Arising from a request for a translation of 'You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink' I started thinking of all the proverbs with creatures in them. Have I left any out? Do you have variations on these?

Créatúirí sna seanfhocail

Capaill
Is maith an capall a tharraingíos a charr féin.
It is a good horse that will pull its own cart
Is maith an capall nach bhfaigheann barrthuisle.
It is a good horse that doesn’t stumble.
An t-ualach 's mó ar an capall is míne.
The willing horse gets the most work.
‘Sé capall na hoibre an bia.
The horse of work is food.
Ba
Is le gach bó a lao agus is le gach leabhar a chóip.
To every cow its calf and to every book its copy.
Bíonn adharca fada ar na ba thar lear.
The far away cattle have long horns.
Muca
Is iad na muca ciúine a itheann an mhin.
It is the quiet pigs that eat the meal.
Bíonn cluasa fada ar mhuca beaga.
Little pigs have long ears.
Ag cuimilt saille buì le droim ne muice méithe.
Rubbing fat on the fat pig's back.
Caoirigh
Ná díol caora dhubh, ná ceannaigh caora dhubh, agus ná bí gan caora dhubh.
Neither buy nor sell a black sheep but never be without one.
Gabhair
Cuir síoda ar ghabhar ach is gabhar i gcónaí é.
Dress a goat in silk and he still remains a goat.
Is fearr marcaíocht ar ghabhar ná cosaíocht dá fheabhas.
It’s better to ride on a goat than even the best of walks.
Madraí
Is dána an madra ina tigh féin.
The dog is cheeky in its own house.
Is minic a rug cú mall ar ghiorria.
It is often that a slow hound captures a hare.
Beireann an cú mall ar a chuid féin. The slow hound catches its own.
Is géar súil an madra ocrach. The hungry dog has sharp eyes.
Cait
Scéal an chait, a piscín.
The cat's story: its kitten.
Céard a dhéanfadh mac an chait ach luch a mharú?
What would a cat’s offspring do except kill a mouse?
Siúlann na cait seacht n-acra in oíche.
A cat walks seven acres in a night.
Éanlaithe
Is fearr éan sa bhos ná péire sa tor.
A bird in the fist is better than a pair in the bush.
Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcaí féin.
The black raven thinks her own chicks are beautiful.
Ní thagann an dá thrá leis an ngobadán.
The sandpiper cannot have two beaches.
Is maith an cearc nach mbeireann amuigh.
The good hen doesn't lay outside.
Is trom cearc i bhfad.
Even a hen becomes a burden on a long journey.
Chuirfeadh sé cosa faoi chearca duit.
He'd build a nest in your ear.
Is leor don dreoilín a nead. A wren only has need for its nest.
Is garbh mí na gcuach.
The month of the cuckoo is severe.
Éisc
Ní breac go port é.
A trout isn't caught until it is landed.
Feithidí
Is minic a bhain seangán léim as gearrán.
It is often an ant made a horse jump.
An té a luíonn le madraí, éireoidh sé le dearnaid.
He who sleeps with dogs, rises with fleas.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.
It takes one to know one.

Nice Caitriona!

What about:

Briseann an dúchas tré shúilibh an chait

Mair a chapaill agus gheobhair féar

to add to your list.

As a variation, the form of "Bíonn adharca fada arna ba thar lear", I first knew it with an older dative form, and that's the one that would come to me first:

Bíonn adharca fada ar na buaibh thar lear".

It sounds better to my ear. But it is an archaism, I suppose. Actually, I note that the old dative is in the cat proverb above as well.

Béarfaidh bó éigen, lao éigin, lá éigen.
Some cow will give birth to some calf some day.

Is olc an t-éan a shalaíoa nead féin.
It's a bad bird that fouls its own nest.

Gach éan mar a oiltear
Every bird as it is brought up

Téann an bainne sa gheimhreadh go hadharca na mbó
In winter the milk goes to the cows' horns

Codladh an ghiorria
The sleep of a hare (With one eye open)

Chomh sleamhain le bolg eascainne
As slippery as an eel's belly

Chomh sámh le liopadaileap.
As tranquil as a basking shark.

Chomh casta le hadharc reithe
As crooked as a ram's horn.

Chomh hata le frog san fhóomhar.
As swollen as a frog in autumn

Chomh géar-radharcach le gainéad.
As sharp-sighted as a gannet.

Chomh díreach is atá an chnámh i ndroim na lachan.
As straight as the bone in the duck's back.

Chomh bocht le bairneach.
As poor as a limpet

Chomh bréan le pluais an mhadra rua.
As smelly as a fox's den.

Is mini cú mall sona.
A slow hound is often happy.

Tabhair póg do chos an ghiorria.
Kiss the leg of the hare
Say goodbye to something that's lost for ever.

Is minic a rinne bromach gioblach capall cumasach.
Many a ragged colt made a noble horse

Mair, a chapaill, agus gheobhaidh tú féar.
Live, horse, and you will get grass

Ná díol do chearc lá fliuch.
Don't sell your hen on a wet day.

Bhearrfadh sé luch ina codladh!
He'd shave a sleeping mouse!

All of the above proverbs are from from "Beginner's Irish" by Gabriel Rosenstock, Hippocrene Books, 2000, ISBN 0-7818-0784-0

FRC

Pangur dubh,

Looks like I accidently repeated one of yours above. Tá brón orm.

In regard to the proverb, "Mair a chapaill agus gheobhair féar" I can't help but think back to a previous thread where someone was asking for help with wedding notes where they wanted to say "Dance, Love, Live and Dream!" I had suggested that for "live," "mair" whould be appropriate, but I was corrected with the advice that it had to be "go maire tú."

Also, more recently someone asked for a tatoo translation of "Live, Laugh, Love" and they were advised that in Irish we don't say "live" but instead we would say "life."

So, now I'm really confused and would appreciate clarification. Is it that in the proverb above "mair" is allowed because of "proverbial" license or is it because you can say "mair"(live) to an non-human animal but not to another human, or is there some other reason why "mair" is employed in the proverb above but is not allowed in wedding notes or tatoos?

In response to Mac Léinn na Seanfhocal:

Politeness. "Mair" is certainly the imperative of the verb but would be thought abrupt or giorraisc. "Go maire tú" is more acceptable. Gentler. Grammatically there is nothing wrong with "mair" but it wouldn't be used in such a situation. Addressing a horse with "mair" is unlikely to hurt its feelings however ...

In any case that proverb is likely to be used in anger and exasperation: "Yeah! If I survive that long! Look! I need ..... NOW!" and politeness would not be necessary.

A Thaidhgín,

Go raibh maith agat as an eolas. I think I'll start a new thread on this subject so as not to interfere any further with Caitriona's purpose of this thread.

So what would be a sort of English to equivalent to "mair" agus "Go maire tú"? I'm a little confused as to the difference.

"Mair" = Live!
"Go maire tú" = May you live! Commonly used on seeing new clothes being worn or a new outfit / new car / new anything ...
"Go maire tú is go gcaithe." (I'm not sure what this tense is called "present subjunctive? an modh foshuiteach láithreach? May you live to wear (out) / spend; may you outlive ...)
"Go mairir is go gcaithir." (May you live and may you wear i.e. may you live to wear it. Older grammatical forms.)
"Go maire tú do nuaíocht." (May you (out)live your newness. May you live to enjoy your newness.)

Ah, thanks very much.

Cuirfidh mé bhúr seanfhocail leis an liosta. Go raibh maith agaibh. Smaoinigh mé ar cheann nó dhó eile freisin. Ceapaim go bhfuil dóthain agam anseo. Nach aisteach an rud é nach bhfuil mórán éisc ann agus Eireann ina oileán.

Go raibh maith agaibh, a Phanguir aus 'Mac Léinn na Seanfocal' le ainmneacha spéisiúla eile a athríonn go minic. Nach ionann dalta na Gaeilge agus mac léinn na Gaeilge (cé gur 'fear'r liom an leagan gan inscine)? An seasann tú, ar bhealach, don dalta 'universal' anseo?

Scríobh Caitíona,

quote:

Nach ionann dalta na Gaeilge agus mac léinn na Gaeilge (cé gur 'fear'r liom an leagan gan inscine)? An seasann tú, ar bhealach, don dalta 'universal' anseo?

Here's my attempt at translating the above:

ionann = same, identical, equal

inscine = gender

an leagan = the version

seasann = stand, stop, stay, withstand, endure

ar bhealach = in a way.

So, my translation is:

"Aren't pupil of Irish and student of Irish the same? (which I prefer the version without gender. Are you (stopping, standing, staying, withstand, enduring), in a way, the universal pupil here?"

Before I respond to your comment, I'd like confirmation or correction to my (mis)translation.

Cúpla rud beag:

cé gur = although + copula
seasann do = stands for, represents

There's also a pun in there: fear and fearr. (Probably you spotted that already, though... it wouldn't really come out in the English translation anyway.)


Abigail

A Abigail,

Go raibh maith agat as an eolas. I would have never gotten the pun, which I think is funny, so thanks for pointing it out. I had adopted the pen name "Mac Léinn na Gaeilge" from the salutation used by one of our most prestegious members who translated it from "Student of Irish." I had no idea it had "gender bias" since some of the more knowledgeable members have asked whether my name should be lenited when used in the vocative, indicating to me that my moniker was gender neutral.

When I first started taking classes with Daltaí and their fine teachers, I was given an Irish name, which although close but not exactly the same as my Christian name, I found rather odd and out of place, because I've always been proud of the name given to me by my parents. But then I says to myself "self, this whole name thing is really actually cool, since even as a child, I was always impressed with writers that have pen names, like Mark Twain, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Then I got to thinking how nice it would be to have as many pen names as my heart desired. So far, I've have at least a half a dozen pen names here on Daltaí and I think it's time to change to a new one again. So my new pen name, at least for the time being will be Beowulf, which I hope is not gender biased. If so, I'll gladly change to a new one, which I plan on doing on a moments notice anyway.

And why not? 'Twas the 'mac' I was referring to. I love Heaney's (Eireannach ag míniú litríocht Shasanach! Fair play dhó) leagan of Beowulf. Tá mé bródúil as mo mhúinteoir. ☺

Beowulf? B'fhéidir, Cú Chulainn would be better? :-) Or as he was affectionately known: Cúcúc.

I also love Heaney's rendition of "Beowulf." I also had the opportunity of studying under Heaney at an Irish summer school in Sligo back in the seventies. My sister and I went to summer school in Sligo and other parts of Ireland on vacation that summer, and being the engineer type, I decided to take a course for credit, while everyone else went for fun (i.e. non credit) and spent their days and nights partying while I was busy studying. At the time, I didn't realise how fortunate I was. My sister later did her master's degree back in the States with focus on Heaney's works.


William a chara,

Thanks for the suggestion. I normally would prefer to wait a few hours before changing my pen name, but I do like the name Cú Chulainn much better than Beowulf.

Go raibh míle maith agat!

Le meas,

Cú Chulainn (formerly known as Beowulf, formerly known as Mac Léinn na Gaeigle)

I suppose your name is your own business. I will miss the enjoyable unpredictability of "student of ..." and then "Mac Leinn na ...". Oh well then. As long as you tell us, as you just have, that you're changing it and what you're changing it to. I like knowing who the all of you are as much as I can in this not-quite-real setting in which we find ourselves here.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Cúcúc, you certainly were fortunate! Heaney's Beowulf is a masterful translation. My own email address is taken from the Poetic Edda since I was impressed with the peotic power of the text through one of Auden's translations. Heaney should try a version of the Poetic Edda. Kinsella beat him to theTáin.

I have also always been fascinated by the conjectured influence of the Irish saga tradtion on the Icelandic saga tradition. I was at a screening of one Hrafn Gunnlaugsson's acclaimed Viking films and he said that his grandmother always told him that the sagas were brought to Iceland by Irish women.

An oral account like that should not be lightly dismissed.

I can see what you are saying, Riona. Online communites are sometimes hard to jell as communties. I think it helps to have a photo, but some don't like that--and I am not even sure if I have one that would work in the site. I should practice what I preach!

(Message edited by William on September 01, 2006)

I very much like our little group here. I've never really felt unwelcome and I think that the all of you are kind and generous to give so much help. As to a photo, I don't really see the need for me to put one up, partly because I'd have to figure out how, Ta me tamailte ... (ta tamailte orm) ? ..., and partly because what I look like is of little consequence in our communications. I'm not opposed to you seeing what I look like by any means, I merely think it unimportant. But some people like to put pictures up and that is grand for them.

7 more days

William,

Very interesting points you make above. I'm currently in the middle of reading Bernard Cornwell's "The Last Kingdom" (ISBN 0-06-053051-0) Athough it takes place in England and is a fictional account based on the actual history of King Alfred's defense against the Vikings, throughout the book there are mythical characters and stories told by the vikings that are very similar, at least in nature, to what you would expect in an Irish/Celtic mythological story.

A Riona, a chara,

You're absolutely right about when you wrote above "I will miss the enjoyable unpredictability of "student of ..." and then 'Mac Leinn na ...'." I too would miss that, because "unpredictability" is my middle name. . But I think I've found a way out of this dilemna and at the same time avoiding any accusations or implications that my pen-name is gender biased.

So, my new pen-name will be "Foghlaimeoir na ....." I'll start a new thread to discuss whether or not their is any validity to "Mac Léinn" being gender biased.

cha ghabhann dorn druidte seabhac

sé an t-éun maidne a gheabhas a phéideog

an té is luaithe lamh, bíodh aige an gadhar bán 's a fiadh


i gcosaibh na con do bhíonn a cuid

ná fág an sionnach ag buachailleacht na ngeach

ní cóir gearran éasgaidh a ghréasughadh

is maith a t-each a shásuigheas gach marcach

ná dean cró a roimhe na h-arcaibh

ná beannuigh an t-íasg go d-tiocaidh se a d-tír

salachaidh aon chaora chlamhach sréud

chan fhuair an madadh ruadh teachdaire a riamh a b'fearr ná é féin

ná cuntais na sicinidh no go m-beidh siad leigthe

faghann na h-eich bás, fhad a's bhios a féur a' fás

tarruing do lamh comh reidh a's thig leat as béul a mhadaidh

ní hinniúchtar fiacla an eich do bronntar
.....


AR MHAITH LEAT TUILLEADH "créatúirí sna seanfhocail?"

FnaG, a very interesting monograph on the Gaelic influence on Icelandic culture is:

"Gaelic Influence in Iceland: Historical and Literary Contacts - A Survey of Research" by Gisli Sigurdsson.

It was the ground-breaker on the subject.

But this is a matter that has been on the minds of other Icelanders for many years. As I aluded to previously, Hrafn Gunnlaugsson's first Viking film, "Hrafninn flygur"(The Raven Flies), has its opening sequence set in Ireland--from which the Sagas are taken.

In 1981, Einar Pálsson published "Arfur Kelta" (Celtic Heritage). Unfortunately, this book has never been translated from Icelandic.

In his later years Halldór Laxness--Iceland's greatest writer--was very interested in Pálsson's book. But interest in matters Celtic was not new to him. When he became a Catholic he took his baptismal name as his new middle name--Kiljan, which is the Icelandic version of Killian, the Irish martyr and saint.

And at the very beginnings of Icelandic literature (and some would say still the summit) we have Njal's Saga. Njal is the Icelandic version of the Irish name Neil.

Déiridh, tá do liosta seanfhocal an-suimiúil. An as do chuimhne féin a scríobh tú iad nó an bhfuair tú i leabhar iad? Is é fáth mo cheiste ná an litriú agus an ghramadach a bheith beagán difriúil ó ghnáth-Ghaeilge na bhfoghlaimeoirí. Tá an-bhlas ar do chuidse.

Your seanfhocal "faghann na h-eich bás, fhad a's bhios a féur a' fás" makes a good response to "Mair, a chapaill, agus gheobhair féar."

I am interested in the origin of these proverbs. They are certainly from the living tradition but where did they originate? Tá blas orthu. (They are 'tasty' :-)

tá mearchuimhne agam!
tá roinnt leabhar agam: macadam (1850's) (cúige Uladh), bourke, morris, ó longáin, 's o'rahilly. cúpla eile, b'fhéidir.
ar mhaith leat tuilleadh "créatúirí sna seanfhocail?"

Níor mhiste liom -- murar miste leat! Tá siad an-tíriúil.

ní miste liom...cúpla eile

nuair bhi/onn do la/mh i mbe/al an mhadra, tarraing go re/ig i/

cuinnibh an cna/mh is leanfaidh an madra thu

aithnigh cu/ ge/ur a lo/cht

an te/ a bhualadh mo mhadadh, bhualadh se me/ fe/in

troid chaoracha maola

'n uair a bhios bolg a chait la/n, ghnidh se cro/nan

ta iasg 's a bh-fairge ni's fearr na/ gabhadh a ri/amh

is fearr marcaigheachd air ghabhar na/ coisigheacht o/ fheabhas

ma's gasta an gearr-fhiadh, beirthear fa dheireadh air

ni/ gheabhar an cu/ go n-imthigh an fiadh

ni/ i gcomhnuidhe mharbhann daidi/n fia


cúpla eile amárach nó arú amárach (ma/'s bre/ag uaim i/, is bre/ag chugam i/)

cha robh caora chlamhach air a t-sréud a ríamh, nar mhaith leithi comráda bheith aici

an té a luidheas leis na madraidh, éireochaidh se leis na dearnadaidh

is tuar fearthana alt áilleog

(nachar leór do dhuine dhona a dhichioll a dheanamh?)