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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » "ceart" & Ros na Rún « Previous Next »

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1743
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 07:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Since we were discussing the difference between tá an ceart agat and tá tú ceart recently, and since we're discussing Ros na Rún now, here's a bit of fianaise from the sobalscéal. In the same episode I quoted from earlier today, and in a sequence soon after the Jason and Ríona exchange (after the commercial break, actually), Mo covers her cleavage when Andy bursts in while she's trying on clothes with Lee. He apologizes ("Gabh mo leithscéal") and she replies, "Tá tú ceart", roughly "That's okay." (Bhí a fhios aige céard a bhí á dhéanamh aige, ar ndóigh!)

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 477
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 07:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thats interesting a Dhennis

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Eoin
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Username: Eoin

Post Number: 127
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 02:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sometimes I feel that we are too strict over the application of rules and regulations to language usage.

Lots of things we say in all languages may be incorrect gramatically - many times the weather people say that the roads will be "slippy" for instance and the the interchangeability of "I" and "me" is one of my pet aversions..not to, as it were, mention split infinitives.!

All sorts of incorrect phrases like the "Tá tú ceart!" of Mo, and many other things in Ros na Rún reflect the reality of conversation here - some of these phrases and ways of saying things are pure "béarlachas" but others are not.

As someone brought up in the English speaking part of Ireland I am inclined to use the "correct" words and phrases because I learnt these.

I might for instance say: "Tiomáinfaidh mé an carr" but the word here is "Beidh mé ag dribheáil an charr!"

I put "artola" into the carr while locally they use "peitril" - unless they have spent time in the states when they use "gas". :-)

Purists mightn't like it but then who's pure!

Eoin

Nuacht Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe agus Deisceart Mhuigheó http://anghaeltacht.net/ce

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Barney (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.221.252
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 08:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"an charr"

is car feminine where you libh?

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Pangur_dubh
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Username: Pangur_dubh

Post Number: 127
Registered: 03-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 11:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Masculine Genitive case after verbal noun 'dribheáil', Barney, is how I read it. On reflection, possession is required even in English if we make a direct translation, viz 'at the driving of a car'

Actually, Eoin, I would have favoured 'an chairr'. What do you think? But I take well your point that we can sometimes insist on an absolute perfection that is not necessarily encountered in a Gaeltacht i gcaint na ndaoine. And again, 'You and I' and 'You and me' are two quite separate gramatical functions in English, but we happily mix and match them, and whaddya know, we still understand each other.

That said, we should always respect the language to the best of our ability.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Actually, Eoin, I would have favoured 'an chairr'.

The following is correct.

ag tiomáint an chairr

It is misspelled if the "h" or "i" is absent.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1760
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

All sorts of incorrect phrases like the "Tá tú ceart!" of Mo, and many other things in Ros na Rún reflect the reality of conversation here

But in this case, I don't think Mo used the phrase incorrectly at all. She was not intending to say "you're right = tá an ceart agat = I agree with what you say", but rather to acknowledge his apology and indicate that it was no big deal: "tá tú ceart = you're fine, you're grand, no problem".

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Barney (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.220.28
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 06:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

~Thanks that; I was under the impression that the genitive would happen in such 'ag caitheamh airgid', but was not sure it would, well didnt know, flat out, it would when a definit article was used to 'definate' the noun.

I doubt too many natives use /ɼː/ as in [ə xaɼː] these days, so the genitive is harder to see in hearing

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 07:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Where you have [ag + verbal noun] which translates as "ing", the only time the noun doesn't go into the genitive is when it's indefinite and followed by adjectives or more nouns:

ag lorg fir = looking for a man
ag lorg fear = looking for men

ag lorg fear gorm = looking for a black man
ag lorg fir ghorma = looking for black men

ach:

ag lorg an fhir = looking for the man
ag lorg na bhfear = looking for the men

ag lorg an fhir ghoirm = looking for the black man
ag lorg na bhfear ngorm = looking for the black men
(Either "gorm" or "ngorm" in the line above)

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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Barney (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.221.36
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 06:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

FnB,
your post is precient for me as I was wondering about the gen pl. "ag lorg na bhfear = looking for the men" shows me that weak or strong plural, the gen pl form is used.

I needed to know when I wrote this poem, and on the last line:

péisteanna sa talamh
éadaí dubha air
ag damhsa sa dorcha
ag ithe na bprátaí

[PS. the form it is is because I passed by a TV programme this morning talking about industrial worm farming to sell to garden centres someone else was watching. They are fed on potatoes and kept under black wrap, if one is interested :)]

I wrote the poem to test my vocab and inflexions, so there is no need for a review! Dennis mentioned lately that whole sentances are multidimensional; writing is also a gentler way to ease onesself into production, I think, than speaking.

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1194
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 01:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"ag lorg na bhfear = looking for the men" shows me that weak or strong plural, the gen pl form is used.

In general, a noun has four forms:

nominative singular
nominative plural
genitive singular
genitive plural

In the case of "fear", they are (in order):

fear
fir
fir
fear

A noun is said to have a weak plural if its nominative singular is the same as its genitive plural. In such cases, any adjectives that follow are also placed in their weak genitive plural. Examples:

ag lorg na bhfear mór
ag lorg na mbróg mór

ach:

ag lorg na mbuachaillí móra
ag lorg na háiteanna móra

As you can see, weak-pluralness is orthogonal to gender.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Ceartaigh rud ar bith atá mícheart -- úsáid phrásaí go háirithe.

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