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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:30 am: |
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A) is it a mood or a tense? B) is this how one might use it? Ba mhaith liom go raibh mé ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3958 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Tá B) mí cheart. Ba mhaith liom bheith ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta nó Go raibh mé ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3960 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjunctive Más an Modh Conníollach atá i gceist agat (ní béarlagar na gramadaí agam) is Modh atá ann! modh [ainmfhocal firinscneach den tríú díochlaonadh] bealach nó dóigh le rud a dhéanamh (modh oibre); iompar ceart (modh agus múineadh); urraim (modh don aois); measarthacht (dul thar modh le rud) (sa ghramadach) gné den bhriathar a léiríonn cé acu ráiteas, ordú, guí, agus araile atá i gceist (modh táscach, ordaitheach). |
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Abigail
Member Username: Abigail
Post Number: 105 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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Modh atá ann - ach 'sé "an Modh Foshuíteach Láithreach" is ainm dó. éireodh sé: an modh coinníollach go n-éirí sé: an modh foshuíteach láithreach Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3962 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 02:45 pm: |
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Tuigim. Is dóigh liom gur thug mé an freagra ceart thuas. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 03:59 pm: |
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Thank for the replies! So, it is that 'wishing' tense. The verbal noun is used in that function here: Ba mhaith liom bheith ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta bheith =verbal noun (doing the job of english infinitive here, I think) nó Go raibh mé ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta use wishing tense from the off (an modh foshuíteach láithreach) Go ndéana mé an rud ceart I notice in TYI (Dillon and Ó Cróinín version) that the question form has a negative; in the standard it would be 'an bhfuil tú?' and 'ná fuil tú?', what I take to be 'are you?' and 'don't you?'. Is the negative interrogative common/used? |
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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member Username: Maidhc_Ó_g
Post Number: 275 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 04:08 pm: |
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Subjunctive. But it's used primarily for wishes and curses. |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1243 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 04:46 pm: |
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quote:éireodh sé Don't forget the D and the apostrophe. D'éireodh sé! Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.
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Antóin (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 05:23 am: |
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quote "I notice in TYI (Dillon and Ó Cróinín version) that the question form has a negative; in the standard it would be 'an bhfuil tú?' and 'ná fuil tú?', what I take to be 'are you?' and 'don't you?'. Is the negative interrogative common/used?" That's Munster Irish. Ná fuil = Nach bhfuil = it isn't / isn't it Munster speakers tend to use standard spelling nowadays. I would recommend standard spelling for formal writing. "Ná fuil" is fine for informal chat or for dialogue. Just my humble opinion of course. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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Antóin, I agree that the Caighdeán is useful for reaching the most audience-wise; I also am not dogmatic in looking at how all the dialects do things as it would be no harm to be able to understand them, fá or fé for faoi, for example. I have another question about the indefinite or saorbriathar. For bí táthar bítear bhíothas bhítí beifear bheifí go rabhthar /g@ raf@r/ ??? bítear how does one do the negative indefinite? Just ní + verbal form? táthar ag rá ~somebody is speaking; níl táthar ag rá ~no-one is talking |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3968 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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http://www.csis.ul.ie/scripts/focweb/Exe/focloir.exe Cuir isteach "Tá" agus ansin brú ar an cnaipe "diúltach" táthar -> níltear |
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 74 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:40 am: |
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negative of tá is níl (< ní fhuil) So, negative of táthar is níltear (< ní fhuiltear) bítear > ní bhítear bhíothas > ní rabhthas bhítí > ní bhítí beifear > ní bheifear bheifí > ní bheifí bítear (imperative) > ná bítear go rabhthar (subj.) > ná rabhthar Lars (Message edited by lars on October 20, 2006) |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 03:24 pm: |
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I have one more question: what was the past subjunctive like, and what was it used for? |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 03:39 pm: |
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Some places are calling the past subjunctive the 'imperfect subjunctive' so it would seem to me like, 'Oh! that I used to be king!' Is mise rí bhí mé rí bhíoch mé/bhínn rí ba mhaith liom bheith i mo rí Ó, go mbínn rí??? ='Oh! that I used to be king!' Is the conditional the new home of this, or is gone alltogether? |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 06:50 am: |
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Useful element of Foclóir, thanks, A Aonghuis |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1804 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 01:01 pm: |
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quote:what was the past subjunctive like, and what was it used for? The past subjunctive (modh foshuiteach caite) is identical in form to the imperfect (gnáthchaite), but unlenited: imperfect: dhúnainn, d'fhágainn past subjunctive: dúnainn, fágainn Either the past subjunctive or the conditional is used after "dá" (the "conterfactual if): Dá ndúnainn an doras... or Dá ndúnfainn an doras... = If I were to open the door, had I opened the door NB: we're talking about three different verb "tenses" that very closely resemble one another, so much so that in the inflected forms of some words they sound the same. Mar shampla: conditional: go ndúnfainn imperfect: go ndúnainn past subjunctive: go ndúnainn Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 75 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 03:43 pm: |
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quote:Some places are calling the past subjunctive the 'imperfect subjunctive' so it would seem to me like, 'Oh! that I used to be king!' No, past subjunctive and imperfect indicative share only the same form (in most verbs). But it doesn't mean that past subjunctive has an imperfect meaning. quote:Is mise rí bhí mé rí bhíoch mé/bhínn rí ba mhaith liom bheith i mo rí Ó, go mbínn rí??? ='Oh! that I used to be king!' Don't mix up copula "is" with the verb "bí" (present indicative "tá"). You cannot say "Tá mé rí", as well you cannot say "Bhí mé rí" or "go mbínn rí". You must put "i mo" before "king". Past subjunctive of bí is "beadh" (1st person "beinn", = conditional form) rather than "bíodh" (1st person "bínn", = imperfect form) as one would expect. At least most books which mention past subjunctive of bí say so. (I don't know why.) There is only one past form of the copula: ba. Dá mba mise rí = If I were king. (or: Dá mbeinn i mo rí = If I were king.) Lars (Message edited by lars on October 21, 2006) (Message edited by lars on October 21, 2006) |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:58 am: |
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Thanks for that Lars. Could you give me an example of what it 'feels' to use the past subjunctive? Here is the table with an artificially created set of analitical forms, for the purpose of learning (for myself). What I want to know are a) the negative question forms right, b) are the autonomous forms right? They are respelled, for ease of use, just in case anyone is wondering Tá mé | Bíonn mé | Tá tú | Bíonn tú | Tá sé/sí | Bíonn sé/sí | Tá muid | Bíonn muid | Tá sibh | Bíonn sibh | Tá siad | Bíonn siad | | | Níl mé | Ní bhíonn mé | Níl tú | Ní bhíonn tú | Níl sé/sí | Ní bhíonn sé/sí | Níl muid | Ní bhíonn muid | Níl sibh | Ní bhíonn sibh | Níl siad | Ní bhíonn siad | | | ______________________________________________________ | táthar | bítear | níltear | Ní bhítear | an bhfuiltear? | an mbítear? | Níltear? | Nach bhítear? | _______________________________________________________ | | | | An bhfuil mé? | an mbíonn mé? | An bhfuil tú? | an mbíonn tú? | An bhfuil sé/sí? | an mbíonn sé/sí? | An bhfuil muid? | an mbíonn muid? | An bhfuil sibh? | an mbíonn sibh? | An bhfuil siad? | an mbíonn siad? | | | Nach fhuil mé? | nach bhíonn mé? | Nach fhuil tú? | nach bhíonn tú? | Nach fhuil sé/sí | nach bhíonn sé/sí | Nach fhuil muid? | nach bhíonn muid? | Nach fhuil sibh? | nach bhíonn sibh? | Nach fhuil siad? | nach bhíonn siad? | | | | | | | bhí mé | bhíoch mé | bhí tú | bhíoch tú | bhí sé/sí | bhíot sé/sí | bhíomar | bhímis | bhí sibh | bhíot sibh | bhí siad | bhíot siad | | | ní raibh mé | ní bhíoch mé | ní raibh tú | ní bhíoch tú | ní raibh sé/sí | ní bhíot sé/sí | ní rabhamar | ní bhímis | ní raibh sibh | ní bhíot sibh | ní raibh siad | ní bhíot siad | | ________________________________________________________ | bhíothas | bhítí | ní rabhthar | ní bhítí | an rabhthar? | an mbítí? | ní rabhthar? | nach bhítí? | _______________________________________________________ | | | an raibh mé? | an mbíoch? | an raibh tú? | an mbíoch? | an raibh sé/sí? | an mbíot sé/sí? | an rabhamar? | an mbímis? | an raibh sibh? | an mbíot sibh? | an raibh siad? | an mbíot siad? | | | nach raibh mé? | nach bhíoch mé? | nach raibh tú? | nach bhíoch tú? | nach raibh sé/sí | nach bhíot sé/sí? | nach rabhamar? | nach bhímis? | nach raibh sibh? | nach bhíot sibh? | nach raibh siad? | nach bhíot siad? | | | | | | | | | beidh mé | beach mé | beidh tú | beach tú | beidh sé/sí | beat sé/sí | beimid | beimis | beidh sibh | beat sibh | beidh siad | beach siad | | | ní bheidh mé | ní bheach mé | ní bheidh tú | ní bheach tú | ní bheidh sé/sí | ní bheat sé/sí | ní bheimid | ní bheimis | ní bheidh sibh | ní bheat sibh | ní bheidh siad | ní bheat siad | | _______________________________________________________ | beifear | bheifí | ní bheifear | ní bheifí | an mbeifear? | an mbeifí? | ní bheifear? | ní bheifí? | ________________________________________________________ | an mbeidh mé? | an mbeach mé? | an mbeidh tú? | an mbeach tú? | an mbeidh sé/sí? | an mbeat sé/sí? | an mbeimid? | an mbeimis? | an mbeidh sibh? | an mbeat sibh? | an mbeidh siad? | an mbeat siad? | | | nach bheidh mé? | nach bheach mé? | nach bheidh tú? | nach bheach tú? | nach bheidh sé/sí? | nach bheat sé/sí? | nach bheimid? | nach bheimis? | nach bheidh sibh? | nach bheat sibh? | nach bheidh siad? | nach bheat siad? | | | | | | | | | go raibh mé | | go raibh tú | | go raibh sé | | go raibh sí | | go rabhaimid | | go raibh sibh | | go raibh siad | | | __________________________________________________________ | | go rabhthar | | ná rabhthar | | ___________________________________________________________ | | ná raibh mé | | ná raibh tú | | ná raibh sé/sí | | ná rabhaimid | | ná raibh sibh | | ná raibh siad | | | | ná raibh mé? | | ná raibh tú? | | ná raibh sé/sí? | | ná rabhaimid? | | ná raibh sibh? | | ná raibh siad? | | | | |
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 77 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 03:35 pm: |
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quote:Could you give me an example of what it 'feels' to use the past subjunctive? Oh, I did: Dá mbeinn i mo rí = If I were king Dá ndéanainn m'obair bhaile = If I did my homework Dá ndéanainn arís é! = If only I could do it again! It is most often used with dá (and mura). Other uses are rare. E.g. D'fhan tú go dtagainn = You waited until I came (would come). (past tense of "Fan go dtaga mé! = Wait until I come!") quote:an bhfuiltear? an mbítear? Níltear? Nach bhítear? "Níltear" isn't a question. It is the answer for "An bhfuiltear?" ("ní rabhthar?" isn't a question, too) Perhaps you mean: "Nach bhfuiltear? = Is one not?" (and "Nach rabhthas?" and so on.) "Nach" requires eclipsis: "Nach mbítear?" (and Nach bhfuil ..? Nach mbeidh ... ?, etc.) Nár (past tense of nach, except with some irreg. verbs) requires lenition Nár thuig tú? = Didn't you understand? BTW: In Munster "ná" is used instead of "nach" (without any initial changes) Ná fuil sé? = Is he not? Ná tuigeann sé? = Doesn't he understand? Lars |
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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:11 pm: |
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Dá mbeinn i mo rí = If I were king The right hand side looks to me (a beginner so I appreciate the patience) like a past conditional, if there's such a thing. But I understand the form of the verb in the left hand side is, as Lars indicates, a subjunctive form. What would be the past conditional form in Irish for the same example so that I could better understand the differences, if any? Go raibh maith agaibh. |
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BRN (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:01 pm: |
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Thanks, Lars. What you are seeing is when someone is trying to understand an area that is (temporarily, I hope) out of reach, so in a sense, what you said prior, rolled off me. I'm getting it now. Dennis' examples were in danger of the same fate too. |
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Lars
Member Username: Lars
Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:21 pm: |
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quote:What would be the past conditional form in Irish for the same example so that I could better understand the differences, if any? There is no "past conditional" in Irish. There is only one form in conditional mood which is used with future, past or present meaning. Unfortunately there is no difference between conditional and past subjunctive of "bí": Both are "beadh". Or, perhaps you could say: "past subjunctive of bí is not used. Conditional mood is used instead". But that is a matter of opinion. (OK, "bíodh" is sometimes used as past subjunctive, as imperfect forms are used as past subjunctive with other verbs. Google: "dá mbíodh" only 392, "dá mbeadh" 48.000.) Let's take another example: dá ndéanadh sé é = if he had done it (past subjunctive) dá ndéanfadh sé é = if he would do/would have done/were doing it (conditional) Past subjunctive is very often replaced by conditional in Irish. The difference is one "f" ;-) Lars |
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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 07:03 pm: |
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Thanks Lars |
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