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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (September-October) » Archive through October 18, 2006 » Pronunciation of "dh" « Previous Next »

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 44
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 08:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Are there any hard and fast rules (or at least tendencies) regarding how to pronounce "dh"? I've heard it pronounced as "y", "g" and "gh".

For example, my very own first name: A Dhomhnall! How's it pronounced? uh yonall? uh ghonall?

Thanks!

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Fear an Iliomad Leasainm (aka Shawn MacLane, aka Mac Léinn na Gaeilge) (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 09:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhomhnaill, I think that your name is pronounced like "uh ghonall" where the "gh" sound is like the "g" in the Spanish word "agua." The "gh" sounds occurs when an "a," "o," or "u" follows a lenited "d" or "g." It's like you're saying a hard "g" as in "go" but you're gargling at the same time. Sorry about the lack of finesse in my description, but it's the best I can do.

The "y" sound as in "yonall" would occur when you have an "e," or "i" following a lenited "d" or "g." For example, in A Dhia (O God) the "dh" is pronounced like the "y" in "yet."

I'm pretty sure that you can find actual sound files in the Grammar section on this website.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1449
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 09:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You'll get almost all the sounds of Irish here:
http://www.phouka.com/gaelic/sounds/sounds.htm

(Message edited by Lughaidh on October 06, 2006)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aindréas
Member
Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 164
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 11:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's a really nice site Lughaidh; very helpful. Did you make it by yourself? Thanks very much!

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1451
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 07:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, I did that page (that's my voice, etc), but the website is owned by Phooka, who has kindly offered me to put that stuff on his website.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 08:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

It's like you're saying a hard "g" as in "go" but you're gargling at the same time.

That's a magnificent description! Many people when trying to explain the pronuciation of a gh or hard dh say something like it's the sound in "Bach", but in reality, any native English speaker just pronounces it "back" or "bock".

I think it would be great to suggest to a learner than they should try gargle when saying ch, gh and a hard dh.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Bearnaigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From:
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Practice while you brush!

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Fear an Iliomad Leasainm (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From:
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I think it would be great to suggest to a learner than they should try gargle when saying ch, gh and a hard dh.



I think that the gargle theory applies for "gh" and "dh" that are followed by "a" "o" or "u" because the tongue moves to the back of the mouth, as in gargling. But for "ch," I think the tongue is forward in the mouth and the gargle theory doesn't apply. For "ch," followed by "a," "o" or "u," I think most of us have heard the proper German pronunciation of "Bach" to be able to imitate the "ch" sound. An alternate suggestion for "ch" that is followed by "a," "o," or "u" is the proper pronunciaton of Chanukah, which has the same Bach-like sound.

I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on linguistics, but I thought I would offer my approach to how to make the correct sounds that seem to work for beginners like me.

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 413
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 02:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But for "ch," I think the tongue is forward in the mouth and the gargle theory doesn't apply.

I just tried it -- my tongue's bunched up near the back of my mouth near the throat when I make a broad "ch".

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Craosfholcoir (aka Fear an Iliomad Leasainm) (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From:
Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I just tried it -- my tongue's bunched up near the back of my mouth near the throat when I make a broad "ch".



Yes, the back of the tongue is still bunched up near the back, but the tip of the tongue moves forward when saying a broad "ch," so that it's not like you're gargling. If you start with a broad "gh" sound and then switch to a broad "ch" sound, I think you'll see the point, correct or incorrect, that I'm trying to make.

Ceist: Is Craosfholcoir the correct spelling for "gargler?"

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 416
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 07, 2006 - 04:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, the back of the tongue is still bunched up near the back, but the tip of the tongue moves forward when saying a broad "ch," so that it's not like you're gargling. If you start with a broad "gh" sound and then switch to a broad "ch" sound, I think you'll see the point, correct or incorrect, that I'm trying to make.

Perhaps it's just me, but the tip of my tongue is in roughly the same place when I address Cormac (a Chormaic) and Domhnall (a Dhomhnaill), or so it seems -- sort of hovering mid-mouth while the back of the tongue is bunched up near my throat. It doesn't shift elsewhere until I start making other consonant sounds later in the word.

I'd be interested to hear other people's results.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh
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Username: Domhnall_Ó_h_aireachtaigh

Post Number: 46
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 12:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Based on everything I've heard, I pronounce "gh" and "dh" no differently than a French "r" and it sounds like I'm replicating the native speakers with pretty good fidelity.

???

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 417
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 07:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Based on everything I've heard, I pronounce "gh" and "dh" no differently than a French "r" and it sounds like I'm replicating the native speakers with pretty good fidelity.

When I make a French "r", the tip of my tongue is much further forward than for the broad "dh" & "gh" of Irish.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 418
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 07:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think that the gargle theory applies for "gh" and "dh" that are followed by "a" "o" or "u" because the tongue moves to the back of the mouth, as in gargling. But for "ch," I think the tongue is forward in the mouth and the gargle theory doesn't apply.

As I mentioned above, when I make a broad "ch", "dh" and "gh", my tongue seems to be in roughly the same position for each. What appears to be the difference is that my "dh" and "gh" have a bit of a gargle to them, whereas "ch" is more like a throat-clearing.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1452
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 08:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The French r's are made in the throat (French is my mothertongue), while Irish broad gh and dh are pronounced where you pronounce Irish g and c: a bit further forward, as Cionaodh said.

However, it is possible that there are several ways to pronounce gh/dh according to the Irish dialect. In Donegal, dh/gh are velar, ie. pronounced as I said, in the place of g and c. A friend of mine told me that they were pronounced a bit in a different way in Connemara.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3861
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 06:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post




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