mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Learning Irish, chp 18 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 66
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhaoine Uaisle,

I would appreciate it if you could help with the translation of the following sentence:

“I am not sure if they are from France or Spain.”

Learning Irish Translation: “Níl mé cinnte ar as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.”

My translations:

“Níl mé cinnte má tá siad ar as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn.” Or

“Níl mé cinnte madir tá siad ar as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn.”



Where is the verb in “as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad”?

Why does Learning Irish use “iad”- that’s an object pronoun right?

How does the Learning Irish example convey “if?” It doesn’t use má, mara, dá, or más…etc.

Would you always follow “Níl mé cinnte…” with “ar?”

What is wrong with my translations?


Thanks in advance!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 45
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think what's mixing you up may be that you're reading "ar" as a preposition. In this sentence, it's actually a form of the copula.

So that's one of your questions answered: the pronoun is "iad" because the copula always takes object pronouns. (e.g. Is fear é, not Is fear sé.)

Now, as to the "if" question...

The "if" that má, dá, etc. translate is a conditional: if he comes, if she hadn't been ill, if it doesn't rain. It's the sort of "if" that could be followed up with a "then."

The "if" in this sentence is a different animal. You can substitute "whether" for this one: "I don't know whether they are from France or Spain." To express this sort of "if" in Irish, you phrase the clause as a question:

[Ar/An] iascaire é?
Is he a fisherman?

(There's a little bit of dialect variation at work here. Ó Siadháil is going to use "ar" for asking questions; some other dialects would use "an.")

Níl mé cinnte [ar/an] iascaire é.
"I am not certain is he a fisherman."
I am not certain if he is a fisherman.


So in your example,
Níl mé cinnte [ar/an] as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.
"I am not certain are they from France or Spain."
I am not certain if they are from France or Spain.

I hope this clarifies more than it confuses! There's a lot of grammar going on here for such a simple little sentence...

Abigail

(Message edited by abigail on August 28, 2006)

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Odwyer
Member
Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 203
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"So that's one of your questions answered: the pronoun is "iad" because the copula always takes object pronouns. (e.g. Is fear é, not Is fear sé.)"

Could you please clarify?

P.S. How do you make a quote box?

Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 198.175.154.212
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

P.S. How do you make a quote box?



You make a quote box by using the following:

1. \quote

2. followed immediately by a left squiggly bracket, {

3. Then your quote

4. followed by a right squiggly bracket, }

I've listed them in the following steps, otherwise all you would see is the quote box and not the steps to accomplish such.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aaron
Member
Username: Aaron

Post Number: 85
Registered: 04-2005


Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Odwyer, to get a quote box, use the following format:

\quote{P.S. How do you make a quote box?}

Which will give:

quote:

P.S. How do you make a quote box?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 67
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, that "ar" once was in an earlier chapter. You were very perceptive to realize what I was confusing! That was bothering me ("to be sure on something?").

Go raibh maith agat, Abigail!

(Message edited by Jimnuaeabhrac on August 28, 2006)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Odwyer
Member
Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 205
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Go raibh maith agat!!!


Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member
Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 200
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 03:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Odwyer a chara,
Re. "So that's one of your questions answered: the pronoun is "iad" because the copula always takes object pronouns. (e.g. Is fear é, not Is fear sé.)"
Could you please clarify?

I'm not sure which part you want clarified here.
I'll go with 'Why is it iad and not é?' as a guess.

'Iad' is the plural.
Is fear é. He is a man.
Is bean í. She is a woman.
Is daoine iad. They are people.
é = he or it
í = she or it
iad = they or them
Ní maith liom iad. I don't like them.

I hope I guessed right,

Caitríona

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 46
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 04:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"So that's one of your questions answered: the pronoun is "iad" because the copula always takes object pronouns. (e.g. Is fear é, not Is fear sé.)"

Could you please clarify?



OK, so in Irish we have two sets of pronouns:
Nominative: mé, tú, sé, sí, sinn/muid, sibh, siad
Accusative: mé, thú, é, í, sinn/muid, sibh, iad

With "normal" verbs (i.e. anything but the copula!) the subject is a nominative pronoun and the object is an accusative pronoun:
"Chonaic í" = He saw her
"Rachaidh go dtí an Fhrainc" = She will go to France

With the copula, however, only the accusative pronouns are used:*
"Is bean í" (not ) = She is a woman
"Is as an bhFrainc iad" (not siad) = They are from France

The reason we can get by with this without confusing ourselves to Kingdom Come, of course, is that copular sentences typically don't have pronouns as both subject and predicate. ("She is him," anyone?)

* I'm oversimplifying just a little here... there's actually a fair bit of variation in the use of /thú with the copula. The way I learned was to use when it appears next to the copula, thú otherwise. So, for instance, I'd write "Is mo ghrá" but "Is buachaill breá dathúil thú." Other dialects do things differently...

Abigail

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Abigail
Member
Username: Abigail

Post Number: 47
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 04:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oops! Gabh mo leithscéal, a Chaitríona... ní fhaca mé do cheannsa.

Abigail

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Odwyer
Member
Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 207
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 05:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat Abigail agus Caitríona. You have clarified it wonderfully for me!

Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 252
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 06:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl mé cinnte ab hiad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad?
I'm not sure, are they from France or Spain?

Níl mé cinnte más iad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.
I'm not sure if they are from France or Spain.

LI: Ch. 11. 1.(v).

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member
Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 203
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Abigail, a chara,
Re. 'Oops'. Níl gá leis. Thaitin do mhíniú liom arís agus fiú má deirimid an rud céanna ó am go ham (rud nár tharla anseo), cén dochar,

Caitríona

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1402
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl mé cinnte ab hiad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad?
I'm not sure, are they from France or Spain?

Níl mé cinnte más iad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.
I'm not sure if they are from France or Spain.

LI: Ch. 11. 1.(v).


An bhfuil na habairtí sin i ’Learning Irish’ ? Tá cuma aistíoch orthu...

Tír Chonaill abú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 254
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 03:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl siad samplaí go díreach de 'Learning Irish'. Léigh mé an 11ú caibidil agus thug mé an shampla de Jimnuaeabhrac leis chun sampla a dhéanamh de mo thuiscint féin.

Agus ag amharc orthu arís ba cheart leis mo cheannú dhá 'sentences' abheith 'seperate'. Silim....? "Níl mé cinnte. Ab hiad...?

Agus m'úsaid "as" i náit 'de nó ó' leis mo dhara sin. Hmmmm.

Tá tuirse mhór orm. Caithfidh a bheith ag obair ag 10 agus tá sé 3:35 i maidin anseo anois. Tiocfidh mé ar éis amarach.

Slán.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 68
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, Maidhc_Ó_g , I'll look at Chp 11 when I get home.

It is funny but from my review last night it doesn't seem like LI has ever used "ar" in this context before. Which just goes to confirm what other posters have said about how one needs help getting through this book!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member
Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 212
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 01:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe it was a misprint and supposed to be 'an'. That happens too,

Caitríona

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 69
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I trust Abigail's explanation. Sometimes LI illustrates grammatical points in the answer key with very little explanation.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member
Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 215
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Me too. I'm not trying to take away from it in any way. I love the way she explains things. We're lucky to have her.

She wrote above [Ar/An] iascaire é?

It's just a possibility that it could have been a simple misprint too.
But whether or not there was a lot to learn here,

Caitríona

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 273
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 03:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ar iascaire thú? - Are you a fisher? (note: Cois Fhairrge Irish)

Ar = an. It has been discussed many times already.
quote:

Níl mé cinnte ab hiad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad?
I'm not sure, are they from France or Spain?

Níl mé cinnte más iad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.
I'm not sure if they are from France or Spain.



Tá siad sin mícheart.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 70.32.246.110
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 06:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah Peter, I missed that discussion. I tend to associate ar with the past. Gabh mo leithscéal.

I think I should log off now. I seem to be writing gabh mo leithscéals in different places. I'll call in an off day,
C

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1405
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 08:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Níl mé cinnte ab hiad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad?
I'm not sure, are they from France or Spain?
Níl mé cinnte más iad as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.
I'm not sure if they are from France or Spain.


Should be:
Níl mé cinnte an as an bhFrainc nó as an Spáinn iad.

In Donegal, i think people also say:
Níl mé cinnte ab eadh as a’ Fhrainc nó as a’ Spáinn iad.

Iad becomes hiad after ní, not after ab.

Tír Chonaill abú!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 255
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An = ar in the first and second person - mé, tú, muid, sibh.
Ab is used with the third person - é, í, iad.

(v) Table of forms of copula before third person pronouns

_________________________________________________________
- Ní - hé, hí, hiad -
_________________________ . _____ an dochtúr
- Is - é, í .
- Ab - . -
- Nach - .-
_________________________________ -.
Deir sé - gurb - iad . . . . . . -. .na dochtúirí
- nach
-
- Más - -
- Mara - -
_________________________________________________________

Ok. By this chart given by Ó Siadhail, it seems that my word order is valid. But you'll notice that all but 'gurb' and "nach" (the second one) are upper case indicating that they are used at the beginning of a sentence.
This leaves one in the dark about a compound "if/whether" sentence usage that we're looking for.

But digging around, I've found something else. 'Cé acu"... Might this be more correct?
Níl mé cinnte cé acu abhfuil siad as an bhFrainc nó as an Spáinn.

It's just bugging me now. Though I must also say that the only thing I can see wrong, when I split it into two sentences, is the use of hiad.
Níl mé cinnte. Ab iad as an bhFrainc iad nó an Spáinn?

Is é an chaoi go mba breá liom eolas ar bith anseo.
GRMMA

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 256
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Huuuunnnghhh!!!?????

"The words nach....__________

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 257
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

......._______

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 258
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

M aren't allowed on this discussion board."


What the !!!????

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 259
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 09:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Put the three of them together and that was the message I got when I tried to enter the chart. Any explanation on why we can't say that?? What'd I miss? Was it something hidden within a virus code some eons ago? It just seemed odd, that's all.

Le ard mheas.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 205
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Spam filter settings, Maidhc_Ó_g.

Give it a try now.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 70
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 07:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am finding this discussion vey helpful, but have the same grammatical questions as Maidhc_Ó_g. In addition, let me add this to the mix:

1. In chapter 11 LI says to use "ab" not "ar" (or "an") with 3 rd person pronouns. However the example from chapter 18 uses "ar."

quote:

Níl mé cinnte ar as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.




Maybe one could actually get away with either? Or maybe the object here is the idea of "whether they are from France or Spain" not themsleves. The idea would be a third person signgular.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 275
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 09:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ab iad as an bhFrainc iad nó an Spáinn?



Maidhc,

You just can't put it this way, as your first 'iad' is redundant. Jim's phrase

quote:

Níl mé cinnte ar as an bhFrainc nó Spáinn iad.



is the only one correct.

Jim,

The thing is that in yout phrase - which is again absolutely correct - there's no 3rd person pronoun coming directly after the copula. If there was one, you would use "ab". The rule looks like that:


If you have


copula (present tense, interrogative, positive) + é, í, iad (as well as 'eo, 'in, 'úd)


You get:

ab é
ab í
ab iad
etc.

In the phrase above the word directly following the copula is "as" (from) which is a preposition. So, according to the rule, you don't have to use "ab" here, but "ar" (or "an"). That's the thing.

Peter

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 260
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah, tá ceart leat a Pheter.

In Ch.18.4(iv) he gives, "Is as Gaillimh í."

A full seven chapters later. So, one can see where the confusion could come from here.

It seems, to me, that the third person is repeated except with prepositions and adjectives (See Ch.11.2.) with the copula.

I still don't get why you wouldn't still use 'ab' in the example we've been working with though. It's seems clearly given as the third person copula form.

Níl...ab as....Spáin iad.
......faoi ab as.....
......cé acu ab as.....

These all seem legitimate to me.

Ar mé, tú, muid, sibh.
Ab é, í, iad.
What am I missing?

PS. Grma a Chaoimhin for the explanation there.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 71
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Pheter, ! Tigim. I hope!

Maidhc_Ó_g,

From what Peter says, I think the key is that is whether or not the pronoun follows the copula directly. It might be beter to think about as a sound mutation rather than a rule of grammar.

Logically, an English speaker (like me)would always expect the same form of the copula with a particular pronoun no matter how far apart they were.
However, Peter (please excuse the presumption) seems to be saying that "ab" is only to be used when they folow each other directly. It kind of strikes me as a matter of pronuncation. Maybe when pronunciation gets written down it becomes grammar.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc_Ó_g
Member
Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 261
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 01:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As far as repetition of the pronoun goes, that's what I found. Following you explanation of pronunciation, to me, totally negates the need for 'ab' to be used at all since it would be only used for questions. And since you'd be using 'an/ar' for everything else, what'd be the point??
But there it is - in the third person with é, í, iad.

Peter may be correct. But everything Ó Siadhail gives flies to the contrary or is missing in regards to this context.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge