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Daniel_Ó_haireachtaigh
Member Username: Daniel_Ó_haireachtaigh
Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 02:31 pm: |
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I have another complete beginner's question I hope somebody will not mind answering. Thus far I've seen both "tá" and "atá" used for the present indicative form of "be." In one older grammar, only atà was used. Is there a technical difference between the two or is it merely a question of which word flows better within a sentence? Maddeningly I've seen both used withing the same sentence without a word of explanation as to why one was preferred in one instance while the other was better suited elsewhere. Thank you! |
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Marioberti
Member Username: Marioberti
Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 06:19 pm: |
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a (that, who, which) + tá (am, are, is) > atá tá an litir ar an mbord = the letter is on the table tá an litir a scríobh é ar an mbord = the letter (that/which) he wrote is on the table sin é an litir atá sé a scríobh = that's the letter (that) he's writing RELATIVE PRESENT FORM OF BÍ: atá mé / atáim atá tú/sé/sí atáimid / atámuid atá sibh/siad sin í an bhean atáim ag lorg = that is the woman I am looking for |
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Odwyer
Member Username: Odwyer
Post Number: 192 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 06:40 pm: |
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Why do you need an "a" before "scríobh"? Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 09:39 pm: |
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quote:Why do you need an "a" before "scríobh"? As Marioberti points out, the Irish partcle a is the equivalent of the English particle that. Both are used to introduce relative clauses. The sentence The letter that he wrote is on the table. is a complex sentence. It is the combination of two simple sentences. The letter is on the table. and He wrote the letter. In English you can combine these sentences into a complex sentence where the former is the primary clause (sentence) and the latter is the secondary clause (sentence). The link is the relative particle that. The letter that he wrote is on the table. The primary clause is in red and the secondary clause is in blue. The secondary clause is secondary because it modifies the subject of the primary clause. It tells you something about the letter. You can do the same kind of thing in Irish. The difference is that Irish has two types of subordinate clauses; one causes the verb to be lenited while the other causes it to be eclipsed. Since scríobh can be neither be lenited or eclipsed, we do not have to worry. So the Irish becomes Tá an litir a scríobh sé ar an mbord. You will note that Marioberti used the accusitve form of the pronous é when the pronoun is actually the subject of the subordinate clause. So I think it should be sé, the nominative form. |
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 262 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 09:42 pm: |
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Sorry, forgot to log on. I am the guy who made the above attempt to answer Odwyer's question. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Odwyer
Member Username: Odwyer
Post Number: 199 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:19 pm: |
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OK I understand. Thanks very much!!! Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1196 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:37 pm: |
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In the other sentence, "a" is the indirect speech form of "ag", e.g.: Táim ag scríobh litreach -- I'm writing a letter Sin an litir atá mé a scríobh -- That's the letter I'm writing. Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.
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(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:41 pm: |
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"Táim ag scríobh litreach -- I'm writing a letter" Kind of like ... "I'm a'writin' a letter" ... ? |
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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 03:01 pm: |
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Kinda of like, from the Twelve Days of Christmas, Geese A-laying Swans A-swimming Maids A-milking = the eight beatitudes Lords A-leaping |
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Odwyer
Member Username: Odwyer
Post Number: 206 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 03:04 pm: |
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Or "I'm at writing a letter?" But I like "I'm a-writin' a letter" more. (Message edited by odwyer on August 28, 2006) Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 201 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
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Before we go 'a wandering' too much off topic, cute and all as it is... let's revisit some examples: Tá an litir a scríobh sé ar an mbord. The letter that he wrote is on the table. In the examples that Lúcas wrote, a corresponds to the English ‘that’ in the sentence. So Fear na mbróg’s ‘Sin an litir atá mé a’ scríobh.’ could be translated as That's the letter that I am writing. The a before tá in atá here is ‘that’ and the second a is a shortened form of ag that is necessary for the ‘ing’ form as in ‘writing’ (ag scríobh). This brings us back to what Marioberti concise explanation of atá: a (that, who, which) + tá (am, are, is) = atá Maybe the confusion was with the example ‘Sin é an litir atá sé a scríobh’ That's the letter (that) he's writing. In this sentence the first a = that, while the second a = a short form of ag. It’s often written with an apostrophe to show that the g is left out. Ní neart go cur le chéile, Caitríona
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 04:02 pm: |
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This brings us back to what Marioberti concise ... should be This brings us back to what Marioberti gave as a concise.. Pardon my English briste. Gabh mo leithscéal, Caitríona
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Odwyer
Member Username: Odwyer
Post Number: 208 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 05:30 pm: |
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quote:‘Sin é an litir atá sé a scríobh’ What is the é for then? Assuming that the literal, word for word translation I have is correct: "That it the letter that is he writing" (Message edited by odwyer on August 28, 2006) Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!
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Maidhc_Ó_g
Member Username: Maidhc_Ó_g
Post Number: 253 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:11 pm: |
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The 'é' is needed there to my understanding because the third person pronoun must be repeated when used with the copula if it's the subject. In this case 'that' is the subject. 'Sin an litir í atá sé ag scríobh. That's the letter he's writing. PS. I think 'litir' describes a single letter character, and nóta is for a letter one sends to another person - mar sampla "nóta grá" - love letter. |
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 204 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 08:03 pm: |
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Here's my take on it: We're using the copula and Is é sin got simplified to Sin é. We talked about the copula once before in terms of defining something or the copula as an equals sign. Is dalta mé. Mé = dalta. We also said it answered the question, 'What is it?' In this case we're a little more specific and it answers What is that? We define what the thing/person is with the answer. In English you'd say: That is my book. That is my wife. Those are my children. In the English version you have 'that' and the verb 'to be'. In Irish you say: Sin é mo leabhar. Sin í mo bhean. Sin iad mo pháistí. Our Irish version gives us 'that' and the copula form of 'to be' because we're defining and the gender in the singular form. Now if you were answering What type of ...is it? you'd use 'Tá' to describe them. Tá mo leabhar buí. or Tá sé buí. Tá mo bhean álainn. or Tá sí álainn. Tá mo pháistí craiceálta. or Tá siad craiceálta. It's also possible to define them with the adjectives. But you're still answering the questions, What is that? or What are those? Sin é mo leabhar buí. Sin í mo bhean álainn. Sin iad mo pháistí craiceálta, Caitríona
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 205 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 08:07 pm: |
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In case we insult anyone I should say that it's probably better to ask Who is that? or Who are they? when referring to people unless your eyesight is gone and you can't make out whether it's a thing or a person ☺, Caitríona
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