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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Variations of slender d « Previous Next »

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 459
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 08:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chairde,

I was wondering in which areas slender d is pronounced like j, which locations it is pronounced as just a d and whare it is pronounced like a twitch of both. (obviously I know that j is just an aproximation of the sound, the way an American might write it phenetically, but I assume you know what I mean.)

Go raibh maith agaibh

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1384
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 05:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

/d'/ :

As an English j : Donegal (younger speakers), & in the language of most learners whose mothertongue is English (Dubliners etc).

As a d followed by a y-glide (a bit as in UK English "dew"): Connaught, Donegal (older speakers).

As a non-velarised d: Munster. I think the palatalisation is hardly heard in Munster, in the case of slender t and d's.

Maybe some of us can precise what I've given here: there may be exceptions etc, but I think it's right in general.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 460
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 01:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA a chara,

That is around what I thought. Although I didn't know about the distinction between the younger and the older speakers.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 195.29.81.165
Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 02:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I heard a woman from Inis Meáin pronouncing slender d's and t's as English j and ch. People from Conamara however have very 'soft' pronunciation of these sounds - eg. they pronounce the t' something like the 'ts' in English words such as 'biTS'...
Slan.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1737
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Conamara however have very 'soft' pronunciation of these sounds - eg. they pronounce the t' something like the 'ts' in English words such as 'biTS'...

Is fíor sin, ach is dóigh liom go mbraitheann sé aois agus ar ghnéas an chainteora. Cloistear an fuaimniú sin níos minice ó mhná agus ó dhaoine óga, mura bhfuil dul amú orm.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 453
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 03:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't agree with Lughaidh in his analysis.

The natural pronounciation of /d'/ in Connacht and Donegal is [dz'] kind, where [z'] is a sound now rarely found in English. Accordingly /t'/ is [ts'], where [s']=s+y sound still pronounced by old-fashioned British speakers in words like "issue", "tissue".

Pronounciation like English "j", "ch" was confined to Mayo and Teilinn (spelling?), but under English language is spreading (and being spread) by learners.

Munster has perfectly valid [d'] and [t']. Heard myself for one week while in Músgraí and Corca Dhuibhne. It is the same soft sounds as in Slavic languages. I imagine it is very difficult to hear this difference for people whose native language doesn't make this difference. The sound is pure without following sybillant, so that's why it is not easy to hear for an untrained ear.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1389
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 08:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The dz and ts pronounciation in Connemara is mainly (maybe only) the women’s one. I’ve heard one male singer who had that pronounciation too.

Never heard any dz and ts in Donegal so far (and never heard it outside Connemara, actually). Where in Donegal have you heard it?

Teilinn is Teelin in English.

That’s right, the ch and dj pronounciation does exist in the Aran islands.

For /d’/ and /t’/ in Munster, maybe they sound as in some Slavic languages, but not as in Czech and Russian, as far as I know. In Czech and Russian, soft t's and d's sound, if I remember well, like /t'/ and /d'/ in Donegal older speakers' Irish (and in Donegal sean-nós).

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 456
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 08:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Then what you are saying means that older speakers in Donegal have Munster sound, 'cause Munster sound is EXACTLY Russian [t'] and [d']. :-) Beliemme, my mother is Russian ;-)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1391
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 08:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe you're not talking about the same Munster sound then. The Munster t's and d's I've heard are barely palatalised (so few that we can even say they aren't), they almost sound like plain t's and d's as in French, Spanish, German before e or i. I think the difference between broad and slender d/t in Munster (according to what I've heard) is that Munster broad t/d are velarised, while slender ones are not.

Where in Munster have you heard speakers with that Russian-like palatalised sounds?

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 457
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 09:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I stayed for one week in Músgraí, 5km from Cill na Martra, the speaker was about 50-55, native of the region as I understand it.

Again - slender [d'] is a tricky sound, as it cannot be too palatalised because if you try to raise the tongue higher the tip of tongue inevitably slips of the ridge behind the teeth and you get sybillant-coda, the familiar Conamara [dz'] instead of [d']. I can't explain it better. Still you can hear palatalisation especially before other slender consonants.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 458
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 09:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.fiosfeasa.com/bearla/language/caol.htm

Look at this page - slender [d']("deoch") and [t'] ("tí") are exactly as in Russian - and very different from plain German sounds. Inis dom cad tánn tú ag cloisint!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1739
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The dz and ts pronounciation in Connemara is mainly (maybe only) the women’s one. I’ve heard one male singer who had that pronounciation too.

Éist le Jason ar Ros na Rún. Mar shampla (ó bhí mé ag breathnú ar an episode seo inné), tá sé ag caint le Ríona faoi bhogadh go Gaillimh. Deir sise go bhfuil sí sásta, agus deir seisean "Bhfuil tú cinnte?" Tá an 't' caol an-soilléir ansin, agus is é an 't' "banúil" atá aige.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1741
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 12:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

i.s. Leis an sampla seo a chloisteáil, téigh go:

http://www.tg4.tv/

Ansin go "Dráma" > "Ros na Rún"

Ansin cliceáil???K??0?fuil an cur síos seo air:
quote:

Titeann Vince agus Caitríona amach mar gheall ar mhí na meala. Tá socruithe na bainise ag titim as a chéile agus tá Caitríona trína chéile. Cén chaoi a n-éireoidh le lá na bainise ar chor ar bith?


Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1393
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Look at this page - slender [d']("deoch") and [t'] ("tí") are exactly as in Russian - and very different from plain German sounds. Inis dom cad tánn tú ag cloisint!

Sin a bhí mé ’ráidht, ní hé sin na t-annaí agus na d-annaí caola Muimhneacha mar a chuala mé iad. The ones of the website are as in Russian, as you say, but what I heard from Munster speakers was much less palatalised than that.

A Dhennis, d’éist mé leis a’ ghasar sin, agus tá sin ceart: tá t-annaí agus d-annaí banúla aige :-) Is féidir gur óna mháthair a d’fhoghlaim sé Gaeilg :-) Ach leis an fhírinne a ráidht, is ag mná a bíos na fuaimeannaí sin don chuid is mó, agus anois, ó dhaoiní óga a fuair a gcuid Gaeilge ó mhná, dar liom.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 473
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 05:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So the people of Aran use those ch and dj sounds. Do the all of them do it or just some depending on gender age etc.

There's a Riona on Ros Na Run is there. Is she a good sort of a woman or a foolish one, it being a soap opera-esque program and all.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3662
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.tg4.ie/Dram/rion.htm

quote:

Is duine cúramach freagrach imníoch í Ríona. Tugann sí aire do dhaoine go nádúrtha.


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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 474
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 05:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

She sounds nice then.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Óráid_thoirní
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Username: Óráid_thoirní

Post Number: 28
Registered: 07-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 06:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, does she ever sound nice. She says "Right" one too many times, but other than that, she's got a nice soft accent.
On Ros na Run, she happens to be my favourite actress. It must be something with the name Riona.

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1397
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 01:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So the people of Aran use those ch and dj sounds. Do the all of them do it or just some depending on gender age etc.

I guess it is used by all Aran people. That ch/dj feature is mentioned for the Aran isles in the Linguistic Atlas and Survey of the Irish Dialects, in An Teanga Bheo: Conamara, and in both books, they don't mention any gender/age difference.

You can hear it too on the CD ’An Raicín Álainn’ of Lasairfhíona Ní Chonaola, traditional singer from Inis Oírr.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 463
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 02:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

So the people of Aran use those ch and dj sounds



Never, nimmer, jamais

At least not on Inis Mór. Inis Mór pronunciation is pretty similar to the rest of Conamara. No audible difference - at least to my ears.

There was a link thrown in some time ago from a university where the same samples sentences were read by speakers from around Ireland. Unfortunately I don't http now, as I saved the whole fun-stuff as word document.

There were speakers from Ceann Tráigh, Baile an Sceilge (Uíbh Ráthach), Sean Phobail (An Rinn) - all of the speakers pronounce the same palatalised "d" and "t" as at Fios Feasa site. Does anyone have the link still?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1400
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 03:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, you’re right. I’m after having a look at An Teanga Bheo, and they say that the affricates (ch and dj sounds) are common on the two smallest isles of Aran, and in one village of Inis Mór. Thanks for your observation :-)

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 267
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 08:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mo dhá phingin isteach in bhur gcaint:

quote:

The sound is pure without following sybillant, so that's why it is not easy to hear for an untrained ear.



1. The Russian [t’ d’] are affricated and, to put it technically, has a recursion period of high frequency noise, i.e. has [s’ z’] (accordingly) as an offset part. Though of course they are not affricates [t’s’ d’z’] like in Belorussian.

2. From what I’ve heard (but I haven’t heard much) the Connemara [t’]’s and [d’]’s are identical for me to those in Russian: déanta, té are said with a slight sybillant touch. I would agree with Roman as to the hissing inherent to the Connemara speech. And as far as I know, [dzh]’s and [tch]’s are generally not typical even among the youngsters.

quote:

'cause Munster sound is EXACTLY Russian [t'] and [d']. :-) Beliemme, my mother is Russian ;-)



3. According to Green [1997, 42] (there he quotes Sutton [1992-93]) the palatalised coronal plosives in Munster are ‘apical postalveolar’ which implies that they are absolutely different from the Russian palatilised [t’ d’] which are dentals. But I can’t judge here since I’ve practically never heard a Munsterman.

If that is the case, I’d have to admit that Lughaidh’s perception of these sounds is acoustically valid when he writes

quote:

The Munster t's and d's I've heard are barely palatalised (so few that we can even say they aren't), they almost sound like plain t's and d's as in French, Spanish, German before e or i. I think the difference between broad and slender d/t in Munster (according to what I've heard) is that Munster broad t/d are velarised, while slender ones are not.



Strictly speaking, the last sentence is true in case of all Irish broad dentals: they are not velarised.

That’s how things stand.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 464
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

The Russian [t’ d’] are affricated ... Though of course they are not affricates [t’s’ d’z’] like in Belorussian.


Oh, no! We had the same discussion on lingvoforum.net some time last year when it eventually descended into flames. The only difference that those guys tried to prove that Belorussian and Russian sounds are IDENTICAL, and I am deaf enough not to hear their equivalence. And more - that I am under spelling illusion - that is why I hear the difference. I just do not want to engage in this kind of futile discussion again. Let us agree on the principle that all of us have our own ears, and have right to make our own judgements, alright? And besides what you said is contradictory - as there is no meaningful distinction between affricated sounds and affricates.

quote:

From what I’ve heard (but I haven’t heard much) the Connemara [t’]’s and [d’]’s are identical for me to those in Russian: déanta, té are said with a slight sybillant touch.

Somehow I hear it differently. If I had to spell those words with Russian letters I would spell them дзеэнта, цеэ - and if you wish - the sounds are exactly Belorussian to my ears.
quote:

the palatalised coronal plosives in Munster are ‘apical postalveolar’

According to Brian Ó Cuív, who is undoubtely THE authority on dialect of Baile Bhuirne - the sounds are dental, and possibly alveolar with younger generation. But not postalveolar and still not apical. When choosing between Green and Ó Cuív - I prefer the latter gan amhras.

quote:

But I can’t judge here since I’ve practically never heard a Munsterman.

I was there - I heard with my own years - normal not-affricated, dental sounds.

Peter - check this out:

http://www.fiosfeasa.com/bearla/language/caol.htm

Look at this page - slender [d']("deoch") and [t'] ("tí") are exactly as in Russian - and very different from plain German sounds. Inis dom cad tánn tú ag cloisint! Those are the sounds I heard my self one week long EVERY DAY.

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John T. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 61.159.248.193
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 02:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We have some Russian experts on the board! Tell me, how does the Irish slender r relate to the Russian soft r? When I was in Russia I found that on the odd occasion when I said a word like рыцарь I was not understood!

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1401
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 07:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As far as I know, the Russian soft r isn't like any Irish r.

However, the single slender r (/r'/) is exactly (at least in Donegal) the same sound as Czech ř, but I don't think that sound exist in other Slavic languages.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 466
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 02:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tell me, how does the Irish slender r relate to the Russian soft r?


quote:

As far as I know, the Russian soft r isn't like any Irish r.



The question (and Lughaidh's answer) is wrongly formulated. There is no single "Irish slender r", as there is no single "Irish slender /d'/ or /t'/". I am no expert on Donegal sounds - but as far as I know most often the sound is substituted with [j] (like in English "y"), if in other positions it is like Czech ř - so be it. I can confirm that no other widerly used Slavic language has the same sound (not sure about Lusitian in Eastern Germany). But...

From what I heard - correct me, enthusiasts of Conamara speech - slender /r'/ is realised in the west as a [z'] (or "зь" in Russian letters).

In the south - like the sound on Fios Feasa site (and actually what I heard myself in Múscraí)IS Russian [r'], although I remember reading Marion Gunn on Gaelic-B stating that it sounds like -gg- in word exaggerate. Never met/ heard this pronunciation myself, though.

Cheers


(Message edited by Róman on August 19, 2006)

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 195.29.81.165
Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It sounds to me like a palatalised flap. Something like the American 'dd' in 'ladder' but pronounced somewhere behind the upper front teeth. That might sound similar to the Russian soft z, but it's rather an approximant than a fricative sound.
That's my impression.
Beir bua
Daithí

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 207.200.116.196
Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 02:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I couldn't help but laugh when I read this thread...

When it comes right down to it...the human voice is as unique as a fingerprint. And while I am sure there are a linguist or two who will probably pull their hair out because of the statement I am about to make...it is impossible to give a specific sound value to human speech. Why? Because the formation of the human voice is only half the equation, you are neglecting the other half which is the reception of sound by the human ear.

Frankly, people hear sounds differently and naturally try to match them with sounds that are familiar. This is why some people will say it sounds like a German this or a Russian that...because to them this is how they hear it.

They can give all the liguistic babble they want, all they are really doing is trying to prove how the sounds they perceive are being formed. Much the same way a math person will show their answers with proofs. But when it comes down to it...there is more than one way to get the same answer in math, and so too with sound.

If anyone really gets into it, the formation of sound is rather complicated. Not only in the formation, but in the reception of sound also. The only way two people can make the exact same sounds is if they are clones. And if anyone is interested...when they cloned Dolly they found small differences in their vocal patterns also. If I remember correctly their vocal freq was off by like .000005, but that is still enough to seperate them. Not even clones can make the exact same sounds.

My suggestion is to stop trying to relate the sounds to other languages. Listen, try to copy as you hear it, and go from there.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 354
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 09:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh John:
My suggestion is to stop trying to relate the sounds to other languages. Listen, try to copy as you hear it, and go from there.

Nicely said. In the swirl of the conversation, most learners have all they can do to pull up the correct vocab. in a timely fashion and get their various parts of speech in the right place. Trying to keep palatised postalveolar flaps distinct from their plosive fricative dentals would send most learners off the deep end.

Keep it simple. Listen to a lot of Irish . . .emulate the sounds you hear from native speakers/advanced learners . . . use what you're learning as often as possible. Sin a méid.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 268
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 11:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi!

quote:

And besides what you said is contradictory - as there is no meaningful distinction between affricated sounds and affricates.



Hmm??? I've never said that. Meaningful distinctions are a matter of phonology. You can state that only in case of a particular language where there are both affricates and affricated plosives. It's not the case of any of the languages under consideration (Russian, Belorussian, Irish)...

Not a single sound on the Fios Feasa page resembles its Russian counterpart. The plosives are apical and don't sound dental, probably, they ARE postalveolar (Actually, that laboured pronunciation of palatalised consonants seems so unnatural to me as to a native speaker of Russian...).

No offense, but I'm afraid, you have an accent other than "Standard" when speaking Russian. ;)

quote:

It sounds to me like a palatalised flap



Exactly. The Russian /р'/ is a flap itself. It's no vibrant. The Connemara Irish palatalised flap is more energetic and intense and a bit fricative too, to my ear.

quote:

while I am sure there are a linguist or two who will probably pull their hair out because of the statement I am about to make...it is impossible to give a specific sound value to human speech.



John, you underscore speech acoustics. You are right, there's speech perception as part of phonetics as well. But nevertheless one can describe a speech pattern in accurate physical terms.

quote:

The only way two people can make the exact same sounds is if they are clones.



For the Language such accuracy is not required. The human brain is capable of making precisions and extracting distinctive patterns.

Peter

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 207.200.116.196
Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 09:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Peter,

The only way to get an accurate representation of the human voice is to run it through a spectrum analyzer with special filters...the end result is a single wave that doesn't correctly represent the voice but rather the unusual characteristics of that voice. That is how we are able to veryify voices. The only problem is that the single wave is not 100 accurate. It's close, around 90-95 but not close enough.

When you say "physical terms," you are correct. You can say that a sound is made by doing "this" physically speaking. What you can not do is say that the Irish slender d is made by doing this...the reason, this sound changes according to the language, region, dialect, and finally the person.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 269
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 02:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

What you can not do is say that the Irish slender d is made by doing this...the reason, this sound changes according to the language, region, dialect, and finally the person.



Why? An articulatory gesture brings about an acoustic pattern. And one can _film_ movements of a speaker's articulatory organs when s/he produces the sound. Thus, one finds correspondence between certain physical properties and articulatory movements.

Or we can trace articulation of a certain sound and correlate it with a specific acoustic image ourselves. Lots of ppl can do it.

Another question is individuality of sound realisations. But that's a matter of perception, that's where non-trivial brain work begins (which features in the signal are relevant for understanding of a message and which are not, etc.)

It's obvious that the _same_ sound enunciated by one and the same speaker physically differs from time to time, but it's again obvious that the speaker him/herself perceives these realisations as identical. So, that means all of these realisations share something in common, that's something that can be defined and is more or less constant.

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 207.200.116.196
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 08:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And that is exactly my point, that the formation of a sound differs between people. Not just every now and then, but every single time.

Yes it is true, thanks to modern science we have gotten rather good at "filming" the formation of sounds, and yes there are specific physical parameters that must be met to form the sounds...I agree. Our brains are smarter than we are...just because they can perceive two different sounds as being the same, doesn't make them so.

What I was trying to say is that some of the comments in this thread where saying the slender Irish d sounds like this...or it sounds like that. Frankly, you can not say this because "what it sounds like," is a perception...not an actual.

To be honest, Ireland did set specific sounds to the letters when they created that dialect for the written standard, the problem is that this dialect has been rejected not only be Ireland, but the rest of the world as well.

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Niallmac
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Post Number: 53
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Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 09:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

the end result is a single wave that doesn't correctly represent the voice but rather the unusual characteristics of that voice.

I beleive that is untrue. Over sampling can of a signal can represent any signal exactly. Turning a signal from analog to digital and yet represent it perfectly is simple. Have a look at shannons sampling theorem.

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Mac Léinn na Tonnta (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 10:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

the end result is a single wave that doesn't correctly represent the voice but rather the unusual characteristics of that voice.



I think that the resultant wave described above is now a function of frequency instead of time, so that the characteristics of the wave are still accurately represented. The resultant wave could be re-transformed back into the time domain and you would arrive back at the original wave form.

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Peter
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I believe that John meant that after sampling and quantisation you'll lose a lot of information about the analog signal: digital representation is always a simplification. I'm afraid you can't get back from digital to analog and restore all the data.

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Niallmac
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 11:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

i dont think thats correct either (note: could be wrong)
You can reconstruct a signal exactly using its frequencies (sinusoids). Once the sampling frequency is no greater than 2 times the maximum frequency

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Niallmac
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 11:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I just realised im being an eejit.. i will stop now :-)

(Message edited by niallmac on August 24, 2006)

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Peter
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 03:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The thing is there are all freqences in an analog signal, so your can’t take a 2 times higher sampling rate. You’ll lose something inevitably! Though those higher frequencies can be: 1) not heard (>20000Hz) or 2) irrelevant if you work with speech (10000Hz would suffice). :)

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Canuck
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Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 04:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't know why you are being an eejit Niallmac. Oversampling at a rate much much greater than the Nyquist sampling rate (2x) will provide a very good representation of the original sound. I imagine, that this could be done to such an extent that we couldn't measure any difference due to tool uncertainties.

http://www.efunda.com/DesignStandards/sensors/methods/DSP_nyquist.cfm

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Niallmac
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 05:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm gona get off this topic because i just done an exam in college in june in Optical and Image processing which told me all the things i said above. If yous disgree fine, i could be wrong, im no genious. But Im getting flashbacks from that bleedin exam.. hardest subject in college so far.

(sorry i meant IS greater than 2 times the max)

Basically what i think is:

You can reconstruct a continuous time signal EXACTLY from its samples, if the samples are taken at a rate that IS GREATER than 2 times the maximum frequency.

If you disagree with that your wrong.




Anyhoo, This is kindof irrelevant to the original topic and we should get off it.. probably.

(Message edited by niallmac on August 25, 2006)

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Canuck
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 02:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Niallmac,
I can confirm with 100% certainty that you are correct.

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Abigail
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Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 03:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Chiming in a bit late, but I've observed the same thing Lughaidh was mentioning earlier about the difference between men's and women's pronunciation. It's not absolute and I could name several female singers who don't exhibit it... but here are a couple of sound clips just for fun.

(Both of these are from the RTÉ release Buaiteoirí Chorn Uí Riada, which is unfortunately out of print. There are no lyrics in the liner notes, so any transcription errors are mine alone.)

I've highlighted the words to be listening for...

---------------------------------------------------

An Sagairtín dhá rá ag Máirtín Tom Sheáinín Mac Donnacha (Leitir Caladh)
http://www.nd.edu/~amitche3/sounds/an_sagairtin_clip.mp3
Ó, éist, a chailín deas is ná sil deoir,
Mar ní dhuitse a rugadh mé ná dh'aon bhean beo
Ach baistfidh mé do leanbh duit le cúnamh Dé,
Agus dhá mbeadh breith ar m'aiféala a'm, ba leat mé féin.



Cúirt Bhaile Nua dhá rá ag Treasa Ní Mhiolláin (Inis Mór)
http://www.nd.edu/~amitche3/sounds/cuirt_bhaile_nua_clip.mp3
Tá mise tinn brónach le fada
Deir mo mhuintir gur athraigh mo shnua
Ag dearcadh go géar ar an gcailín
'Tá 'na cónaí i gCúirt Bhaile Nua.


---------------------------------------------------

Now, I'm a mathematician, not a linguist; I'm afraid I wouldn't know a palatalised postalveolar velofricative if it came up and bit me on the leg. This is just in case there are other people like me out there, who'd benefit from a concrete example of the sounds that are being discussed.

Abigail

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Peter
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Post Number: 272
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Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 09:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Guys,

I believe you aren't going to argue over the loss of accuracy in amplitude?


Abigail, those samples are great.

But if it was an example of gender difference in pronunciation, I'd say I din't hear any. All the palatalised sounds in the two clips are dental.

What I found interesting here is that the woman sings aG dearcadh ... ar aN gcailín.

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 02:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I noticed she said that also...isn't it funny how varied the pronunciaiton can be. Actually, I think she did that for singing reasons...

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Abigail
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Post Number: 42
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Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 07:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, they're both basically dental as far as I can tell.

I wish I knew the technical terms to describe what I'm hearing. The best I can do without them is that to me, Treasa's "deir" sounds almost like dzare and Máirtín's "deas" almost like jass.

Abigail

Tá fáilte roimh chuile cheartú!

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Peter
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Post Number: 274
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Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 04:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Abigail,

I don't hear 'jass', but rather dzice :) Donno, ears differ... John was right here.

As for me, I hear that Treasa's 'deir' has more [z'] than Mairtín's 'deas' which is possibly the effect of the following vowel, as [e] presupposes a higher degree of palatalisation and, thus, friction.

j, hm... No idea.



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