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Diarmo
Member Username: Diarmo
Post Number: 201 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 05:17 am: |
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I've been trying to learn some Manx recently via the language forum on Unilang..do any of you guys recognise in Irish or Scots Gaelic similarities to the words below??? for example Yinnagh oo in Manx could be dhéanach thú in a proto-Gaelic??? This lesson will be on the conditional tense. The conditional is formed in two ways in Manx, "would be (adjective)" and "would be (verb)ing". Veign = I would be (adjective) Nagh beign = I wouldn't be (adjective) Veagh oo = You would be (adjective) Nagh beagh oo = You wouldn't be (adjective) Yinnin = I would (verb) Yinnagh oo = You would (verb) Nagh jinnin = I wouldn't (verb) Nagh jinnagh oo = You wouldn't (verb) Note that all forms other than "mee" follow the "oo" structure. For example: Veagh shin mayrney = We would be happy Yinnagh shin goll = We would go |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3764 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 06:31 am: |
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Veign = bheinn Yinnin = dhéanfhainn Yinnagh shin goll = Dhéanadh sinn dul agus mar sin de. More Welsh, Norse and English influence on the orthography; ach gaeilge atá ann. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1432 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 06:32 am: |
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Yinnagh oo = *dhéanadh thú . It's not a proto-Gaelic but a new form that has emerged from Middle Irish, and is present in Scottish and Manx, but normally not in Irish (maybe few dialects have it). Veign = bheinn Nagh beign = nach (m)beinn Veagh oo = *bheadh thú (bheifeá in Irish) Yinnin = dhéan(f)ainn Yinnagh shin goll = *Dhéanadh sinn gabháil/dul. In Manx they often use the verb "jean" (to do) as an auxiliary verb for tenses like past or future. In some Irish dialects (Connemara), they can do the same in some cases: dhéanfaidh mé a cheartú instead of ceartóidh mé é. Note that "nagh" (=Irish nach) isn't followed by the eclipsis in Manx (nor in Scottish Gaelic) while it is in Irish: Irish "nach mbeinn" // Manx "nagh beign", Scottish "nach bithinn". Tír Chonaill abú!
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Diarmo
Member Username: Diarmo
Post Number: 202 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 06:43 am: |
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Mersi dit Lughaidh! GRMA Aongus An bhfuil sibh ag stáidear Gaelg freisin? I thought beign might be a typo and it should be being?? cad a cheapann sibh?? (Message edited by diarmo on September 21, 2006) (Message edited by diarmo on September 21, 2006) (Message edited by diarmo on September 21, 2006) |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3768 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 08:38 am: |
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Léigh amach ós árd duit féin é. Gaeilge atá ann; níl ann ach go bhfuil an scríobh eagsumhal. Fch mar shampla seo: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaelg/lettraghey.html |
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Diarmo
Member Username: Diarmo
Post Number: 203 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 08:48 am: |
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ar feabhas go raibh maith agat! I suppose by referring to it as Manx many wouldnt realise it's close relationship to Irish! |
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Bearnaigh (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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What service to re-intoduction is given by such a preposterous (and that is the only suitable word) spelling system? It's like some sort of code! |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 3770 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Only to those expecting Irish orthography. |
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Bearnaigh (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
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No, that's not what I meant. If they want to increase the number of speakers thru reintroduction then orthographic oddities could be removed. The orthography is not the language itself, so it has retained a v/p distinction in phones, then the irish system is a possibility, or maybe increase the number of letters used. If it has only plain consonants, just spell it appropriatly. I still feel the system employed is baroque, to say the least |
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Llorcan
Member Username: Llorcan
Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 12:08 pm: |
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I have to weigh in on this one. When a language has to be compromised by using the orthography of another language (English, in this case) it has already sold its soul. Late Cornish did the same thing - that's the reason for the current infighting over a new spelling system. Since Manx has so few learners anyway why not bring it in line with the other Gaelics? Even Mark Kermode hinted at the possibility of a Gaelic-based orthography. The linguist Heinrich Wagner didn't even use Manx spelling in his Linguistic Atlas and Survey of Irish Dialects which included Scots Gaelic and Manx but used IPA texts. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1434 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 02:04 pm: |
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I wouldn't say that Manx is Irish. The grammar has some very different stuff, the pronunciation has been simplified and sometimes changed a lot, and there are many words that can't be understood even if you know Irish and Scottish Gaelic. It'd be nice to use a more Gaelic-like spelling, but maybe the language would lose a part of its strangeness and appeal :-) . If you want to see the peculiarities of Manx, have a look at the chapter about Manx in 'Stair na Gaeilge', if you can buy or borrow this book. You learn a lot with it. (Message edited by Lughaidh on September 22, 2006) Tír Chonaill abú!
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Llorcan
Member Username: Llorcan
Post Number: 5 Registered: 06-2006
| Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 03:52 pm: |
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It certainly has strangeness and perhaps it would have wider appeal if it used a Gaelic spelling. I quote: "An entire book could be written on Manx orthography, but it would appear never to have been particularly popular with those who used it. The Vicars General who assisted Phillips apparently dismissed it as unintelligable (and they were native speakers) but had to perservere with the wishes of their Bishop nonetheless. The orthography established in this initial exercise has remained virtually unchanged over the subsequent history of the language. The advent of computer technology has now presented us with an opportunity to revise the orthography if we so desire, but I am sure that you will appreciate that it is, nonetheless, an awesome task and may not be seen for some time yet! As fy-yerrey, t'eh orrym gra "Nollick Ghennal erriu" (As fa-dhiara ta é orm gré "Nolaic Gheanal eriú") Mark Kermode / Mark Mac Dhiarmaid Mannin" |
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