In a recent discussion, I was asked "Aside from its sentimental value, is there any reason not to moribund-ify Irish?"

It's obviously so easy to get impassioned about this and cry out how we need to reclaim our roots and save the last link to our true culture and selves. I told this fellow I'm not the one to debate with, but let me ask here. Why should we revive Irish? What would Ireland look like as completely bilingual society? What are the benefits? Why not let it die? What is our hard and fast logic for preserving what we obviously love so much? Why not just document the language then let it slip into distant memory? How will a "revival" change Ireland for the better? What do you invision? And what do the scholars say, on both sides?

Oi, lots of questions. But, have you ever doubted your work or pursuit in this area? I know I often chew over the what if of me studying a more widely spoken language ... I don't know why I'm so drawn to the Celtic languages, and I often ask myself what's the point. What do you say?

I probably shouldn't answer here since everything I say will not have any proof or provable element.

It is exquisite, that is why. I don't know of many things more beautiful and entrancing in the world. Not to mention that it is so old and traditionally important.

I havn't any ancestral obligations to it that I'm aware of. I don't feel it to be in any geneological way obligatory, but I'm pulled by something. That won't stand up with any intellect or skeptic, but that is how it is to me. Its like the rolling of the hills and the edges of the rocks as they are drenched by the sea, Bearla is not like that on the land. I'm more proud of the little bits of Irish I know than of many other things that I know more of. I learned that for sure in Eire when I visited.

Beir bua agus beannacht

As an Irishman whose first language is English, I, like many of countryman, have almost lost any ability to communicate through Irish, and am now trying to regain what I have lost.

One of the prompts to do this was my realisation that the Dublin version of Hiberno-English that I grew up with was also being lost. My interest in this, my "native" dialect, made me realise how much it relied on the speech patterns and grammar of Gaeilge and thus renewed my interest in Gaeilge.

When I was in my teens I happened to be on holiday in the Isle of Man on one occasion. It was 1974 and the death was announced of Ned Madrell, who was the last native speaker of Manx Gaelic. I felt very sad about that at the time. Although there has been some effort in reviving Manx, something was lost forever with Ned's death.

We are in the happy position that our language is still a living community language. Yes, it is threatened, but I don't believe that there are many Irish people, who would wish to consign our language to the linguistic dustbin.

It is not a lost cause. I understand that Finnish, for example, was on the verge of extinction and was successfully revived as a community language

To use an old Dublin expression; "there's me three ha'apence worth for ye now"

I grew up speaking Irish in Dublin, part of a scattered network of people who did.

I believe the fact that I grew up bilingual was an advantage in learning other languages (I speak fluent German and rusty spanish), and in my profession. (I'm a software engineer).

Irish is on most people doorsteps in Ireland. Nobody is more than a few hours from a real Gaeltacht; TG4, RnaG etc are available at the turn of a dial or press of a button.

It is a shocking waste that more people don't reach out for the advantage of bilingualism, with the added plum of giving a sense of identity which ties into placenames, names, history, music, song, poetry, .... and is capable of being independent of any political point of view.

There are Irish speakers across the political spectra in Ireland - from communists to the immigration control platform, from republicans to unionists.

Anglophones frequently lose sight of the fact that monoglots are the exception, rather than the norm.

non-romantic, practical reasons-

a) it would help the irish mantain a sense of national identity in the face of huge waves of immigration coming down the pike

b) it would preserve as a living language the tongue of the oldest non-classical living literature in europe - important not only to scholars and anthropologists but should be important to europeans as a whole, considering the role the irish played in european affairs, religion and politics after the fall of rome.

c) it would send a message that governments forcing subjected populations to linguistic or cultural abandonment (or taking steps toward linguistic or cultural eradication of said population) can never be allowed to succeed.

d) all the benefits of having a society bilingual in any two languages

e) it would allow for the irish at home as well as descendants of irish exiles and emigrants worldwide to have both a mark of distinction/identification as well as something to unify them (check out mexican president fox's speech where he claims speaking spanish instead of any other language even when resident in a non-spanish-speaking country is every mexican's "patriotic duty" - for purposes of building just such a cultural unity that transcends international borders)

f) as a culture, the irish would not lose their voice in societies beset by waves of immigrants following a policy similar to that of "e" above (ireland itself will soon find itself in this situation if it hasn't already).

g) humanity loses something impossible to regain or recreate when something ancient dies - be it a language, culture, music, political system...i read once that we are a species with amnesia, we've forgotten our own story. we know some of it, but far more of our own history than we currently know has been lost forever. every time something like the irish language dies we lose more.

I think Antaine's "reason (g)" is by far, the most important reason of all.

Whenever a language is lost, the loss is quite irreplacable and the whole of humanity is impoverished as a result. A unique mode of expression and perspective of our world is irretrievably lost with the loss of a language.

A loss that is of so great a magnitude, is hard to quantify in utilitarian terms nor is this neccessary. Utilitarian arguments about a topic such as this, tend to be made using shallow, narrow-minded modes of thought that are unworthy of serious consideration. Suffice it to say that whenever a language is lost, it is a loss for all of humanity.

"Utilitarian arguments about a topic such as this, tend to be made using shallow, narrow-minded modes of thought..."

Well said, and this is also precisely the mindset that brought about the deliberate squelching of Irish as a language to begin with.

To willingly permit Irish slip into extinction in favor of English would be the ultimate collaboration with and sell-out to the historic persecutor of everything and everyone Irish. (See the recent discussion elsewhere regarding 'Seonín').

Your mileage may vary, but I view that as a practical reason, not an emotional one, although it's difficult not to cast it in emotional terms.

I don't know...I had that as a practical reason ("C") with implications far beyond the anglo/irish conflict of the last eight centuries.

I did have a whole paragraph i cut before posting regarding language practicality and how any two languages would suffice for the benefits of a bilingual society whether it's an ireland speaking english and irish or russian and chinese - and they would argue that there is probably more practicality to the latter.

the notion that to demand practical reasons only, discounting the emotional or romantic is to, like a theoretical physicist or mathmatician, make arguments for actions in a "theoretical world on paper" rather than the real world inhabited by human beings.

A Antaine a chara,

Some good reasons there. In fact, everyone (Aonghus, Suaimhneas etc.) have come up with notably good practical reasons. A Aindreas, you can show your friend their points and maybe he'll think a little about it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Good for tourism..
Good for personal identity..

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it and will pass it along to the doubtful. =)

I would like to add a few words, although I am a foreigner.

The first thing I noticed about the English language in Ireland was its music, as if the language was moving on a different magma underneath. When I listened closely, I became aware of the differences in how things were said. As I learned my first Gaelic sentences, I realised that parts of the English were a direct translation from the Gaelic. My Irish teacher confirmed my observation. The first time I really heard Irish spoken was on the islands. I fell in love with the sound of it (which is why I would like to learn enough of it to be able to read).

A language is not "only" a language but an heritage, an identity. I recommend reading Kate Fennel's book Who Needs Irish.

Almost ten years ago now I stayed with a family in Dublin, to attend an English refresher course. The family had a little boy who took me to show the surroundings. As we walked, he told me that he would choose an additional hour of English the following school year instead of Irish because, as he said, he would be able to get a better job later on. Hearing those words from such a bright little person really struck me. I literally felt a sting in my chest! I also felt like a dinosaur. Our children seem to prefer English nursery rhymes to beautiful old folk songs: the English language is taught at a very early age to help them "get a good start" later on. I come from a small language, for which we have had to fight to preserve (especially in the west of the country that was under Italy after the Rapallo treaty). The poem "Grafted Tongue" could easily have been written by one of our poets, my mom's generation, because the situation was the same. In recent history, in the former state of Yugoslavia our language formally had equal rights, but the political reality was that everything was geared towards creating one language (Serbo-Criatian). A reporter doing a piece on our town for the national daily stopped to ask the bunch of us kids playing on the pavement what we would like to become when we grow up. I had just taught myself to read, so I answered that I would like to study our language. The man almost gasped and then said "And what good do you think that will do you?"

Someone in the thread mentioned how Finnish was revived. I believe the same thing happened with modern Hebrew.
There is no reason why the Irish language shouldn't prosper. It is such a beautiful language!

i dont know about finnish, but if Irish were to be revived as the national langauge it would bear little relation to the prior Gaelic tongue, at least for a few generations, as creating a facsimile would be impossible. It has taken a long time for English in Ireland to approach the standard form

I am not sure what you mean by saying that it has taken a long time for English in Ireland to approach the standard form - did you mean to say that it would take as long or longer to standardize the Irish?

Ireland is an excellent position to fully restore the use of the language now that it is one of the official languages of the EU.

Slovenian language has 8 main dialects (and 48 sub-dialects), many for a body of only two million speakers (1.7 mil in Slovenia, the rest in Austria, Italy, Croatia, USA, Australia). The "standard" language started to form from the second half of the 19th c. The "prescribed norm" today is anything but 100 % reliable (and we have to live with that!). To illustrate: it took twenty-five years for an updated orthography to be published (perhaps because it was hoped that we would not need it again? the new orthography was issued in 2001 and when it came out it was such a mess that soon afterwards another fat volume was written, entitled "Correcting the new orthography"). The Irish language has but four main dialects. And our Irish teacher said that there are efforts to create a common standard, that it is being done in schools.

There's something that puzzles me though. At the Irish language course this summer we were shown a film about the language exams (leaving exams?) and the content (horrified examiner, a pupil running from exam, one teacher trying to get the boy back to the exam etc.) was amusing but morethan that it was depressing because it reminded me of home so much. Apparently many teenagers fear they won't do well at exams in Irish, so they hate them; in my country, the worst results for the final exams are those in the mother tongue... The only conclusion I can make: shouldn't teaching methods be friendlier? One hardly learns to love the language by having it shoved down the throat (having to memorize theory/rules, reading the "heavy" parts of the canon early on). Kids should have an opportunity to listen to stories, music, have fun using the language, be encouraged to PLAY with it. Again, I've no idea what it is like in Ireland. Where I live, there are tons of materials to choose from to teach English through play (songs, games), while the potential for teaching the mother tongue in the same (creative) way has only just started to be discovered.

A Mhedvh a chara,

It sounds like you have a lot of experience in the area of minority languages and trying to preserve them. Go raibh maith agat for your insightful posts.

The way Irish is taught at school is a problem indeed. According to what I've heard it is slightly better now, as far as more useful language learning techniques being applied but it has a very long way to go. Another problem is that kids often see Irish as not being necessary, why learn it if it is'nt needed to get by in Ireland, that sort of thing. That what-do-I-think-now attitude is one of the reasons why it would be shameful to make Irish an option instead of a requirement.

Beir bua agus beannacht

"I am not sure what you mean by saying that it has taken a long time for English in Ireland to approach the standard form - did you mean to say that it would take as long or longer to standardize the Irish?"

There was in Ireland an elite who spoke something akin to standard English by the 19th century (Anglo-Irish). The majority spoke Gaelic. When the switch started (perhaps with a form of trade language in many parts of the country) Irish acted as a filter, with the result some quasi-Gaelic grammar got into hiberno-English. Over time due to a need in public and professional life to appear respectable, Hiberno-English gave way to a more standard variety. The last 20 years has seen this go perhaps into the final phase, where the majority (on average) will be, in due course, speaking pretty much standard english.

One might expect if Irish was to come back, the same filtering of it might occur via english, and we see that when native english irish learn gaelic. If there were an elite who stringently required a standard, it might perculate down over time. If it were kept over generations, it might result in the (so-called) 'breac Ghaeilge' becoming 'fíor Ghaeilge' if the same terms of reference of standard/sub-standard varities (along the lines of what happened in Ireland) were to be part of the thinking of those involved.

However, in the English speaking world there was the US, the UK and a leadership who already provided a template and did so over centuries. There would be no such constraints on new-Irish, so it would keep its béarlachas as parts of its linguistic DNA, as it were. Given the time frame and all the history between 1750 (when Irish was the de facto national language) and say, 2250 (if it took that long), I'd say they would be two very different languages.

"Ireland is an excellent position to fully restore the use of the language now that it is one of the official languages of the EU."

Ireland is in no position as not enough want to change the first language. Irish people are proud to be english speakers, even if they have one of the lowest literacy rates in Europe, which limits the impact of it professionally (and under cuts the national phantasy that english is the b all and end all). It could be the offical language of the UN, but to no difference. As far as I feel, laws are only descriptions given to events people actually act out, or have the potential to be acted out. On paper it might look good, but it has yet to be seen how useful European recognition will be. If there are any high paid jobs going, I would want natives to have them so it empowers Irish.

"And our Irish teacher said that there are efforts to create a common standard, that it is being done in schools."

There is a standard, which most people accept. It is not a mixture of all 4 dialects, as such, but was designed to allow official documents to be in the other 'offical' language. To my mind, it can be arbitrarily rigid, as can be seen in the fetishisation of the 5 nouns (bos, bróg, cluas, cos, lamh) which are allowed to have dative and special forms in the genitive, instead of just allowing this to all feminine nouns ending in a velar(ised) consonant. That said, it is what it is, and can be used flexibly and with sensitivity.

"There's something that puzzles me though. At the Irish language course this summer we were shown a film about the language exams (leaving exams?) and the content (horrified examiner, a pupil running from exam, one teacher trying to get the boy back to the exam etc.) was amusing but morethan that it was depressing because it reminded me of home so much. Apparently many teenagers fear they won't do well at exams in Irish, so they hate them; in my country, the worst results for the final exams are those in the mother tongue... "

It's a part of Irish culture, and I wont deconstruct it more than that!

Does Ireland really have one of lowest literacy rates in Europe, I'd not have ever guessed such a thing.

Beir bua agus beannacht

That's surprising to me as well, although I suppose it depends on how "literacy" is being defined - the ability to read and write at all, or the ability to do so to varying degrees?

It's amazing to me that so many Irish don't give a fig about the language of their heritage, although I admit this is a personal issue.

This may be a touchy subject, so let me say at the outset I'm not trying to start anything here... but I've heard more than one person attribute this to a kind of low self-esteem at the national level; almost as though the victimization of the Irish by the English has brainwashed many Irish into believing that "Irish Anything Is Inferior," including or perhaps especially the Irish language.

(Message edited by domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on October 14, 2006)

A Dhomhnail a chara,

From what I've heard you're not too far off the mark. This inferiority complex about speaking Irish can be seen in some older people who may not want to admit that they speak Irish or who may answer a visitor in English even if they are spoken to by said outsider in Irish. I found some people in the Gaeltacht who didn't respond to my Irish but part of that could come down to the fact just because one lives in the Gaeltacht doesn't mean that one has any appreciation or proficiency in the language. Another reason for the non-responses may have been because my Irish being limited as it is I'd often use English and then thank whomever it was in Irish, one does not have to respond to a thank you. For the most part I got very positive responses form people when I mentioned I wanted to learn or used words. Most people thought that was grand and would open up to me considerably more than they had previously.

So maybe people who were previously affected by such an inferiority complex are finally realizing that speaking Irish is nothing to hide or be ashamed of, quite the contrary.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Riona,

While I have had the same experiences with natives of the Gaeltachts...it is funny that you bring up the idea that "just because one lives in the Gaeltacht doesn't mean that one has any appreciation or proficiency in the language."

You are absolutely correct in this statement, I have spoken with people in the Gaeltachts who are fed up with the notion that just because they live in a Gaeltacht...they should have to speak Irish.

But isn't this sort of the reason why they were created? To preserve and promote the Irish culture and language? I mean seriously, while there are many who lived there already...there is also huge number of people who have migrated into the Gaeltachts for one reason or another only recently, and these seem to be the people who are unhappy with "having to speak Irish." But how can you migrate to such an area and not expect to have to know the language...it's a Gaeltacht!!!

"This may be a touchy subject, so let me say at the outset I'm not trying to start anything here... but I've heard more than one person attribute this to a kind of low self-esteem at the national level; almost as though the victimization of the Irish by the English has brainwashed many Irish into believing that "Irish Anything Is Inferior," including or perhaps especially the Irish language."

You are 100% right here. This inferiority complex I think has been THE greatest influence on Irish character for 200 years or so. I think most Irish people have a very low opinion of themselves and their culture.
I think we as a people LIKE ourselves in many ways but we certainly don't RESPECT ourselves and, lets face it, the same goes for how we are seen around the world aswell - we're supposedly likable, witty, imaginative etc but we and our country certainly aren't respected. And why should we be when we don't respect ourselves and the great majority of our people are shamefully ignorant of their own language, history and culture. Most Irish people have a greater knowledge of the history of England or America than they would of their own country.
Ask someone who William Wordsworth was and I'd say most will at least know he was an English poet. Ask them who Aodhagán Ó Rathaille or Eoghan Ruadh Ó Súilleabháin were and they'll stare at you blankly.
Our unfortunate history has completely altered our national character. We were a proud, confident people before who took great pride in our ancestry, language, culture and renowned learning. Today we see ourselves as a weak, unimportant, inferior, lower class people, embarrassed at anything that marks us out as Irish (especially our accents).

Another rant but the attitude of most Irish people towards themselves based on an inferiority complex and ignorance makes my blood boil.

Hmm, this is interesting. I don't have much place to comment on Irish culture or society, but a lot of the time I just get this overwhelming sense that young Irish just feel second best to and only live to be as cool as England, or perhaps the States. The pinaccle or ideal which young people aspire towards is not found in their own country, heritage, and culture, which to me is where the inferiority seems to come from.

It's interesting with a lot of Americans I meet, they're often told by foreigners that Americans are dum, ethnocentric, narrow-minded, and arrogant as a culture (from the perspective of many Europeans), which makes these people I've met behave that way, in continual (sort of unintelligent) apology for being what they were born as. I get slightly ticked when people mock the US for being so monolingual, but if Oregon, Idaho, and Montana all spoke different languages of course I would speak something more than English. It's just silly to make fun of the US for being in the geographical situation it's in. We shouldn't be smitten to apathy, nevertheless. As long as each individual seeks to avoid that unfortunate stereotype, he has no need to be ashamed of America, and should be proud. The same would hold for other countries and cultures I think.

Funny, it is the French who hate the Americans the most, usually out of a projection of their own sins

Maybe it is not a matter of low self esteem, as much as it is a matter of a self identity?

I say this because I have never met an Irish person without pride. A bad attitude sure, but never have I seen a lack of pride in themselves and their country ;0)

However, the problem I have noticed, is that some Irish, especially the young, have trouble describing what it is to be Irish. And while this is a very common thing found in most countries and even cultures, the Irish really tend to struggle with this and I feel it is negatively affecting them.

While we hate stereotyping...it is a very useful tool. It can be used to single out traits associated with a culture. The problem with stereotypes is that they tend to come from a third party, and are often done in the negative. However, if done correctly...they can be used to help create an image of what it means to be Irish.

Now having said that, just about every stereotype out there for an Irish person cannot be used for a modern day Irish person. Why? Look at the stereotypes...picture in your head what you think it means to be Irish?

What picture do you see? Do you see just some everyday person, or do you see a cliché?

If you took an modern day Irishmen, Frenchmen, Englishmen, American, Russian, Australian, German, or Italian...could you really tell them apart by just looking at them? Or would you have to wait for them to speak in order to tell where they are from???

While in the modern world they may wear the same clothing styles, they may listen to the same music styles, and they may even share the same lifestyles...the Irish person lacks something that the others don't...a firm cultural identity because of their country's history.

Their cultural history did not develope, it was created. It was fabricated on the ideas of outsiders, and it was fabricated on the ideas of insiders...but the point is that it is not a natural identity but a fabrication.

Unfortunately, we live in the time that we do...I think we would all really approve of the Ireland in a few hundred years when there has been enough time to allow the Irish themselves to develope their own culture. Hopefully, Gaeilge will still be there...

"Gaeilge will still be there..."

If it isn't...I don't know that we'd approve. Without Gaeilge in 200 years Ireland may be no more distinct from britain than cumbria or cornwall are from saxon england. if wales and scotland don't watch and allow their language to slip the same will go for them. then both britain and ireland will be one relatively homogenous, english-speaking region - with the last remnants of the celtic nations blending as well as swedish settlers' descendants in delaware, or acadian descendants in louisiana.

A Ghavin a chara,

When I said that many in the Gaeltacht don't speak Irish it was meant as an unfortunate statement and that was all. I think you should need Irish to get on well in Gaeltacht, it seems wrong to move there if you don't have any. As a matter of concience I'd not live in one until I had at least decent proficiency in the language, that is if I ever wound up in Ireland :)

To truth it is difficult now adays to define what makes a person a certain nationality. Our world is getting so discustingly homogenized, this irritates me more and more as time marches forward.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Riona, I agree with you 100%.

Sadly...Ireland is a small country with a growing population, not to sound like a monster but the 1800's was a blessing in terms of population control. Had there not been mass migrations out of Ireland, and the sad deaths that happened...the Ireland we know today might be a very different place. I know that is a horrible thing to say, but it is the truth...

One thing that many modern countries that tend to be mainly Roman Catholic have in common is population control issues. And Ireland would be no different....

But eventually, people with the money to do so, tend to move out into the rural areas of the country to get away from the crowded city. And their money has its own language.

While it would be nice if they could respect the Gaeltacht and actively take part in the idea behind it...it is not realistic to expect it of them. Unless there are laws saying that they have to be able to speak the language or at least have a fluency of the language in order to buy property in the Gaeltacht areas. It's harsh, but it is also fair.

And with some of the people I have spoken with there, that is exactly what happened. When they fist moved there they did not mind speaking Irish. But after a while they started getting annoyed with it because they are not fluent enough to use it everyday and in everyday situations...one mother was very serious when she said she didn't like the idea of her kids learning to speak Irish in the schools because they were using it more at home and she couldn't communicate with her own children. She would get upset with them, and they would get upset with her...

Ireland still has time before the population thing really starts hitting them again...but it is going to start happening eventually, it always does. The Gaeltachts only exist right now because they have had the time to do so...but that time is running out.

"...one mother was very serious when she said she didn't like the idea of her kids learning to speak Irish in the schools because they were using it more at home and she couldn't communicate with her own children."

If I may be blunt, that's a bull$heet excuse if I've ever heard one.

She could lay the same asinine claim if her kids studied *any* language at school that she did not already speak. Would she have as big a problem with their studying Spanish or French, do you think? Somehow I doubt it.

She either doesn't value education or, more likely, she's a sell-out. Her kids deserve better.

From what I observed she is a good person so don't be too hard on the likes of her. It has been my observation that where there is one, it's a good bet there are more like them somewhere.

And there is a big difference when it comes to learning Irish rather than any other language in Ireland. If they are learning Spanish or French they do so from a second language perspective right from the start. Irish on the other is an official language of Ireland.

When students attend Irish classes in school, they are not learning a second language...they are learning their first language. The word official causes confusion because most people think that just means "in an official capacity." But by declaring it an official language, Ireland is saying that this is a language used by the majority on a daily basis.

Which is what I think is the great debate. Is Irish being used in Ireland by the majority of her people on a daily basis...frankly, I don't think there is a person here who can say yes outside of a Gaeltacht...and even then, it seems more used during the tourist seasons. Now I am not going to say it is not being used, because I have been there, and I have seen it being used year round by some people...

However, I am going to say it again and again...the numbers are not accurate. There is serious lie being told that a good majority of the Irish people speak Irish...this is not true...there is a good majority of people who know Irish. And yes, knowing a language and speaking a language are two very different things.

Three things caused the decline of Irish under the british gov't

1) that the government operated in english
2) that english was seen as the language of advancement - technologically, politically and educationally
3) that speaking english was far more economically beneficial (more business, more opportunity, etc) than speaking Irish

For all practical purposes, none of that has changed. Until at least one (particularly #3), if not all, of those situations change Irish will be at best a marginal minority language in its own country...

"When students attend Irish classes in school, they are not learning a second language...they are learning their first language."

I'm not trying to pick an argument, Gavin, but I disagree with that statement. Specifically, my difficulty is this: one's "first language" is the language with which one is reared. Agreed? Well, if Irish was these kids' first language, then almost by definition their own mother would speak it! She'd have to, in order to rear them to the point of going to school to begin with. So, I think I'm safe in assuming that this woman raised her own kids with her own native tongue: English.

And now that the kids are in school, learning Irish and using it - their Irish mother is annoyed because she "can't communicate" with her own kids? It's this claim I find ridiculous to the point of being laughable. If she were rearing her children to speak English -- as she must have been, since she's an English-speaking monoglot -- then the fact is they will speak English, fluently.

Again, what if they learned Spanish and proceeded to speak Spanish with each other at home, so as to confound their mother? Would she then be against the teaching of all foreign languages?

She may be a nice person, Gavin, but no matter how I look at this, at the end of the day three things are clear to me:
1 - she is an Irishwoman who is
2 - choosing to live in a Gaeltacht and
3 - would prefer that her children not be taught Irish!

I'll bite my tongue now!

No...no you are correct.

And that is what I was trying to get across, that there are people living in the Gaeltacht who do not, and do not want to speak Irish for whatever their reason.

This is only going to get worse I think. Because the number of people not speaking Irish is growing faster than the number of people who speak Irish. However, Ireland still claims that Irish is their first official language, which is a boast I would like to see be backed up by the government.

And of course the children can speak English...in fact, they spoke better English than most English do ;0) But as children do, they alienated their mother as soon as they knew they could do it with Irish. And she was complaining that Irish was causing tension in the family. I thought you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say...that is my fault.

did you tell her that the only solution was obviously for her to learn irish?

;-)

It is common for children to enjoy sharing something together that parents don't understand. It might be irritating but its typical. Also the kids probably aren't doing it specifically to annoy their mother, they probably like speaking it because that's how their friends speak, being in the Gaeltacht lets hope that at least some of their friends speak it most of the time anyway.

I kid you not, both I and my sister studied French and our parents don't speak a word of it. So what do you think we'd do when we wanted to say something "privately" just to tick off mom and dad?

Geeze! I'm sorry, but this lady really needs to get some perspective, realize that her shortcomings can't be laid at the feet of a successful Irish teaching program, and start taking responsibility for her own parenting. If she doesn't want the kids speaking Irish in her house, she needs to lay the smackdown on them, not whine and blame the Irish-language teaching program for being successful IN A FREEKING GAELTACHT! *lol* :)

Sounds like she'd be more at home in England! Oy.

(Message edited by domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh on October 16, 2006)

I suppose she would ;0)

But she is not the only person in Ireland who does not want to speak Irish...and that is scary thought ;0(

That makes me mad. But I'm also thrilled that kids are speaking Irish to one another unbidden. That mother needs a wack across the head. Or just a brain.

Amen to that. Good God.

This is a bit ironic. Here in the US it was not uncommon for Irish-speaking parents to use Irish when did did not want their American-born children to understand their conversations. I have examples among my own relatives.

"Here in the US it was not uncommon for Irish-speaking parents to use Irish when did did not want their American-born children to understand their conversations."

The same goes for other languages, at least as I have heard :-) But I would like to retell a touching anecdote which shows how people do feel a need to preserve their sense of identity and belonging. My friend's grandfather emigrated to the US from Germany because he did not want to live his life under a Kaiser. He settled in Maryland, where he worked on a small farm. He always spoke English with all the children and grandchildren, because this was "the language of political freedom". For years though, every now and then he walked off to the field where he had put up a tiny wooden shed. He would go there, bolt himself in and recite Goethe aloud for a couple of hours.

Hello,

Go raibh maith agat to BaRNí for the explanation provided a couple of days ago.
And Riona and everybody in this thread - your observations are very precious to me as I am trying to learn more about the Irish language situation alongside little bits of the language.
Go raibh maith agat agus for the really great anecdote about children using Irish as a code :-)

Oíche mhaith agat,
Medbh

Gavin, I don't think you're informed about the current problem with low birth rates in Europe and parts of Asia. Ireland has the highest birthrate in the EU but it is still below replacement rate, which means the population will shrink (though less than in other countries).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4768644.stm

"The population thing" that informed people are worried about is underpopulation and the possible decline or even death of cultures that do not reproduce themselves, and, sadly, anger towards cultures that replace the ones that are declining. This article for example mentions that more people in Scotland speak Urdu (the language of Pakistan) than speak Gaelic.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/the-terminal-decline-of-gaelic/2006/02/12/ 1139679474631.html
Other news articles have predicted the "Islamification of Europe" due to immigrant cultures replacing native European cultures

I also have never seen any evidence that the population in Ireland has ever been close to "getting out of control." And at present the best anyone can hope for is a birthrate at replacement level anyway.
Personally I think measures to bring birth rates back up to replacement levels could be a good thing for minority languages. I also think that a country where both original minority languages and immigrant languages are thriving would be a great place to live or visit.

(By the way, I "got into" languages because it was fun to know something my parents didn't know--and they never minded)

Which to my mind means that the final logic of the replacement theory is that the population should keep growing indefinitly

Huh?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/replacement

Replacement implies zero growth.

I meant replace and add. If a culture can only survive because it must increase the numbers participating in it, it is been made to sound like a) it is organic b) by following the logic to its ultimate conclusion, require an ever increasing number of people to sustain it.

Sounds like a virus; of course those 'memes' people might say culture is as much

I think that the reason the population is going up in Ireland so quickly is because everyone in Europe is moving there and thus the population of their countries is shrinking. I suppose that the shrinkage in said countries isn't huge due to immigration but it is none the less. I'm going to be very carefull here on this topic.

Beir bua agus beannacht