anyone know by which names the island of ireland was known before the coming of the milesians? Hibernia, Scotia, Eiru, Erin etc all seem to come after...

Inis Fáil, perhaps?

(Message edited by antaine on September 27, 2006)

To my knowledge, it was called what the naitives called it. Didn't really have a set name.

I did a report on it, and like Odwyer said, they didn't have any set name.

your 'homepage' is odd; had pop-ups on it; looks like a portal

Iomas: You should read "The Isles"

The Bronze Age: Ré an ghriandaite?

An-mhaith, a Fhirn.

Ré an bhréag griandath atá i réim faoi láthair, mar sin.

Ré buidéal na gréine, is dócha

An Ré Piz Buineach - Téarma nua idirnáisiúntach!

"An Ré Piz Buineach": Ré nach bhfuil miotal ann!

Ireland was only really tribes, they didn't look at the island as a country.. Ach seans go raibh ainm curtha ar an oileán ach níl 's cad é.

Right, but I didn't know if the island itself (home to many "countries") had a name, much like britain is scotland, wales and england (was cornwall ever independent...i know it used to be called 'west wales'...) or hispaniola contains both haiti and the dominican republic.

It's part of an epic poem I'm writing, and I'm mentioning Heber, Ir and Heremon sailing to _________. I'ved decided to simply use Innisfail as it's the only name I've been able to find that does not owe it's use to the milesian invasion that, in the story, has yet to happen (ireland, hibernia, scotia, eiru, erin, etc)

I'd question that Antaine.

Inis Fáil is clearly a gaelic, i.e. Milesian name!

Éire, Banba and Fodhla ar supposed to have been pre Milesian names, but....

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100054/text010.html

quote:

An ceud ainm tugadh ar Éirinn, Inis na bh-Fiodhbhadh, eadhon, oiléan na gcoillteadh; agus is é duine do ghair an t-ainm sin di, óglaoch do mhuinntir Nín mic Béil, táinig uaidh do bhraith na h-Éireann, agus iar dteacht innte dhó, fuair 'na haon doire coille í, acht Magh n-Ealta amháin. Trí huaire, iomorro, do bhí Éire 'na haon-choill, do réir an tsean-fhocail seo atá 'san seanchus: ‘Trí huaire do chuir Éire trí monga agus trí maola dhi.’

An dara hainm, Críoch na bhfuineadhach, ó bheith i bhfuineadh, nó i gcrích na dtrí rann do'n domhan do bhí ar faghbháil an tan soin; ionann, iomorro, ‘fuin’ agus críoch, ó'n bhfocal so Laidne ‘finis.’

An treas ainm, Inis Ealga, eadhon, oiléan uasal; óir is ionann inis agus oiléan, agus is ionann ealga agus uasal: agus is re linn Fear m-Bolg fá gnáth an t-ainm sin uirre.

The Gaels were rather triumphant in the middle of the first millenium, having become pre-eminent in Ireland, so I would take with a pince of salt anything they wrote as 'conquorers' about the prior or still existing-but-lessened cultures still in Ireland during the period those myths began to formulate

Aonghus, oh, it is most definitely a gaelic name. And since the speaker is at that moment standing on the deck of a ship next to Heber Fionn, calling it what Heber might have is okay. (and yes, of course he would have done it in a language we would not recognize, instead of the neatly modern "inis fáil")

My issue was that Heber wouldn't have called it Hibernia after himself, or Irland after his brother Ir or Scotia after their mutual ancient ancestor Scota (Or Heber Scut, I've seen it attributed to both)...future generations would apply those names.

Interesting though that Éire/Eiru possibly predates them. I had always thought that name came in the wake of the milesians, but I suppose not.

thanks, all, for your input

That's why I gave you the link to Foras Feasa, and quoted the first three names Keating assigns to Ireland.

But of course he is working from Gaelic sources, because there are no prior written sources.


Ptolemy called it Ibernia:

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/ptolemy_ireland.jpg

Yeah, but Ptolemy was about AD100...multiple centuries after the time in question. I'd read that one of the common Roman-era names was Hibernia (in this case, Ibernia) from Heber/Eber Fionn (not directly, but from tribes that identified themselves with descent from him - labeled on the map as "Iberni"). The same thing with Ir (or the Ivernii/Ierni/Aerni) and the Erainn in the south (a good area for trade routes to Roman-controlled areas) giving rise to "Erin"

I suppose the period I was asking about qualifies as "prehistoric" for that region...must be they call it "pre-history" for a reason, lol.

I did find an interesting source claiming that there was never a change in population or "milesian" invasion at all. That the people that lived there before the supposed invasion are the same people living there today (with the addition of anglo-norman and viking stock). That the whole tale was simply an allegorical invention of later Christian historians.

Indeed, some recent DNA tests indicated that the populations of Connacht and Munster (I don't know about the rest) as well as the Basques have some genetic markers indicating they were part of the first wave of migration into Europe after the ice age. That would mean that the Gaels did not replace any other "indigenous peoples" alluded to by legends of the Tuatha de Danaan, Firbolgs and Fomorians, but were themselves all of those peoples all along.

someone had posted the DNA article here approximately two years ago but I haven't been able to find it. Anyone remember the link?

Another post talking about myth suggested that the original Gaelic tales were very much of the Aryan/IndoEuropean flavour (blond warriors etc) that was more of an elite theme, rather than phenotypic reality

hm...I don't recall this being that post, as i don't remember it having that bent to it. I don't know...'sbeen awhile since I've seen it...

Bhí mé ag taistil ar feadh trí seachtain, mar sin níl mé ach ag bualadh isteach arís ar an mbord.

Is cuimhin liom go raibh trácht le déanaí - ar an mbord seo, creidim - faoi teaga a bhíodh á labhairt in áiteacha i gCúige Mumhan go dtí an naoú céad, a tugadh Ivernian/Ivernic uirthi. Mura bhfuil dul amú orm, duradh gur teanga í a bhí i réim roimh an teanga cheilteach.

B'fhéidir gur fiú féachaint go géar ar an bpréamh "Iver/Iber". B'fhéidir go mbeadh eochair no fionscail le fáil uaidh faoi úr-stair na tíre. Sílim go mbeadh baint aige le hainmeacha mar Iber/Eber, Ivernia, Hibernia. Agus b'fhéidir gur caolú de Iber/Eber an préamh "Ir"....

Ní saineolaí mise, ach má tá a leithéid ar an mbord, seo ábhar smaoinimh dó/di.