mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (September-October) » Archive through October 26, 2006 » Subjunctive present mood usage « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 09:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A) is it a mood or a tense?

B) is this how one might use it?

Ba mhaith liom go raibh mé ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3958
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá B) mí cheart.

Ba mhaith liom bheith ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta

Go raibh mé ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3960
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjunctive


Más an Modh Conníollach atá i gceist agat (ní béarlagar na gramadaí agam) is Modh atá ann!



modh [ainmfhocal firinscneach den tríú díochlaonadh]
bealach nó dóigh le rud a dhéanamh (modh oibre); iompar ceart (modh agus múineadh); urraim (modh don aois); measarthacht (dul thar modh le rud) (sa ghramadach) gné den bhriathar a léiríonn cé acu ráiteas, ordú, guí, agus araile atá i gceist (modh táscach, ordaitheach).

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 105
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 10:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Modh atá ann - ach 'sé "an Modh Foshuíteach Láithreach" is ainm dó.

éireodh sé: an modh coinníollach
go n-éirí sé: an modh foshuíteach láithreach

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3962
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tuigim. Is dóigh liom gur thug mé an freagra ceart thuas.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 03:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank for the replies!

So, it is that 'wishing' tense.

The verbal noun is used in that function here:

Ba mhaith liom bheith ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta

bheith =verbal noun (doing the job of english infinitive here, I think)



Go raibh mé ard nuair a bheidh mé fásta

use wishing tense from the off (an modh foshuíteach láithreach)

Go ndéana mé an rud ceart



I notice in TYI (Dillon and Ó Cróinín version) that the question form has a negative; in the standard it would be 'an bhfuil tú?' and 'ná fuil tú?', what I take to be 'are you?' and 'don't you?'. Is the negative interrogative common/used?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 275
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 04:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Subjunctive. But it's used primarily for wishes and curses.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1243
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 04:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

éireodh sé

Don't forget the D and the apostrophe.

D'éireodh sé!

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Antóin (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 05:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote

"I notice in TYI (Dillon and Ó Cróinín version) that the question form has a negative; in the standard it would be 'an bhfuil tú?' and 'ná fuil tú?', what I take to be 'are you?' and 'don't you?'. Is the negative interrogative common/used?"

That's Munster Irish.

Ná fuil = Nach bhfuil = it isn't / isn't it

Munster speakers tend to use standard spelling nowadays.

I would recommend standard spelling for formal writing. "Ná fuil" is fine for informal chat or for dialogue.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antóin, I agree that the Caighdeán is useful for reaching the most audience-wise; I also am not dogmatic in looking at how all the dialects do things as it would be no harm to be able to understand them, fá or fé for faoi, for example.

I have another question about the indefinite or saorbriathar. For bí

táthar
bítear
bhíothas
bhítí
beifear
bheifí
go rabhthar /g@ raf@r/ ???
bítear

how does one do the negative indefinite? Just ní + verbal form? táthar ag rá ~somebody is speaking; níl táthar ag rá ~no-one is talking

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3968
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.csis.ul.ie/scripts/focweb/Exe/focloir.exe

Cuir isteach "Tá" agus ansin brú ar an cnaipe "diúltach"

táthar -> níltear

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 74
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 11:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

negative of is níl (< ní fhuil)
So, negative of táthar is níltear (< ní fhuiltear)

bítear > ní bhítear
bhíothas > ní rabhthas
bhítí > ní bhítí
beifear > ní bheifear
bheifí > ní bheifí
bítear (imperative) > ná bítear
go rabhthar (subj.) > ná rabhthar

Lars


(Message edited by lars on October 20, 2006)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have one more question: what was the past subjunctive like, and what was it used for?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 03:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Some places are calling the past subjunctive the 'imperfect subjunctive' so it would seem to me like, 'Oh! that I used to be king!'

Is mise rí
bhí mé rí
bhíoch mé/bhínn rí

ba mhaith liom bheith i mo rí

Ó, go mbínn rí??? ='Oh! that I used to be king!'


Is the conditional the new home of this, or is gone alltogether?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 06:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Useful element of Foclóir, thanks, A Aonghuis

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1804
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 01:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

what was the past subjunctive like, and what was it used for?

The past subjunctive (modh foshuiteach caite) is identical in form to the imperfect (gnáthchaite), but unlenited:

imperfect: dhúnainn, d'fhágainn

past subjunctive: dúnainn, fágainn

Either the past subjunctive or the conditional is used after "dá" (the "conterfactual if):

Dá ndúnainn an doras... or Dá ndúnfainn an doras...
= If I were to open the door, had I opened the door

NB: we're talking about three different verb "tenses" that very closely resemble one another, so much so that in the inflected forms of some words they sound the same. Mar shampla:

conditional: go ndúnfainn
imperfect: go ndúnainn
past subjunctive: go ndúnainn

Caminante no hay camino, se hace camino al andar.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Some places are calling the past subjunctive the 'imperfect subjunctive' so it would seem to me like, 'Oh! that I used to be king!'


No, past subjunctive and imperfect indicative share only the same form (in most verbs). But it doesn't mean that past subjunctive has an imperfect meaning.
quote:

Is mise rí
bhí mé rí
bhíoch mé/bhínn rí
ba mhaith liom bheith i mo rí
Ó, go mbínn rí??? ='Oh! that I used to be king!'


Don't mix up copula "is" with the verb "bí" (present indicative "tá").
You cannot say "Tá mé rí", as well you cannot say "Bhí mé rí" or "go mbínn rí".
You must put "i mo" before "king".
Past subjunctive of bí is "beadh" (1st person "beinn", = conditional form) rather than "bíodh" (1st person "bínn", = imperfect form) as one would expect. At least most books which mention past subjunctive of bí say so. (I don't know why.)

There is only one past form of the copula: ba.
Dá mba mise rí = If I were king.
(or: Dá mbeinn i mo rí = If I were king.)

Lars

(Message edited by lars on October 21, 2006)

(Message edited by lars on October 21, 2006)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for that Lars. Could you give me an example of what it 'feels' to use the past subjunctive?


Here is the table with an artificially created set of analitical forms, for the purpose of learning (for myself). What I want to know are a) the negative question forms right, b) are the autonomous forms right?

They are respelled, for ease of use, just in case anyone is wondering


Tá méBíonn mé
Tá túBíonn tú
Tá sé/síBíonn sé/sí
Tá muidBíonn muid
Tá sibhBíonn sibh
Tá siadBíonn siad
Níl méNí bhíonn mé
Níl túNí bhíonn tú
Níl sé/síNí bhíonn sé/sí
Níl muidNí bhíonn muid
Níl sibhNí bhíonn sibh
Níl siadNí bhíonn siad
______________________________________________________
tátharbítear
níltearNí bhítear
an bhfuiltear?an mbítear?
Níltear?Nach bhítear?
_______________________________________________________
An bhfuil mé?an mbíonn mé?
An bhfuil tú?an mbíonn tú?
An bhfuil sé/sí?an mbíonn sé/sí?
An bhfuil muid?an mbíonn muid?
An bhfuil sibh?an mbíonn sibh?
An bhfuil siad?an mbíonn siad?
Nach fhuil mé?nach bhíonn mé?
Nach fhuil tú?nach bhíonn tú?
Nach fhuil sé/sínach bhíonn sé/sí
Nach fhuil muid?nach bhíonn muid?
Nach fhuil sibh?nach bhíonn sibh?
Nach fhuil siad?nach bhíonn siad?
bhí mébhíoch mé
bhí túbhíoch tú
bhí sé/síbhíot sé/sí
bhíomarbhímis
bhí sibhbhíot sibh
bhí siadbhíot siad
ní raibh méní bhíoch mé
ní raibh túní bhíoch tú
ní raibh sé/síní bhíot sé/sí
ní rabhamarní bhímis
ní raibh sibhní bhíot sibh
ní raibh siadní bhíot siad
________________________________________________________
bhíothasbhítí
ní rabhtharní bhítí
an rabhthar?an mbítí?
ní rabhthar?nach bhítí?
_______________________________________________________
an raibh mé?an mbíoch?
an raibh tú?an mbíoch?
an raibh sé/sí?an mbíot sé/sí?
an rabhamar?an mbímis?
an raibh sibh?an mbíot sibh?
an raibh siad?an mbíot siad?
nach raibh mé?nach bhíoch mé?
nach raibh tú?nach bhíoch tú?
nach raibh sé/sínach bhíot sé/sí?
nach rabhamar?nach bhímis?
nach raibh sibh?nach bhíot sibh?
nach raibh siad?nach bhíot siad?
beidh mébeach mé
beidh túbeach tú
beidh sé/síbeat sé/sí
beimidbeimis
beidh sibhbeat sibh
beidh siadbeach siad
ní bheidh méní bheach mé
ní bheidh túní bheach tú
ní bheidh sé/síní bheat sé/sí
ní bheimidní bheimis
ní bheidh sibhní bheat sibh
ní bheidh siadní bheat siad
_______________________________________________________
beifearbheifí
ní bheifearní bheifí
an mbeifear?an mbeifí?
ní bheifear?ní bheifí?
________________________________________________________
an mbeidh mé?an mbeach mé?
an mbeidh tú?an mbeach tú?
an mbeidh sé/sí?an mbeat sé/sí?
an mbeimid?an mbeimis?
an mbeidh sibh?an mbeat sibh?
an mbeidh siad?an mbeat siad?
nach bheidh mé?nach bheach mé?
nach bheidh tú?nach bheach tú?
nach bheidh sé/sí?nach bheat sé/sí?
nach bheimid?nach bheimis?
nach bheidh sibh?nach bheat sibh?
nach bheidh siad?nach bheat siad?
go raibh mé
go raibh tú
go raibh sé
go raibh sí
go rabhaimid
go raibh sibh
go raibh siad
__________________________________________________________
go rabhthar
ná rabhthar
___________________________________________________________
ná raibh mé
ná raibh tú
ná raibh sé/sí
ná rabhaimid
ná raibh sibh
ná raibh siad
ná raibh mé?
ná raibh tú?
ná raibh sé/sí?
ná rabhaimid?
ná raibh sibh?
ná raibh siad?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 77
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 03:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Could you give me an example of what it 'feels' to use the past subjunctive?


Oh, I did:
Dá mbeinn i mo rí = If I were king
Dá ndéanainn m'obair bhaile = If I did my homework
Dá ndéanainn arís é! = If only I could do it again!
It is most often used with dá (and mura).
Other uses are rare.
E.g. D'fhan tú go dtagainn = You waited until I came (would come).
(past tense of "Fan go dtaga mé! = Wait until I come!")
quote:

an bhfuiltear? an mbítear?
Níltear? Nach bhítear?


"Níltear" isn't a question. It is the answer for "An bhfuiltear?"
("ní rabhthar?" isn't a question, too)
Perhaps you mean: "Nach bhfuiltear? = Is one not?"
(and "Nach rabhthas?" and so on.)

"Nach" requires eclipsis: "Nach mbítear?"
(and Nach bhfuil ..? Nach mbeidh ... ?, etc.)
Nár (past tense of nach, except with some irreg. verbs) requires lenition
Nár thuig tú? = Didn't you understand?

BTW: In Munster "ná" is used instead of "nach" (without any initial changes)
Ná fuil sé? = Is he not?
Ná tuigeann sé? = Doesn't he understand?

Lars

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 05:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dá mbeinn i mo rí = If I were king

The right hand side looks to me (a beginner so I appreciate the patience) like a past conditional, if there's such a thing. But I understand the form of the verb in the left hand side is, as Lars indicates, a subjunctive form. What would be the past conditional form in Irish for the same example so that I could better understand the differences, if any?


Go raibh maith agaibh.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

BRN (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks, Lars.

What you are seeing is when someone is trying to understand an area that is (temporarily, I hope) out of reach, so in a sense, what you said prior, rolled off me. I'm getting it now. Dennis' examples were in danger of the same fate too.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 78
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 06:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What would be the past conditional form in Irish for the same example so that I could better understand the differences, if any?


There is no "past conditional" in Irish.
There is only one form in conditional mood which is used with future, past or present meaning.

Unfortunately there is no difference between conditional and past subjunctive of "bí": Both are "beadh".
Or, perhaps you could say: "past subjunctive of bí is not used. Conditional mood is used instead".
But that is a matter of opinion.
(OK, "bíodh" is sometimes used as past subjunctive, as imperfect forms are used as past subjunctive with other verbs. Google: "dá mbíodh" only 392, "dá mbeadh" 48.000.)

Let's take another example:

dá ndéanadh sé é = if he had done it (past subjunctive)
dá ndéanfadh sé é = if he would do/would have done/were doing it (conditional)
Past subjunctive is very often replaced by conditional in Irish. The difference is one "f" ;-)

Lars

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 07:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks Lars



©Daltaí na Gaeilge