting points - may I add another?
What I mean by beautiful is certainly the sound..if a language struck me as dissonant it would be hard for me to think of it as beautiful.
However, there is also the poetry of expression - and this is, I think, where Irish scores highly. I don't just mean pithy sayings, but the construction of sentences and phrases in Irish seems to me to have a certain magic.
Not saying others don't - but this one I love!

DG

"An Ghailge.Áilleacht thar caint!"

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A Fhear na mbrog, you are very forward to state an opinion of English dialect so clearly. I mean this only as observation, not as more.

I know my comment wasn't exactly pleasant, so I chose to emphasise that it was just my own opinion and nothing more, in the hope that people wouldn't take too much offense. That said though, I'm not going to lie -- I can't stand the sound of South African English (particularly spoken by "Cape Coloureds" -- and I mean no disrespect in using that term to denote the demographic in question), it sounds utterly disgusting to my ear.

But of course, that's just my own opinion! : )

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeigle (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I suspect someone understanding ugly words in a mellifluous language............ Hmm.... what makes people say that words are ugly?


Is innealtoir mise chomh maith. Can't we engineers agree on anything???

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Róman
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Post Number: 486
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

however I'm quite fond of the English spoken in Scotland



This is really subjective - I can state your word 'disgusting' exactly about Scottish variety

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Aonghus
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 10:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I meant words with an ugly meaning.

quote:

Smiling wickedly, he moved round the pug, who had his fists up. "Fiche-moi la paix," he crooned. "My friend, I am going to massacre you."




http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301231.txt

Mellifluous french, mais....

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Mac Léinn Súl ag Longadán, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge Number of Pseudonyms: 26 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

When I hear such things I just roll my eyes and go elsewhere.

Here's something to make your eyes roll at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellar_door

CAUTION: This excerpt is from Wikipedia and may not be peer reviewed. Read at your own risk.

Cellar door is a combination of words in the English language once characterized by J. R. R. Tolkien to have an especially beautiful sound. In his 1955 essay "English and Welsh", commenting on his affection towards the Welsh language, Tolkien wrote:

"Most English-speaking people...will admit that cellar door is 'beautiful', especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful than, say, sky, and far more beautiful than beautiful. Well then, in Welsh for me cellar doors are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant."

I suppose if it's good enough for Tolkien to attribute beauty to words, it's good enough for me.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

especially if dissociated from its sense



Der Schein bestimmt das Bewusstsein

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Опарник соленья будет другим примером много учитывают красивейшим звуком на английском языке.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá buntáiste agat orm anois, a Mhack.

Ní dheacaigh mé níos faide ar an ollscoil ná an aibitear Rúiseach.

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Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dála an scéil, cá bhfuil Peter?

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Róman
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Mhic Léinn na Gaelainne,

What you wrote doesn't make sense ^-^

"(Obscure word)" "of pickled stuff" "will be another example" "take into consideration" "the most beautiful sound of Englyshe".

Strange, isn't it?

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Mac Léinn Shéitéireacht, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge # Pseudonyms: 26 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní hea, a Aonghuis, tá buntáiste agatsa orm nuair scríobh tú as Gearmáinis. Níl Gearmáinis agam ar bith, mar lan duine eile anseo. Ni thuigim "Der Schein bestimmt das Bewusstsein" Bhí mé ag séitéoreacht agus chuaigh mé go http://babelfish.altavista.com/ agus chonaic me:

"The light determines consciousness" as "Der Schein bestimmt das Bewusstsein." Cé é sin?

Mura mhiste leat, tar hall ansin agus cuir abairt Rúiseach thuas.

Shíl mé go bhfuil scríobh muid anseo as Gaeigle agus as Bearla, nach ea? Of course, if folks are having a conversation here between themselves in any language they all understand, I think that's great and wouldn't consider it rude or condescending.

Mackie

FRC - GRMA especially my pseudonyms!

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Mac Léinn Feirme Ainmhí, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeigle, # Pseudonyms: 27 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 01:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What you wrote doesn't make sense ^-^



If you go to http://babelfish.altavista.com/ and enter in the Russian sentence above you'll get:

"The jar of pickles will be another example much is considered by the most beautiful sound in the English."

In other words, "pickle jar" is another example of what some folks consider a beautiful sound.

I'd have to admit this is not one of my favorite threads since I feel I'm in the unenviable position of defending why I find language, like music, to be beautiful. I'm also suprised that this conversation hasn't yet gravitated to something like "Americans are racists, blah, blah blah." simply because I find beauty where others don't. To stave off such an argument, I'd like to say I find all languages beautiful, but that some are more beautiful than others.

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Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 01:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Gaeigle

An dearmad cló is ansa leat! Giggle? Gaggle? Gaeigle?

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Giggle? Gaggle? Gaeigle? Tá tú an ghreannmhar a Dennis!

Is dearmad-botún cló arís. Caithfidh mé a cheannaigh méarchlár nua!

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Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 01:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Der Schein bestimmt das Bewusstsein

Nó i bhfocail eile, "Is é an t-éadach a ní an duine" ??

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 02:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So, let me see if I've got this correct:

We're discussing the beauty, or lack of it, in language. Then we get Der Schein bestimmt das Bewusstsein which I try to translate as The light determines consciousness, which then Dennis indicates [in other words] is from Old Irish Is é an t-éadach a ní an duine, which seems to mean "clothes make a man."

The light determines consciousness,

Clothes make the man,

These have something to do with beauty in language? Go figure.

Γιατί είναι το μπλε ουρανού

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 04:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I studied French for 8 years and speak it more or less fluently, and although I love the language I have to concede that I don't find it particularly beautiful, depite the fact that it's commonly considered one of the most typically beautiful languages to hear.

I find regional ways of speaking to make all the difference in the world, though. For me, the French of Paris is horrendous to the ear: it's like a monotone machine-gun-like barrage of syllables. The French of the southwest, on the other hand, is expressive and has some soul to it.

In a similar vein, I actually love the sound of well-spoken German: it's precise, clear, has some real force force to it, and is not particuarly gutteral. Dutch on the other hand has some gorgeous tripthongs but sounds "messy" with all the hissing and spitting.

In the end it's all subjective.

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Riona
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 08:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is indeed subjective, different people find different languages beautiful, though it seems that there are some stock languages that people immediately categorize as being such. I agree with you though a Mhic that language has beauty to be heard in it. We must have more artsy minds than our scientifically oriented friends, both are very valid ways to look at the world.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Mac Léinn na Gaeigle (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We must have more artsy minds than our scientifically oriented friends

A Riona,

Caithfidh mé rud eigin a rá thú - is innealtóir mé, ach is maith liom a shíl go bhfuil mé "artsy" freisin. (I wish!) Ach, tá "artsy mind" agat cinnte!

Conas dearfa "artsy" as Gaeilge?


FRC - GRMA

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Riona
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA a Mhic, ta tu deas.

I couldn't find how to say artsy as Gaeilge. Ta bron orm.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 09:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Chúaigh mé go dti www.englishirishdictionary.com agus chonaic mé alaíonta = artistic. Níl fhios agam, ach b'fheidir go bhuil an ceart aige?

Ar aon chaoi, Oiche maith. Feicfidh mé thú amárach.

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Aindréas
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Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd love to read that piece by Tolkien. Maybe I can pick up the book (The Monsters and the Critics?) at the library. I think it brings up a good point. People can certainly develop a beautious opinion of a language based on the sound alone, while an opinion of their native language is combined with the meaning, and they usually don't know it.

Most would say the word "mother" is beautiful. But why ... because of its associated meaning. Not many native English speakers I think would make a stance to say that "rape" is a beautiful word. You get the idea ...

I've never really cared enough to dig into why I would call one language more beautiful than another. I don't know why I think Irish is beautiful, or Welsh, or anything. But I think it makes a huge difference if you speak the language indeed. I'd like to see all of what Tolkien had to say on the subject. Although I know he didn't care much for Irish.

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Jonas
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 04:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As many of you have pointed out this is very subjective. To take just one example, I've picked the distinction between /e:/ and /ie/. In almost any language group, you'll find that closely related languages - or dialects of the same language - are distinguished by this sound.

In Irish, we have the Munster pronunciation of 'éa', giving us féar /f´i@r/ compared with /f´e:r/ in other dialects.

I guess most you are familiar with Spanish 'bien' and Italian 'bene'.

The main distinction between Croatian and Serbian is that Croats say 'lijepa rijeka' and Serbs 'lepa reka'.

Finns say 'mies', Estonians say 'mees'.

Most Swedes say 'trädet' as /tre:de(t)/ while some would say /triedi/.

So, this distinction exists in many languages, but which version is more beautiful? As you all know, I love the Munster dialect and think that /f´i@r/ sounds better than /f´e:r/. On the other hand, I definitely prefer Catalan and Italian 'e' to Spanish 'ie'. As a native speaker of Standard Swedish, I think the 'ie' sounds aren't pleasant to my ear. Yet, having learned Croatian but understanding Serbian, I prefer the 'lijepu rijeku' to the 'lepu reku'.

Is there any logic to this? Perhaps it is, but it has nothing to do with the sound itself. The alternative that I've known first is often the one I prefer. Or perhaps I should say that I do like 'e' better than 'ie'. I think Estonian 'mees' sounds better than 'mies' and I prefer Italian 'bene' to Spanish 'bien' - although I knew Finnish and Spanish long before Estonian and Italian. So a preference for 'e', but other factors make me prefer the /ie/, /i@/ of Croatian and Munster Irish. That is why it's always hard, at least for me, to try to say what is truly beautiful.

(Message edited by Jonas on October 27, 2006)

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Jonas
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 04:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another funny thing that just hit me: I often prefer the Southern dialects of languages. Munster in Ireland, the Swedish dialects of Southern Sweden, the German spoken in Vienna is by far the most beautiful, Croatian sounds best in Southern Dalmatia and I agree with our guest that the French of Southern France sounds much better than Paris.

I wonder why? Is it because I associate it with the climate or with factors influence by the climate or is it just a coincidence? It's not that I simply prefer the prounuciation of the areas I like best - I prefer Zagreb to Dalmatia and Switzerland to Eastern Austria.

In the case of Croatian, the dialect of Dubrovnik is closest to the standard language that I have learnt and is easy to understand. In the case of French, I have to admit that a girl from Southern France had a major impact both on my rapidly increased knowledge of French and my preference for this variety :-) For the other languages, I've got no idea.

(Message edited by Jonas on October 27, 2006)

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Peter
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 05:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Dála an scéil, cá bhfuil Peter?



Tá mé anseo :). Bím ag freastal ar an bhfóram ó am go ham cé nach mbím ag scríobh mórán.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Der Schein besstimt das Bewusstsein
The appearance determines the conciousness.

Marx wrote
Das Sein besstimt das Bewusstsein

Being determines the conciousness,

I was poking fun at Marx, and at

quote:

especially if dissociated from its sense



Maidir le "arty":
I don't think "ealaíonta" fits; "arty" people don't necessary do art.

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Peter
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A lot has been written to this topic. The so called "phonosemantics" endeavours to ascribe certain meanings to certain sounds or sound chains. This work is carried out on a global scale so that data of all the languages is studied. (I'm not sure of artificial languages, but if there are certain universal phonosemantic principles, the artificial languages must work whithin the same guidelines, since they are created by humans).

So it's quite natural to think that one language may sound nicer than another. Possible reasons include the ratio of consonants and vowels, constrictions on vowel chains/consonantal chains, the syllable structure (the whole lot that is usually referred to as phonotactics) and the sound inventary of a language itself, of course. In general highly consonantal languages (esp. Caucasian) are said to sound abominable, languages containing lots of vowels sound nice (e.g. Romance). But phonotactically viewed all the languages of Europe are very close (with exceptions of Slavic languages, maybe Finno-Ugric as well).

BTW, phonosemantics has a very important application in advertising. The so called "pseudowords" - possible brandnames - are coined so to rule out all possible misinterpretations, negative connotations etc. and to please the eye and the ear of the consumer.

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Jonas
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 06:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"In general highly consonantal languages (esp. Caucasian) are said to sound abominable, languages containing lots of vowels sound nice (e.g. Romance)."

Hm, well... :-) Few European languages are as vowel-rich as Finnish, but it's not like it's often mentioned as being particularly beautiful, not at least that I've heard :-) And Georgian is a very nice language in my opinion, I haven't really hard that much of the Caucasian languages to be able to have an opinion.

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Peter
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 07:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Finnish is a good example of a "beatiful" (used as a term :)) language. It can be argued that it has a relatively high number of vowels though (the Wikipedia points out that the diphthongs may be analysed as pairs of vowel phonemes, i.e. 8 monophthongs vs. 15 in French). the language is remarkable for its constraints on consonantal clusters. Finnish definitely sounds nice.

As for Georgian, would do you like to have the surname "MkrTchan" (t is pronounced)?

In fact Georgian is a very mild example, there are much more consonantal (up to 80 consonants) Caucasian languages including all sorts of ejective, pharyngalised (? the spelling), or both ejective and pharyngalised, etc. etc. with but a few (2-3 at a maximim) vowels.

Do you like the sound of a pharyngalised ejective labialised aspirated "s"? :) No? Stange.

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Peter
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Post Number: 292
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 07:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

From the Wikipedia:

quote:

The language contains some formidable consonant clusters, as may be seen in words like gvprtskvni ("You peel us") and mtsvrtneli ("trainer")



:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_language

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Jonas
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 08:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Exactly, that's the point I'm trying to make. In general, I would agree that a higher concentration of vowels would make a language sound better than a high concentration of consonants. Taking the three major language groups in Europe, the Romance would sound best, Germanic in the middle and Slavic languages would sound the worst. Within each group, Italian would be the most beautiful Romance language, no big differences in the Germanic group and Croatian/Serbian would be the most beautiful Slavic language.

Although all those facts actually correspond pretty much to how I see it, I still find Georgian sounding nice (as I'm sure you're all aware, seeing a foreign language in print and hearing it being spoken are two different things). And despite being Finnish, I don't Finnish sounding as beautiful as its vowel-richness would suggest, mostly because of the very even tone used.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 08:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Could it also be a factor that you understand Finnish perfectly, and therefore hear the sense, not the music?

That seems to me to be a big factor.

And the tone questions seems to come back to what FnaB said about accents.

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Jonas
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 08:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mar a scríobh Ó Ríordáin :-)

Ach tá an ceart agat, ní féidir liom Fionlainnis a chloisint, ní cloisim ach na focail. Tuigim Fraincis, áfach, agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil an teanga san ana-dheas.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 09:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Aindréas: People can certainly develop a beautious opinion of a language based on the sound alone, while an opinion of their native language is combined with the meaning, and they usually don't know it.

That's precisely why I think languages are beautiful. My opinion is based on sound, and its associated rhythm, timbre, etc. But I also understand the point being made that if you comprehend the word, and it's a negative word, then that has a countering effect on any beauty of the sound.

But I think there's something else going on besides vowels and consonants. For example, whenever I hear someone from southern India speak, I think they're singing, whether it's in English or their native tongue. It sounds so beautiful to me, almost like a song. The Irish way of talking also has this quality. There's a certain lilt or singing nature to the way they speak.

Also, what about rhythm? How does this play into the aesthetic nature of languages?

I got rhythm, I got music, I got my girl, who could ask for anything more! Ira Gershwim

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 09:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's an article on the language of India entitled "LANGUAGE, GRAMMAR TEACHING, AND BEAUTY" that can be read at http://www.languageinindia.com/april2004/grammarbeauty1.html

An example from the article which I would find beautiful is naan malayalamaanu pathikkunnatu. By just reading this phrase I can hear how beautiful it must sound.

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Pádraig Óg (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fear na mbróg wrote:
"I can't stand the sound of South African English (particularly spoken by "Cape Coloureds" -- and I mean no disrespect in using that term to denote the demographic in question), it sounds utterly disgusting to my ear."

You earlier suggested that accents rather than languages should be considered for degree of niceness, rather than languages. I agree. Your example of Scotland - the English spoken in Edinburgh I find a lot more attractive than the English of Glasgow. And in Ireland, the English of the south-west more attractive than the English of Dublin.

In South Africa, the situation is more complicated because there are many languages affecting the accent of the the English spoken there. For instance, the vast majority of "Cape Coloureds" actually speak Afrikaans as their first language. So their accent when speaking English is strongly affected by the very gutteral Afrikaans accent. Afrikaans is based on Dutch. There is also a fairly high content of slang in their English, derived from both Afrikaans and some of the indigenous African languages. By the way, "Cape Coloured" is not considered a derogatory term. An alternative would be "mixed-race".

South Africans of Irish/British etc descent speak English with an accent broadly similar to Australian and New Zealand accents. And the accent varies with social class/education. At the higher end, it can sound almost like the English spoken in the Home Counties of England. At the other end, it can be quite gutteral, being affected by Afrikaans influenced English.

Descendants of Dutch/Huegenot "settlers" in South Africa speak Afrikaans as their first language. They speak English with a heavily gutteral accent, similar to the accent of a Hollander (or even sometimes a German) speaking English. Again there is a noticeable social class/education continuum.

Indigenous African South Africans in general speak English heavily accented by their own African Bantu languages. There is also the social class/education continuum, with some speaking very English South African English, and some speaking Afrikaans accented English, depending on where they were educated.

There are also about one million South Africans of Indian descent, largely concentrated around Durban (Mahatma Gandhi lived there for a time before returning to India). They speak English heavily accented by the Indian languages (mainly Hindi and Gujarati I think) of their recent ancestors, and to some extent by Afrikaans.

I guess this is the same within most languages. Various influences change the accents, and have varying degrees of "niceness".

By the way, I am of Irish descent (both parents born in Ireland) and was born and brought up in South Africa. Although I have been out of Africa for decades, I still speak with a "mild" South African accent. I was christened Pádraig, and have been known all my life as "Paudie". When in Ireland I introduce myself as Paudie or Pádraig using an Irish accent, and elsewhere, as Paudie using a "mild" South African accent:-)) Just to complicate things, I now live in Australia.

What do I think of South African accents. I guess, the more gutteral, the less attractive. I suppose if I was Afrikaans speaking, I'd think differently.

What about people speaking as Gaeilge ? Are there attractive/unattractive accents through the country, notwithstanding the different dialects?

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Do you like the sound of a pharyngalised ejective labialised aspirated "s"?"

Well I develope one of them every time I have the flu.

There is a certain shallowness to this thread, another example of not meeting another culture on its own terms, but rather in the easy to reach places

"Language has no equal, let alone a rival. Language can and does absorb the beauty of a thing/being just as the blotting paper does with the ink"

???............

As for vowel to consonant ratio, try Hawaiian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_language#Pronunciation

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Gavin
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have been reading this post for a while now and I find myself agreeing with both MAC and Jonas...

There is no question that the beauty of a language is personal, and what makes a language beautiful will differ from person to person.

However, I think Jonas is very correct in bringing out the point of "vowels" being a major factor in a person's acceptance to the language.

The type of vowels are critical...using the example above with the "Italic" languages...Italian and Spanish might sound more beautiful than French and Portugese not because of the vowel usage...rather the vowels being used. Spanish and Italian tend use pure broad vowels that tend to be found in many of the world langauges...

French and Portugese use these vowels also, however, they also use vowels that are not common...and this allows more room for rection because these sounds are alien to most people.

Personally, I think the appeal of a language comes not only from the sounds of the language, which is very important, but also the relationship the language has with the culture that is speaking it. I think Russian is a great example, look at the love and pride the Russian people take in speaking their language. You don't find that with a good majority of the English speaking world.

And while I love Irish, look at the divisions both culturally and politically that it has caused and the effect it has had on the Irish culture. Granted there is a lot more to this, the fact remains that the Irish language is one variable that is dividing the people. And that could make the language seem "ugly" to some people because they don't want to get involved with such and "ugly mess."

Languages are like looks, first impressions are everything.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For females, i'd say Conemara and Donegal appear the most pleasant. Younger southern natives dont sound a lot different to the local english speakers, so its a null question there. Mayo speakers can be a bit flat

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Dennis
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Has anyone mentioned the fact that most foreigners seem to find Brazilian Portuguese much lovelier than the continental variety? Nach bhfuil na gutaí céanna acu beirt, sna háiteanna céanna sna focail chéanna? Ach tá cuid de na consain níos "séimhe" in Rio, nach bhfuil? Ní dhearna mé aon staidéar ar an teanga sin riamh.

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Mack, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cailín as Ipanema - Carlos Antonio Jobim abú!

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Gavin
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have heard that too Dennis,

In fact, I think that can be used to illustrate the point of vowel importance because Brazilian Portuguese has assimilated many linguistic sounds into it that the continental dialect hasn't...I am not an expert on the subject by any means, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the African influence of broad vowels is creeping more and more on the standard pronunciations.

Rio's dialect of Portuguese, where the majority of the population comes from African backgrounds, is said to be the one the most pleasant sounding dialects of the language.

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Gavin
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 01:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sorry I was going to add that I have always liked the sound of Connemara Irish...and if a lady is speaking it...all the better ;0)

But believe it or not...the one person that I heard speak Irish, that will forever stand out in my mind as being the most beautiful Irish ever spoken...was a lady I met in Derry.

Now it could have been that she was attractive, and it could have been her cute Derry accent...I am partial to it. But she was one of the few people I met on that particular trip that was a fluent speaker and openly proud to do so. She said it best when she said, "...I speak Irish and if you don't like it f*** off..."

Hmmm...what can be said about the passionate tongue of those innocent Irish lassies ;0)

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 01:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I speak Irish and if you don't like it f*** off!

Now if we can only translate that into Irish, we'd have a great bumper sticker!

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 03:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, i tell you, the east Ulster speaker of Irish is not beautfil -one of the ugliest accents can be found in Armagh -when they speak irish its awful

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Gavin
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 04:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

...LOL...

Well BRN I guess MAC said it best, to each their own :0)

Given their location, the fact they try is more than enough for me.

As for the bumper sticker idea, I think we might be able to...I have been told "imigh leat" is the Irish equal to her choice of wording. Although to be honest, I don't really think it has the same feeling to it.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 27, 2006 - 05:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Well BRN I guess MAC said it best, to each their own :0) "

Oh , right; so this is open to anyone, not just native speakers. Well then, Russian speakers of Irish are quiet nice

"Given their location, the fact they try is more than enough for me."

OK. Thaw may egg shkreev. Can I have my medal now?

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 02:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Now if we can only translate that into Irish, we'd have a great bumper sticker!"

This seems ripe for a contest. Submissions, please? :)

As to Dennis's point regarding Brazilian vs. continental Portuguese, I am not surprised. One good friend of mine is an American woman who was raised in Spain by an Italian father and an Irish-American mother. Her mother tongues are English, Spanish and Italian. She is one of the most open-minded, non-judgemental people I know and she absolutely cringes at the sound of Portuguese.

So, there it is for what it's worth. Personally I don't get it, but there it is. Who knows what drives her reaction.

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Jonas
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 05:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's interesting to see how different we can think about certain things. Gavin mentioned that people might think that Italian and Spanish sound more beautiful than French and Portuguese and it seems like others agree. Dennis mentioned the Portuguese of Brazil as being more beautiful than European Portuguese.

I firmly disagree with both views :-)

As I've already said, I think French is one of the most beautiful languages in Europe. So is Italian. Portuguese is not among the most beautiful, somewhere in the middle. In my opinion, Spanish is one of the ugliest languages in Europe. Possibly the ugliest, at least I cannot at the moment think of a language that sounds worse in my ears. As for Portuguese, the European variety sounds much better to me. Every person I know with a knowledge of Portuguese have said that the Brazilian variety doesn't sound as good as the European one, so obviously there is quite some disagreement here ;-)

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Gavin
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Jonas,

I guess one could say that is the "beauty" of this thread.

Just to share our thoughts about how we see languages. For myself, I would have to agree that Spanish is not in the top ten favorites...but this is nothing against the language or people. Like Irish, Spanish is starting to be forced on students here in the US.

So I might have a mild rejection to it the same way a student in Ireland might not agree with Irish. But then that goes back to what I was saying about the relationship between the language and the speaker speaking it.

And I love the sound of French...I have always thought that French is a unique blend of familiar and exotic. I mean it has the basic characteristics of all the Italic languages, but the moment you hear someone speaking it you instantly know you are hearing something different. In fact, I wanted to learn French in school, but they stopped the program before I was able to do it.

We really haven't mentioned them here yet...but how do the people here feel about tonal languages like Swedish and Chinese? Myself, I do not like the sound of any Chinese dialect. If I had to learn an Asian language it would definitely be Japanese.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This seems ripe for a contest. Submissions, please? :)

Oh, I love contests - maybe I'll win one someday. A Gavin, I would think that "imigh leat" is correct, but it just doesn't seem to have that extra "poetic" nature of the woman's original expletive. Just my opinion, that's all. Here's my somewhat feeble attempt:

Tá Gaeigle agat agus mura ní maith leatsa é..imigh leat!

I don't think "mura" is correct above, but I thought I would try. Did I win, did I win, did I win??? CALM DOWN A MHIC, the contest just started!

FRC - GRMA

P.S. I suggest we copyright the bumper sticker and give all proceeds to Daltaí.

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Peter
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Post Number: 293
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 10:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Has anyone mentioned the fact that most foreigners seem to find Brazilian Portuguese much lovelier than the continental variety? Nach bhfuil na gutaí céanna acu beirt, sna háiteanna céanna sna focail chéanna? Ach tá cuid de na consain níos "séimhe" in Rio, nach bhfuil? Ní dhearna mé aon staidéar ar an teanga sin riamh



The variety in Brazil differs greatly from the continental Portuguese. First and foremost it's vowel reduction unknown in Brazil that makes these two sound (my personal experience) quite different, and yes, I totally agree Brazilian (Rio) Portuguese is much lovier.

Listen to Astrud Gilberto! Damn, that's the way a girl must sing.

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Mac Léinn na Clavé, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge Number of Pseudonyms: 29 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 10:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Listen to Astrud Gilberto!

I second that emotion! I don't know if this story is true, but rumour had it Jobim and company were recording "The Girl from Ipanema," and the featured singer wasn't available, so she got volunteered by her husband, (...Gilberto, famous in his own right) and that's how her career got launched. Any truth to that story?

But, anyway, if Astrud Gilberto sang in any language, that language would instantly become beautiful to me.

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Peter
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Mac Léinn na Clavé



I wonder how long it takes to master claves in full... Both of them. A real uphill struggle, isn’t it. Do you do a BA in claves, if you don’t mind my asking? It certainly requires much skill, talent, and profound grounding in musical theory.

quote:

But, anyway, if Astrud Gilberto sang in any language, that language would instantly become beautiful to me



Totally agree. It's high time she picked up some Georian.

(Message edited by peter on October 28, 2006)

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Mac Léinn na Bossa Nova, aka MLnG Number of Pseudonyms: 30 (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 02:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peter,

Excuse my naiveté, but I can't figure out if you're serious with your question about clave, or just poking fun. I'm an amateur musician and have been studying Jobim's music on and off for some years now, hence the pseudonym "Mac Léinn na Clave." You'll have to ask your question to a real musician versed in the subject to get your answer to question, but I find the latin rhythms fascinating and they do take time, at least for me to learn. You can find more information at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clave_(rhythm)


I did learn something new regarding the Bossa Nova at the above-cited website, that is:

The rhythmic pattern of the Brazilian Bossa Nova, developed in the 1950s, is also frequently called a clave because it resembles son clave. However, it is worth noting several factors that suggest that the similarity is purely superficial.

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Peter
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 03:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Definitely I am not serious.

I known the subject quite well, as I sometimes have the pleasure of participating in Cuban stuff gigs. That "pseudonym" of yours gave me a laugh. It sounded like "a classical guitar student", "a piano student" at a musical college. But if one knows what claves are - traditioanally one of the most limited percussion instruments (just a dozen of patterns is performed on claves!) - your nickname is a real laugh. Sorry if I failed to make myself clear enough.

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Peter
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 03:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The rhythmic pattern of the Brazilian Bossa Nova, developed in the 1950s, is also frequently called a clave



Do you really call that sort of syncopation "clave"? In Russia no one does. The term seems out of place here. In Brazil they don't use claves in samba.

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Róman
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Posted on Saturday, October 28, 2006 - 05:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My 50 cents' worth about Irish dialects.

I will concentrate on pronunciation of /d'/ and /t'/ in different dialects - as this is one of the most obvious differences between south, west and north.

So, I must admit my personal view (it appears) and of my peer I am teaching Irish is very much influenced by the experience of our native language - Lithuanian.

In standard Lithuanian, and the dialect we both come from /d'/ is pronounced exactly as in Munster. So with Munster dialect I feel at most "at home". The pronunciation like Conamara's is found in another dialect, speakers of which are even called "dzukai", exactly because of this habit saying /d'/ as [d'z']. This region of Lithuania is associated popularly with fresh air, big forests, a lot of wild berries and mushrooms - kind of rustic idilly. So when whenever I hear Conemara sound this rustic idilly springs to my mind and makes me smile. I like it, it sounds nice, but "too rustic" for me as urban dweller. I would adopt this pronunciation only jokingly.

The pronunciation in the north - like Béarla's "j" is alien to me and sounds "too Béarlish". Therefore, I don't like it. Instinctively, I feel Irish is threated by English, so I try to avoid too English sounding words and sounds.

On the other hand - exactly what I like about Munster - should be attractive for English speakers about North - those "homely" sounds they know from their own language. Maybe this explains why English speakers prefer Ulster pronunciation very often?

Just an idea.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 05:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ulster is probably the furthest from standard English pronounciation, so I dont know why you think it is similar. Slender d is not palatised for many speakers in Munster; in fact Munster is closest to the English of its hinterland in phonology.

If you mean that Ulster people prefer Ulster irish, well there is the identity issue there at work. If fact, you could probably find native English speakers in Ulster with more native irish sounds than some native irish speakers in Munster, given the phonological conservatism in the north

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 05:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Cellar door" for Tolkien

Maybe as he might have pronunced it 'cellado(@)' the o having an off glide, rather than with the r. It has a sort of fantasy book sound that way

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Róman
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 06:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ulster is probably the furthest from standard English pronounciation, so I dont know why you think it is similar.



Because /d'/ is pronounced like "j", and /t'/ like "ch". So pronunciation of "Dia d(h)uit" like "Jia ditch" is found in Tír Chonaill only. There are no sounds "j" and "ch" in Irish, except for Tír Chonaill. But those are exactly the sounds to be found in English too. This is what I meant.

quote:

Slender d is not palatised for many speakers in Munster

I beg to differ. If slenderness of "d" is not so easy to spot for an English ear in Munster as it is in Conamara and Tír Chonaill, it does not mean it is not there.

Is mise

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well is their d homo-organic with N' and L'? Or, is it like I drew on that other link?

Some people have posted here that slender d is not palatised by some speakers, so maybe they can chime back in again

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Jonas
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 02:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I agree with Roman, slender d is palatalised in Munster just as it is in other Irish dialects. It's not as strongly palatalised as in Ulster or parts of Connact and that makes it harder to notice for speakers of languages without hard and soft consonants (such as myself :-) ) but it certainly is palatalised.

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Jonas
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 02:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The five most beautiful European languages and the five least beautiful, that was what I thought to write. I want to be more positive, though, so I'll give you the seven most beautiful and the three least beautiful of the European national languages. I've put them in alphabetical order.

Europe's seven most beautiful national languages:
- Albanian
- Estonian
- French
- German (only Wienerisch)
- Greek
- Irish
- Italian

And so, here are the three languages I don't really find pleasant (I have positive experiences of all the countries, it's just the sound of the languages I'm talking about)
- Dutch
- Hungarian
- Spanish

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Róman
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 04:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hungarian?! Sem, sem soha! I lived so long in that country and I find the langage very melodious! the ratio of vowels to consonants is almost 1!

Jonas, please please, change your mind quickly! :-))

Dutch - agreed, to all complaining about German I suggest listening to Dutch starting with "Goeden morgen" ;-))

Spanish - absolutely, this incessant "j" sound everywhere. And beautiful French "jardin" [3] turns into "jardin" [x]. But the worst is word "mujer". I can't imagine nastier and uglier word to call such a beautiful being! I am indignated!

albanian - can you explain Jonas? the voluminous sybillants are usually not associated with beauty. Or you were arís dating some Albanian girl? ;-)

Is mise 7rl

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Jonas
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 05:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm sorry, Róman :-)

I guess the main reason I don't like the sound of Hungarian is the vowel harmony. For those who aren't familiar with it, it must sound so good, vowel harmony, but in practice it's not pretty at all.

I guess most people agree that low vowels* (a,o,u) sound better than high vowels* (i,e,ä,y,ö). The latter sound like a baby crying or like somebody whining - this is not only my opinion, I've even read some research showing that people prefer the low vowels. In my opinion, the best thing is to get some combination of both, that's what make French, German and Albanian sound good, lower vowels are very well combined with higher. In Hungarian or Finnish, put in one high vowels and you might be left with only high ones.

*I don't know the correct English terms, in Swedish we talk about hard vowels and soft vowels in school but I've never heard those terms in English.

To give an example. It was mentioned that Tolkien thought 'cellar door' sounded good. I think most people would think that this Finnish phrase sounds good.
"Vanhain miehen ajoin yli sillan" (I drove the oldest man over the bridge - not the most natural way to say the sentence, I took some poetic liberty...)

On the other hand, few people in their right mind would like the sound of this short exchange.
"Myönnätteköhän?" (But you do confess?)
"En myönnä mitään!" (I don't confess anything)

The problem with Finnish and Hungarian is that words like these are far too common.


Over to Albanian, then. No, I'm not dating any Albanian girl :-) Myönnän kyllä (I do confess) that having spent some time in Albania, I could not avoid noticing that the average Albanian girl looks better than the averaga girl in almost any other country (Albania share that honour with Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro, but that's a different kind of beauty discussion). But I was thinking only about the language now. I know that on paper, it sounds quite harsh, but have you heard it spoken? It's something completel different, and I was amazed that a language that looked so harsh on paper could sound so very melodious when spoken, but it does. When it comes to beautiful languages (as well as beautiful girls) Albanians can hold their heads up high. :-)

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déiridh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 06:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Chan fhaca tusa i leis na sùilean agamsa.”
Donnchadh Bàn MacIntyre

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Dennis
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Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2006 - 09:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.tbma.ca/article/multilingual-sound-clips-244.asp

Tá cúpla abairt simplí le cloisteáil anseo i seacht dteanga is fiche, ó Albanian go Vietnamese.

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

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Riona
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 12:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The truth of it is that the initial beauty that attracts one to a language, its mysteriousness and allure of the unknown, will fade into vague memory when one actually learns the language, meaning that if you want to know it, you must forget gradually about the beauty that may have brought you to it, just my opinion.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Róman
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 02:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riona - just to develop your idea. Even if you enjoy the sound of the language you will lose your appreciation of its beauty when you become well versed in language. From that moment on you just hear meanings, not sounds - and it is the meanings, shapes and pictures that can be delightful or repugnant for you. This is what happened to my German - I have no opinion on its beauty - I just hear what the speaker wants to say.

With English it is different. With pervasive CNN around - I don't feel anything about mid-west American (was it?) pronunciation. However all other varieties - like well-honed British that sounds so posh, or crindgy Scottish that makes me jump if it starts unexpectedly - I still hear the sound as well.

Is mise 7rl

(Message edited by Róman on October 30, 2006)

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Jonas
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 03:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't really agree this time, a chara. I too speak fluent German, and I've spoken it since I was a child so I've never been able just to listen to the sounds without the meaning. I still think Vienna German sounds very beautiful, even though I understand everything. Same thing goes for some varieties of Swedish (my native language), they sound very beautiful. So I definitely think it's possible to have opinions about the beauty of a language even when we know it very well.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Peter: Do you really call that sort of syncopation "clave"?

Yes, although I understand that the term is debatable as applied to Brazilian music, which is discussed in the link that I provided above.

But if one knows what claves are - traditioanally one of the most limited percussion instruments (just a dozen of patterns is performed on claves!) You may want to ask an expert in Afro-Cuban music for a better answer. They may be able to educate you on how important the clave is in their music.

By the way, I use "Mac Léinn" in most of my pseudonyms much like we would say "student driver" here in the US. "Student driver" doesn't mean that one is a matriculating student in a baccalaureate program. I know I've used the term "professor" incorrectly before, but I hope I'm not deceiving anyone into thinking that I have or am studying for BA's in all the pseudonyms that I use.

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Peter
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 01:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Jonas, it’s strange you shunned away Portuguese, and Polish, and Ukrainian. Each of the three deserves a place at the summit. The Northern variety of Russian, now practically lost, when sung in the traditional way (which is probably Ugric in origin, as it is not found even in the other Eastern Slavic cultures, but I heard that singing in Finnish) is really psychedelic.

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Peter
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 01:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Some people have posted here that slender d is not palatised by some speakers, so maybe they can chime back in again



BRN, you are right, as strictly speaking these Munster /t’ d’/ are said to be made without any upward movement in the area of palatum whatsoever, which implies the term “palatal” can’t apply here. They are described as apical postalveolar, i.e. they are articulated by the tip of the tongue against the area behind the alveolar ridge.

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Jonas
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Posted on Monday, October 30, 2006 - 03:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peter, I think Portuguese, Polish and Ukrainian (I hear two of them daily in the office) all sound nice but I had to make a choice. It doesn't mean all other languages sound bad, but those seven I listed are the ones I find most beautiful. Bosnian* and Slovenian are the two most beautiful Slavic languages in my opinion.

*With Bosnian I mean the pronunciation of Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian as spoken in Sarajevo.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 06:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peter, is the tongue shape I posted on the other link (the oi thread) an approximation? I cant post the link here as the site software thinks I'm spamming and boots me off for half a day at a time! It must be the random code on the URL that flags it

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Peter
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Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 02:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BRN, is fearr dhuit éisteacht le bean rialta as Port Láirge ag caint agus í ag an gclár deireannach “Comhrá” le Máirtín Tom Sheáinin ar TG4. Tá Gaeilge “an-Mhuimhneach” aice ó thaobh na gconsainí caola atá i gceist agad, bail ó Dhia is ó Mhuire uirthe. :)

(Message edited by peter on November 04, 2006)

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Peter
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Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Considering your drawings, I guest you've come real close to [r'], as to [d'] (Munster) you were right saying that the back of the tongue touches the hard palate (thus the tongue makes sort of "sagging" in the middle), though this thing is not shown in your drawing, I'm afraid.

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Alun (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 05:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Jonas,
From what little Serbo-Croatian I know I believe a Croatian could say lipo, lijepo or lepo depending on the area of Croatia.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 08:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peter,
I will come up with a new drawing.

Róman,
I think that slender d and t are like in English in conemara too. Does anyone have proof? I suspect psychology is intervening and people are hearing what they want as it is closest to them. Am I right?

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Róman
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Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BRN - but how can you explain that me as a single person hear sound in Munster and Conemara differently?

Me and my peer we go through Buntús Cainte at the moment and I can easily distinguish that speakers represent Conamara . Whereas in Pimsler's Irish or in Dillon's LP's it is completely different.

And as I said before - I will reiterate - both Munster and Conamara sounds are not alien to me. Both pronunciations are found in two different Lithuanian dialects. So I hear both these sounds almost every day, although "Munster" type is much more frequent I admit. Speakers with "Conamara's d" are called "dzukai" exactly because of this pronunciation.

Is mise 7rl

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 01:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think this conversation needs to be put to bed for the single reason that when in a post I make no reference to Munster, that Munster gets called into the converstion in the reply. I think it's agreed that Munster and Connacht are not the same. Conversation over.

As for Connacht and Donegal, both are like the affricative t and d in English, and seem to have developed once contact with English became frequent, even if there are slight differences between them. For all intents and purposes, I think Ulster and Connacht affricatives are same or simialar.

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Róman
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Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 03:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think Ulster and Connacht affricatives are same or simialar.

But they are not! :DDD
Conamara is more like [ts] sound and Donegal (at least younger generation) - [tsh] sound.

Is mise 7rl

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 06:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm all ears :)

I meant that, perhaps, diachonically, they can be considered the same. My reasoning was that Mhac an Fhailaigh gave Erris slender t and d as like ts' and dz' in english, but with the difference that they started out like the tradional gaelic t and d, but are slowly released, making them an affricative. De Búrca has Tourmakedy as the tradional one.

Donegal was once the tradional too -O Quiggan shows that in 'A dialect of donegal', but even a hundred years ago that was changing.

So are you saying that there is no hissing s, literially [ts] and [dz], rather than [ts'] and [dz'].

I was not discounting that there was a Conemara and Donegal phonetic difference; Donegal is more hissy. I am not clear on the sound in Conemara. So they would say something like this?:

[ɲiːlʲ ə tsɑːŋgˠə ʃo dzakiɼ] [ɲiːlʲ ə ṭsɑːŋgˠə ʃo ḍzakiɼ]

Ó Siadhail gives three sounds as non tradional ṭ ḍ ʤ, but also gives the broad and slender t and d, so it seems all I have to go on are symbols, and these are been sued variously. Any places I can hear them? Buntus Cainte?

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Róman
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Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 04:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BRN

As I understand it (I might be wrong), but pronouncing slender "t" and "d" as English "ch" and "j" 100 years ago was confined to north Maigh Eo (Iorras) and Tellin. Tír Chónaill traditionally was the same as Conamara. The "English" pronunciation has been spread by dramatic decline of native speakers' number and expansion of (English-speaking) learners' number, who find traditional slender "t" and "d" too hard to learn - so they lump for English sounds.

Now - please make sure you understand me. Notation [s'] is misleading as technically this notation means distinct sound in IPA than in Irish notations. So what Irish dialectologists note as [s'] is noted as "integral sign" or super-long "s" - this is the same sound as "sh" is English. So I will note it "sh" to avoid confusion. The thing which is known as [s'] in IPA is not found as a separate sound in Irish, only as part of "slender t" in Conamara. It is palatalised version of "s" (which is unequal to "sh"!). You can hear this sound in British (not American!) pronunciation of words "issue", "tissue", "sue".

So to recap - traditional slender sounds -

Munster - dental [d'] and [t']
Conamara - [d'z'] and [t's']
Iorras - [dzh] and [tsh] - English "j" and "ch"
Tír Chónaill - the same as Conamara

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Jonas
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Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 05:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Alun, you're right.

A Croat would say lipo if living on the Dalmatian coast, the islands or in Bosnia; lepo if he was living in far north; lijepo if he lived in Dubrovnik or if he was speaking standard Croatian.

A Bosniak could say lipo if living in Western Bosnia or lijepo if living in Eastern Bosnia.

A Serb would say lepo in most of Serbia, but lijepo if he lived in Bosnia or Croatia.

What I meant was that in the standard language, Bosniaks and Croats say ije and Serbs e.

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BRN (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 07:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ya -looking at the books, it seems I have been assuming a distribution of the Erris slender s that is not historically justified.

Here are a few pix:

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgk36dcn_6c8bqsf



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