Well folks, I'm back from my two week trip to Scotland! Went to all sorts of cool places, and stayed in a cottage in a professed Gaeltacht. I would have gone to Ireland but unfortunately I had no choice in the matter. It wasn't much of a Gaeltacht either. Whiloe the road signs had trandlations on them, which were pretty much the same as in Irish, eg. mor was mór, dearg was dearg, agus dubh was dubh, etc. Pretty much the only Gaelic I heard spoken was on the Gaelic radio station and when I went to a Gaelic University, which was as much a Gaelic University as the area was a Gaeltacht. I tried to talk to a Gaelic speaker (or "Gallic" as they say in Scotland) but the languages were not similar enough for us to understand eachother. I noticed a few differences from the little Gaelic I saw, however. I thought it might be interesting to compare the two languages. But I think most of the basic words are the same.

Things I saw were different:

In Scottish Gallic, I saw that at the beginning of words starting with "sc", the "c" was replaced by a "g" but the pronunciation remained as if there was a "c" there. For example, (one of 3 I saw): Well folks, I'm back from my two week trip to Scotland! Went to all sorts of cool places, and stayed in a cottage in a professed Gaeltacht. I would have gone to Ireland but unfortunately I had no choice in the matter. It wasn't much of a Gaeltacht either. Whiloe the road signs had trandlations on them, which were pretty much the same as in Irish, eg. mor was mór, dearg was dearg, agus dubh was dubh, etc. Pretty much the only Gaelic I heard spoken was on the Gaelic radio station and when I went to a Gaelic University, which was as much a Gaelic University as the area was a Gaeltacht. I tried to talk to a Gaelic speaker (or "Gallic" as they say in Scotland) but the languages were not similar enough for us to understand eachother. I noticed a few differences from the little Gaelic I saw, however. I thought it might be interesting to compare the two languages. But I think most of the basic words are the same.

An example of a difference:

In Scottish Gallic, I saw that at the beginning of words starting with "sc", the "c" was replaced by a "g" but the pronunciation remained as if there was a "c" there. For example, (one of 3 I saw) scian was changed to sgian. I saw the sg on a place name, but I forget what it was.

Any contibutions to my observations?

Sorry it looks like my post was doubled somehow.

When I was at school, 'scoil' was often written 'sgoil', and 'Agus' was (a long time ago - Dennis, help!) written 'ocus' - some kind of interchangeability here with 'c' and 'g'.

Gaidhlig, however, looks less weird to a Gaeilgeoir who has experience of the 'old' spelling (pre late 1940s) I would hazard.

Well, it may be a question of voicing/devoicing. The major difference is in the voice box comes one for a g and off for a k.

See 'Érinn co brath' ('Ireland until destruction', or similar), where it is now 'go'.

Odwyer a chara,

Ignore my post on that 10000 thread, I hadn't seen this yet.

Beir bua agus beannacht

One conribution so far, Fáilte ar ais!! I'm glad you had a good trip. You've got me interested in the similarities now. Go raibh maith agat.

Something else I noticed: Scottish Gaelic is not doing well at all. I stayed in a Gaeltacht and I didn't hear anyone speak Gaelic. Half the time people on BBC Gael spoke English. I looked into it and discovered that Gaelic had not been taught in schools in almost 25 years! Could this be the sad fate of Irish if it is made optional? After it is made optional, isn't it reasonable to expect that the next step is it being out of schools forever?

I share your fear that making Irish in optional might hasten its decline. I have recently revived my interest in the language, and have the benefit of having had Irish in school for 12 years (mind you its 35 years since I left).

But this view is reinforced by the fact that my youngest daughter who is 16 is considering taking Irish at University. She readily admits that if it had been optional in Secondary school, she would not have selected it in 1st Year and would therefore be unlikely to take it up at University level.

A Odwyer a chara,

I fear that you are more than correct. First it will be optional, then schools will start cutting it because the kids aren't signing up. Then only a few schools will have it and the government will say that there is no point in putting money into something that only a few people want and that will be the end of it. Then only the kids whose parents care enough to put them into Gaelscoilana will be exposed to Irish and the rest will be largely unexposed to it.

Gaelic is not doing well at all from all acounts I've heard. Its too bad that you couldn't go to the islands whare you might have had a chance to hear more.

If you attended a Gaelic university the only one I know of is "Sabhail Mór Ostaig" and I would say the usual Gaelic politeness rule applied: "speak English in the presence of strangers". I don't know about the Sleat Peninsula but Staffin and the north of Skye was 90% Gaelic speaking twenty years ago .... In South Uist they couldn't introduce the Gaelic programme into the school because the teacher was from London..... Twenty years ago. Thankfully -- or sadly! -- Irish is streets ahead both in State recognition and in widespread knowledge throughout the population. Ask the Poles and the Latvians have they heard Irish and they will say they have: "Conas tá tú" and "Go raibh maith agat". Ríona, you paint a dismal future for Irish but you are right if those supporting the language do not use it more.

Yes I went to Sabhail Mór Ostaig. I heard a bit of Gaelic there.

"Gaelic is not doing well at all from all acounts I've heard. Its too bad that you couldn't go to the islands whare you might have had a chance to hear more."

A Riona, a chara,

I did go to the islands. I went to Iona and Skye. In neither of them did I hear a single word of Gaeilge. But maybe I was in the wrong part of Skye. And Iona.

I would have hope for you to hear Gàidhlig, not Gaeilge. And are we speaking of Gàidhealtachd, or Gaeltacht? Not one and the same, right? I'd be interested to know how long you were in the Western Isles and exactly what you did there ... it really is a shame that you heard no Gaelic. I've read that some parishes on the islands were 70% Gaelic speaking at some recent statistic.

I'm sorry, I meant Gàidhlig. And I am speaking of a Gàidhealtachd. In Skye, I went to Sabhail Mór Ostaig (that means something like big barn, right?) but it appeared that only a small section of the college was devoted to Gàidhlig. But there was a guy teaching someone bagpipes. I had lunch on a beach. Basically I just drove around and looked at all their Highland "coo" and Highland sheep. At the Isle of Iona, I went to the old Abbey, the cloister, and the grave of MacBeth. I walked around the small town, stuck my head into a few shops, and the walked across the Island to the gorgeous beach. The water was freezing, of course, but I got in up to my thighs just the same. Very clear water. Then I saw some more sheep and took the ferry back to the Inverness area.

iona and skye certainly wouldn't be the place to hear Gàidhlig, at least not easily. if you wandered around skye, b'fhéidir. you'd really need to venture to na h-eileanan siar; barra might be best for Gàidhlig/Gaeilge communications, w/ its strong irish connections.

That's a shame, sure.

(Message edited by odwyer on August 27, 2006)

I'll post some pictures of my trip sometime.

Riona Said:
"Then only the kids whose parents care enough to put them into Gaelscoilana will be exposed to Irish and the rest will be largely unexposed to it."


Riona,
I think you may underestimate the ammount of parents that never had the opportunity to learn irish, and really want their kids to speak the language. In Dublin anyway, there is such a big call for Gaelscoileanna you wouldnt believe, most of them within a 10 mile radius of my old house waqs booked out 2-3 years in advance.

The gaelscoileanna (if you seen how sht some of them look) are suffereing from a severe lack of funding (like everyhing else in ireland)

I dont see the gaelscoileanna ever being short of a few students. It is well known that kids who learn several language at an early age are more clever than kids with only one language, I think iread that in the paper about gaelscoileanna!

Anyways, if theres too many gaelscoileanna, no one will want to go, if theres not enough the rebels will rebel calling for more.. there needs to be enough to keep the rebels at bay, and not enough for everyone to go.

I agree with Niallmac. It's like they say, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." ; )

seo an rud a dúirt odwyer: 'Scottish Gaelic is not doing well at all.'

seo an rud a dúirt riona: 'Gaelic is not doing well at all from all acounts I've heard'

i was listening to an interview on radio the other day(week?) w/ calum macdonald, a native of skye, a native speaker, and member of my fav gaelic band from the 80's, runrig. at one point they were discussing the language, and calum had some interesting responses. he mentioned the fact that in his school days, gaelic was all but forbidden in school. today his children learn gaelic at school, and at home. gaelic is being 'allowed,' if not actively promoted. he responded well to the typical 'do you dream in gaelic? do you think in gaelic?' questions. he put it rather nicely when he said, 'sometimes i'm in a gaelic mood, sometimes english.'
the most unfortunate comment had to do w/ his reference to the fact that it's so difficult to hold on to the gaelic culture when surrounded by béarla. this is very evident in the runrig music. their 1st album was COMPLETELY gaelic. how bold! then as they gained fame, the gaelic songs began to disappear. till finally there was the ane token gaelic song.
i lost interest in runrig when donaidh rothach left in the late 90's (to pursue politics!). well, to bring it back round, donaidh left politics a few years ago, and is currently director of development at Sabhal Mòr Ostaig.

btw i'm not much a fan of facts and figures, but recent stats:
12% of scots 'literate' in gaelic
100,000 'cognisant'
loss of gaelic speakers: 1,000/year a decade ago
750 last year
in 1997 the labour govt put in place some measures to protect the gaelic language, appointing a Minister for Gaelic and setting up taskforces. since then further ministerial groups have improved provisions for gaelic, including the establishment of Bòrd na Gàidhlig.
"for the first time in 100 years the percentage of young people using the language began to rise proportionately."


(gabhaim pardún agaibh as an teachtaireacht seo i mBéarla;an iomarca)

suas leis a ghaidhlig

Runrig seem to have done the 'cliche of success' routine -bring a new angle to the market place, using it as ones unique selling value -the thing that fualled the dream, and then as one becomes more rich, leave it behind and merge into homogeny!

That interview sounds interesting. I always wonder about the thinking/dreaming question for native or fluent Irish speakers, I'm sure most people would probably say both depending on circumstance as did the man in the interview. But it makes me curious all the same.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I never understood the dreaming question ... do I dream in English? I always thought it was like asking what language a silent film was in. Now, of course I speak English in my dreams, but I also remembering speaking Spanish on occasion and being quite aware of grammar and what I was saying. I dreamt I was playing with a little boy I know from Mexico and in my dream I was angry with myself because we were playing with a ball and I said tírame el pelota ... and then after I said it I was all doh! la pelota! Weird huh? But I definitely say I don't dream in a language.

As for thinking in a language, you can certainly think in a language that's not your native. My German teacher said she did it. Also once I noticed my neighbor (age 12, bilingual) doing some quick multiplication to himself in Japanese, interesting as he's lived more or less his whole life in the States and Japenese is very much his minority language. I'm sure it's because his Japanese mother homeschools him in Japanese, so he learned mathematics that way. So like you say Riona, I'm sure it depends on the situation. I read of two German men, married to Americans, who would discuss random issues like hardware an tools in English, yet everything else auf Deutsch, because they knew only the vocabulary in English, you know?

I read from a Welsh speaker that when two people are talking (especially non-natives) and a word isn't know by one or both, they just say it in English, which can make the language possibly either harder or easier to learn (but then think about a Welshman speaking to a Patagonian speaker!). In Big Brother 7, Glyn Wise and Imogen Thomas were having a conversation (Glyn being the native speaker, yet Imogen not I thinkn) and Glyn used a word Imogen didn't know ... so she paused, and then he repeated "jealousy," and the conversation continued in Welsh.

So, I'm sort of rambling now, sorry. This is interesting to me too. =D

A Aindreas,

How did you manage to see Big Brother from not America, I hope you know what I'm trying to say here a chara, English is not my favorite language, funny since its the only one I can actually speak.

I think that of course people dream in a language. With thoughts I think there are 2 kinds: the kind whare an idea just pops into your head, you remember you have to do something you forgot etc., and then there is the kind whare you're conciously thinking about a topic or trying to figure something out.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I notice that some of the 'thinking' alluded to here (Japanese kid) sounds like subvocal speech

liosta na scéal nuachtán (le déanaí); scéal faoi ghaidhlig:

'Significant' spending on Gaelic
Source: The BBC
"...BBC hopes to make a significant increase in investment in Gaelic broadcasting as part of the language's proposed digital channel...."


Gaelic added to Scotland strips
Source: The BBC
"Scotland's national football kit has had the word Alba, Gaelic for Scotland, added to it for the first time. "


Gaelic school brings hope for future of language
Source: The Herald

"Scotland's first Gaelic secondary school opened its doors to pupils yesterday in a move hailed as a significant step towards the preservation of the language. "

Dying billionaire gives another £100,000 to Skye's Gaelic college
Source: The Scotsman
"THE richest foreign landowner in Scotland has donated more of his fortune to help develop the Gaelic language and culture. "

Gaelic sets out to take over Scotland
Source: The Herald
"The first national plan to save the Gaelic language and make it an integral part of Scottish life in the 21st century is published today."

Government urged to back EU's Gaelic ruling
Source: The Scotsman
"THE UK government is being urged to back moves to allow Gaelic speakers to use their native tongue to communicate with the European Parliament. "

Gaelic set to make a cinematic comeback
Source: Times Online
"A YEAR after the Scottish Parliament gave Gaelic equal status with English as an official language of Scotland, the first Gaelic feature film is to be announced at the Cannes Film Festival this week. "

Gaelic school planned for Inverness
Source: The Scotsman
"SCOTLAND'S first purpose-built Gaelic school will be among 11 new schools constructed in the Highlands under a £134 million deal signed yesterday"