mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Cruinniú na mbád « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Barney (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.107
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 09:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have a question on the use of the verbal noun, here to mean 'gathering of the boats'.

How far can on take this construction? Can I use it for all these impersonal, sort of poetic constructions (from the point of view of English)

Could I meaningfully say: suaill(eann) na dtonn(ta), titim na mbáisteach/aigh

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 02:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Given a sentence such as:

Bhí sé ag caint le Máire faoi chruinniú na mbád.

, I would translate it as:

He was talking to Máire about the boat gathering.

(The genitive case of "báisteach" is "báistí". You can check these at http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir )

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.86.52.122
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 03:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A thiarcais!
Féach ar seo! --- http://www.kinvara.com/cnb.html

Is mór an trua nach raibh mé ann!

Le meas, Paul

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Barney (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.7
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 06:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's where I got the idea for the post!

FnB,
I agree that báistí is the current written form, but for ease of learning i find keeping some older conventions, where useful acts as a scaffold, the ach/aigh contrast at this time, appears easier untill one has learned the case system and the new strong pl system and how they interact.

I notice too, that in the Mayo dialect books I have, in all declensions, as far as I recall, the gen pl remains traditional, i.e. same as the Null sg, even if its a non-first declension noun (hence my dual written form)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 07:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

FnB,
I agree that báistí is the current written form, but for ease of learning i find keeping some older conventions, where useful acts as a scaffold, the ach/aigh contrast at this time, appears easier untill one has learned the case system and the new strong pl system and how they interact.

Are you saying that "báistí" was spelt as "báistigh" at some stage? Are you sure of that?

Masculine nouns ending in "ach" become "aigh".
Feminine nouns ending in "ach" become "aí".
(Same goes for adjectives)

an ghealach bhrónach -- solas na gealaí brónaí
an bháisteach bhrónach -- titim na báistí brónaí

an peacach brónach -- ainm an pheacaigh bhrónaigh
an máineach brónach -- ainm an mháinigh bhrónaigh

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Barney (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.252
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 08:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well in terms of sound, /i:/ and final /j/ are similar, according to the books (Erris Irish). the /j/ ends up like a short /i/, in spellings with final -idh, like céilidh/céilí, so that MAY be why -í was picked, as it approximates the original sound, although I have heard that pronouncing of /j/ at the end is an Ulster thing; definitly I have heard in 'madra rua', /ru@j/ or /ɾuəj/.

in "Beatha Aodha Ruaidh: the life of Red Hugh O'Donnell", 'red' is indeed spelt an/the old way, so there is suggestion that -í is a newer orthogrpahic replacement for -igh and -idh. This is only my suspecion,so perhaps someone with knowledge of pre-Caighdeán spelling can add to that.

Well on Lars Braesicke's site, only in the German version, we see http://www.braesicke.de/palat.htm

"Die Endung -ach / -each mehrsilbiger Wörter wird durch Palatalisierung zu -aigh / -igh
z.B.: báisteach - báistigh, bacach - bacaigh
Bei einsilbigen Wörtern auf -ch bleibt indes -ch erhalten.
z.B.: déach - déich, moch - moiche"

In the english version, a number of masc 1st declension nouns have the ach/aigh oppostion into the gen and null pl(go to http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/gram.htm and look up 'Nouns', there seems not be be a direct link)


an marcach m an mharcaigh na marcaigh na marcach rider(horseback)
an bacach m an bhacaigh na bacaigh na mbacach beggar
an taoiseach m an taoisigh na taoisigh na dtaoiseach chieftain, Prime Minister

but others:
an bealach m an bhealaigh na bealaí na mbealaí way
an t-éadach m an éadaigh na héadaí na n-éadaí clothing

and still others:
an samhradh m an tsamraidh na samhraí na samhraí Summer
an cogadh m an chogaidh na cogaí na gcogaí war
an deireadh m an deiridh na deirí na ndeirí end

so there is a little inconsistancy in how the spelling is achieved, I suppose due in part to the different histories of the endings.

For feminine nouns, it is -í as you said, with -igh in the dative singular

I wonder were older fem nouns spealt without -í too?

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.


©Daltaí na Gaeilge