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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (September-October) » Archive through September 11, 2006 » Is "Mac Léinn" a Gender-Biased Term?" « Previous Next »

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Foghlaimeoir na Gaeilge (formerly Mac Léinn na Gaeigle) (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 09:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For some time now, I had been using the pen name "Mac Léinn na Gaeilge." I adopted this name after being addressed by one the members as the Irish version of "Student of Irish," which I had been using previously. Recently, it has been pointed out that "Dalta" would be a more preferable term. I have my misgivings of using "Dalta" as a pen name, since it might appear as encroaching on this forum's name (Daltaí) and some may get the impression that I'm presenting myself as the original "Dalta."

In "Foclóir Scoile" under the English section, "Mac Léinn" is the first entry for student, and nowhere is it indicated that it only means "male student." Simarly in both the Irish sections of "Foclóir Scoile" and "Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla, "Mac Léinn" is translated as "student" with no reference to gender.

Since my Irish-language resources are very limited, the only other reference that I have to "Mac Léinn" being used in a gender-free manner is from Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish." In Chapter 18, there's a text titled "Mac Léinn." It's a story about Bríd who is a university student. So, since Bríd is referred to as a "Mac Léinn," I'm getting the impression that the term is not gender-biased." Furthermore, the story ends with "Nach iontach an saol a bhíonns ag mic léinn!" ("Isn't it a wonderful life that students have!)

So, I'd like to get input from this forum's members as to whether "Mac Léinn" is a gender-biased term. Any input would be greatly appreciated. In the meantime, I'll be using the pen-name "Foghlaimeoir na Gaeigle/whatever" before I can be certain that I haven't committed a gender-biased faux pas.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 361
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 10:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mac léinn is a slightly old-fashioned term, but I don't know of anyone who takes offense at its use.

Another you might consider is scoláire, which isn't just about being a learned person but is also used for youngsters in school.

(Message edited by cionaodh on September 02, 2006)

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 844
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 12:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"mac tíre" refers to both male and female wolves, no?

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Mbm
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Username: Mbm

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 05:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To give you some real-world evidence, I work in Fiontar (http://www.dcu.ie/fiontar) and "mac léinn" is the only term used around here to refer to our students, regardless of gender. From what I've seen and heard, this is common practice in other universities as well. The ladies don't seem to mind.

Yes, it is unfortunate that Irish doesn't have a gender-neutral term for "student", but that's how it is.

One gender-specific term, banaltra (nurse) has been "neutralized" recently to altra and it seems that this version has entered common usage now. It's interesting that nobody's coined a neutral version of mac léinn yet. Duine léinn, anyone? ;-)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1411
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 06:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have learnt the word "mac léinn" at Coleraine University, and our teacher told us that nobody would use "iníon léinn", regardless of gender. Maybe the word exists and would be understood, but he told nobody used it.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Mbm
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Username: Mbm

Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That sounds about right. I've never come across "iníon léinn" being used, except jokingly.

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3672
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 01:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I can only think of a gender neutral plural - aos léinn.

But I've never seen it used.

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If Irish speaking girl students don't mind being called mic léinn, then the lack of a gender neutral term doesn't seem to be a problem at all.
The word mac doesn't seem to me to have an exclusively masculine meaning here. This is a set phrase, and is regarded as a sort of a 'word' with a special meaning ie. student, and the fact that 'mac' means 'son' is not so important here (as it probably was in the past, when the set phrase was coined). That's my impression but it would be interesting to hear what native speakers think about it.

As for me, it's similar to the problem of certain English words that some people consider offensive. Some have suggested that even the word 'woman' should be somehow altered bacause it ends in 'man' (but Old English: wíf-man, ie. a female human!!). Of course in many cases the invention of a new word is necessary. But in the case of mac léin, I'm not quite sure.

Daithí

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 234
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 03:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá mé ag fágáil slán libh inniu ar feadh tamaillín so I should lend a female voice to the responses.

I prefer 'dalta' to 'Mac léinn' because I'm not a mac. I prefer 'principal' to 'headmaster' because it recognizes that the female role in the profession as opposed to the bad old days way back when certain jobs were considered appropriate for women (bheith sa chistin) and professional jobs were the domain of men. I don't like echoes of that continuing into the future. It can be damaging. I hate (Yes, I know it's a strong word) the term "headmistress". Mistress has other connotations.

As I have a brother-in-law who is a nurse I'm really glad to see he doesn't have to be a 'Ban'altra any more. Yahoo! Go raibh maith agat to the forward-thinking person who changed that one. I long to see all 'Men at work' signs gone from the sides of the road in Ireland and replaced by 'Work in progress.'

But, a Fhoghlaimeoir na Gaeilge, a chara. I think well of you and my comment on this was not meant to criticize but to simply point you my personal preference for 'Dalta' and the pun was begging to be used.☺
Cairde?

Caitríona

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Cúcú, Foghlaimeoir na Gaeilge (formerly Páiste na Gaeilge) (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 04:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde, go raibh maith agaibh as an eolas. Some years ago I read an very interesting article in Homiletic and Pastoral Review, written by an expert in linguistics. The author made quite a convincing argument that the suffix "man" stands for "person" and not for the "male" of the human species. The author extensively researched the subject of suffices in other languages used to denote "person." I forget which languages they are but some languages have separate suffices for "person" while others, like English use the suffix "man" for person.

Of course, everything has been turned around with society's understanding of the suffix "man"; we know have chairperson, salesperson, etc. And perhaps for good reason so as to combat the sexism that still occurs in today's workforce and society.

A Chaitríona, a chara, your pun was awesome, especially since it went right over my head.

What I've learned from this whole discussion is that the Irish language usually employs a gender-neutral suffix, i.e., "[t]eoir." That's why I plan on using "foghlaimeoir." but I think I'll use it as an epithet, since I do like the name "Cúcú as a pen-name.

On a separate note, when reading Homer's Odyssey, I was awestruck by the use of descriptions always appearing after certain names. My professor sister explained to me that the Greeks always included an epithet when describing their gods. For example, "Mercury, the winged-footed messenger." I'd like to ask another question - has Irish literature, especially mythology, ever employed epithets such as found in Greek mythology?

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Cúcúc, Foghlaimeoir an Ainmeacha (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I should've type Cúcúc for my pen name above.



FRC

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 845
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 07:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, but "principal" was originally part of "principal teacher"...how many principals still teach classes?

Besides, the principal who doesn't like the term "headmaster" may have earned her "Masters' Degree" along the way.

English is full of gender-bias, and isn't alone. Gender-bias only matters when we let it.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3673
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 04:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lúgh Lámhfhada, an Ildánach is one which spring immediately to mind. I'm sure their were others. Oral literature uses tricks like that a lot, it helps remember things and keep the flow.

Dennis?




Maidir le fear, bean agus rl. - tá "duine" ag an nGaeilge ag freagairt do "homo" na laidine.
(vir, mulier, homo, más buan mo chuimhne)

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 514
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 10:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So let me get this straightened out in my mind. So student of/Mac Leinn/beowolf/cuchulan is now Cucuc, OK then, just so I have it right.

Gender biased terms don't bother me all that much, I suppose in certain situations they might but I havn't encountered a situation yet in which I felt the need to make it known that I disapproved. And it sounds like Mac Leinn, like Mac tir is not gender bias, despite the "mac" at the start.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 541
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think you may be looking too far into this..

I mean cailín is a masculine word and i'm sure the lads weren't suggesting back in the day that irish women are butch..

The S.U. in DCU and all around the place use Aontas na MacLéinn..

And as for the girls of Fiontar.. Well it was one of them who informed me that i shouldn't call myself Dalta, but Mac Léinn as Dalta is used to describe secondary school students..

But a safe bet would be scoláire..
Is aoibhinn beatha an scoláire ;)

A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river

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Cúcúc, Foghlaimeoir na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 10:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But a safe bet would be scoláire..



I'm going to refrain from using scoláire since some may get the impression that I think I'm a scholar of some sort - that would be almost as bad as giving the impression of being a male chauvinist.

Although I'm mostly of Irish descent, my last name isn't of Irish origin, so I did like having "Mac Léinn" as a pen name - sounds a lot like MacLane. But I'm very happy with "Cúcúc, Foghlaimeoir na Gaeilge" for the moment.

Thanks for all the input.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 849
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 10:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riona, my comments, while using your example, were not directed at you. It was more a general observation. Some people get tremendously obsessive about language "correctness" like that, but they often don't bother to really delve into the deeper meanings of other words they find ok.

Remember the whole controversy of DC mayoral staff members and several teachers being fired for using the word "niggardly," which has nothing to do with anything racial whatsoever.

Many people are so concerned with sounding "correct" that any semblance of actual "correctness" goes out the window.

It was just a general rant...I was not lumping you in there.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 519
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 09:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Antaine a chara,

Ta mearbhall orm, I'm confused. You never said anything to me here warranting clarification, in fact I only posted once on this thread before now and it was after your post. Ni thuigim. But I do agree that people go overboard with correctness. I think that indeed there is a place for it, but in my opinion this isn't such a place in terms of a pen name potentially being gender bias.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 851
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 10:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Okay, I just wanted to be sure. With everybody cross-talking each other and a lack of body language/tone of voice it's easy to hurt feelings or cause offense online. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't.



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