I was hoping some one could explain to me; the Catholics churches involvement with the lose of the language and also Saint Patty’s day...

I have had numerous discussions about what exactly the "snakes" Saint Patrick threw out of Ireland were.

I was also actually under the impression the language was all but gone, again poor learning on my part.

Hopefully someone will be able to give me correct information concering my thoughts. Thank you

As far as I know, language preservation wasn't one of the top priorities of the Catholic church in the 19th century, the time in which Irish lost huge amounts of ground, replaced by English. I think that they were more concerned about securing rights for the Catholics, necessary of course mind you. Daniel O'Connell who championed rights for the people (very great of course) didn't think so much of Irish or so I heard, saying that English was the way of the future and Irish wasn't important for a successful future.
Keep in mind that all this I've written above is what I've learnt but if anyone knows better or more correct me le do thoil.

As to the snakes, most people know that there were no snakes in Ireland. So this could be taken as a symbolic story perhaps.

Yeah Saint Patrick's Day is fantastic! I suppose that's self explanitory :).

And if you feel bad for not knowing everything don't. It is easy enough to pick things up from places that are incorrect.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

I have had numerous discussions about what exactly the "snakes" Saint Patrick threw out of Ireland were

I think the generally accepted explanation is that it is a symbolic story referring to St Patrick driving out the less pleasant parts of the previous pagan religion.

Yeah I'd say the 'snakes' refer to the original Celtic religious leaders 'Druids'. Prime example of early Christian propaganda.

Not quite.

Irealnd converted peacefully, many of the druids became monks. (There is no record of any martyr for the faith until much later).

But there were some practices in the old religion which couldn't be "baptised".

Knowing how my great-grandfather and grandfather told stories, it's possible that somewhere along the line a parent or two wanted to tell a story ascribing some great deed to St. Patrick for a bedtime story, looked around at an island which was snakeless and said, "see, he did that."

Or something like that. The snakes may not be symbolic of anything, like the story about the unicorn not making it to Noah's Ark and that being the reason why there are no unicorn today.

And yes, Riona, for Catholics in the 19th century (and leading up to it) it was of primary importance to earn and secure rights (it had been technically illegal to be Catholic in the uk for centuries before 1829. I found that out the hard way trying to put together my family tree (what do you mean there are no headstones for 200 years?).

I have a giant, old family Bible from 1844 with a dedication to

"that loyal, religious and enlightened body of men, the Catholics of the United Kingdom..."

With an emphasis there on the loyal, I suppose. Finally having something from the government saying that to follow the religion no longer constituted an act of treason was a big thing...the last thing they wanted to do was risk all that by reinforcing how they were different (language). It had taken many bloody years to prove "we can be good citizens of the uk and Catholic at the same time." There was a fear that one incident or a change in government could bring back the old strife.

Keep in mind that the Church is global, its concern with Ireland was that the Irish should have access to the Church and freedom to be in it, whatever language they said their bedtime prayers in.

Those coming to the US did the same thing, lost their language and learned english in order to show what good Americans they were. I imagine the same thing, already in progress in Ireland for centuries, gathered steam after 1829 and a generation later the famine did what little bit personal choice hadn't.

I would have to agree with Antaine. From what I've read, the famine and english persecution of the language had more to do with its decline than did the Catholic Church.

Ta seanscéal ann faoi Naomh Ibar (nó Ivar) a bhí in Wexford fadó. Dhíbir sé francaigh as Beg Erin, oileann i Port Loch Garman. B’fhéidir tá sceanscéalta seo atá coitianta.


Corrections appreciated

the Church simply had its own priorities. free practice of the faith was paramount. what matter the language spoken when the immortal souls of millions of the faithful were at stake? I'm sure they felt it was a small price to pay, and with the power of the british empire, inevitable that the language would disappear anyway...

B’fhéidir tá go bhfuil sceanscéalta mar seo atá coitianta

Tá, gan amhras.

(Cuan Loch Garman atá i gceist agat, is dóigh liom).

The leaders of the church in the nineteenth century would have been part of the rising Catholic middle classes. Aspiring to respectability they tended to promote English.
Tá níos mó faoin dtéama sin le léamh in alt suimiúil ag Seán de Fréine sa leabhar 'Gnéithe den Ghorta' (Coiscéim, BÁC, 1995).

The Irish church thus differed from the Welsh baptists, who did so much to keep the native language alive and indeed from the Polish catholic church.
Perhaps the Irish clergy served their two foreign masters too well (to paraphrase Stephen Daedalus).

quote:

Tá seanscéal ann faoi Naomh Ibar ...

Is ó Ghiraldus Cambrensis a fuair muid an scéal seo. Tá sé le fáil in Topography of Ireland a scríobh sé sa bhliain A.D. 1187:

quote:

There is in the province of Leinster a district called Fernigenan (Ferns), which is only separated from Wexford by the river Slaney. From this district the larger species of mice, commonly called rats, were so entirely expelled by the curse of St. Yvorus, the bishop, whose books they had probably gnawed, that none were afterwards bred there, or could exist if they were introduced.

Is cosúil gur as Fearna, áfach, ní as Beggery Island, a dibríodh na francaigh... ach is cuma. Scéal ón mbéaloideas atá ann. Some accounts make Ibar a contemporary of Patrick, and put them in competition. Rats versus snakes! ;-)

quote:

I have a giant, old family Bible from 1844 with a dedication to

"that loyal, religious and enlightened body of men, the Catholics of the United Kingdom..."

Cé a chuir an Bíobla sin i gcló? The British and Foreign Bible Society? Ní bhíodh cóipeanna den Bhíobla ag na Caitlicigh san am sin, agus ní raibh an nós acu é a léamh sa bhaile, murab ionann agus na Prostastúnaigh.

Is Bíobla Meiriceánach Caitliceach. Is Douay-Rheims é leis na notaí Haydock agus Challoner.

Tá an foilsigh céanna (ach úrnua, chlúdaigh mé mo chuidse arís) anseo:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-DOUAY-RHEIMS-CATHOLIC-BIBLE-1884-DA-VINCI-RARE_W0QQi temZ260016987664QQihZ016QQcategoryZ29223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Is féidir libh an dúthracht a léamh sa grianghraf.

Is foilsigh 1885 mo chuidse (ní foilsigh 1884 i ndiaidh an iomláin)...níl na focail "Boston W.L. Richardson & Co" ar an leathanach...tá mo cóip bán ansin. Shíl mé a bhí sé clóite i Nua Eabhrac ach ní feidir liom "Nua Eabhrac" a fáil anois...

Is cosúil go raibh siad coitianta, tá go leor ar ebay...

(corrections welcome)

Perhaps the first record of a martyr was a druid martyr!--how ironic

I think this story is from Muirchú's short biography of Patrick.

Patrick had a bit of row with the court driuids of King Loegaire and the blood did flow.

The druid Lochru dared to insult the Catholic faith in front of Patrick. Patrick then prayed for his death, and he was promptly swept up by a magic wind and dashed down head first on a stone. That shut him up--permanently.

More magical mayhem followed with his mate Lucet Mael. He ended up burned to death.

Don't fool around with Christian wizards.

I suppose all this should be taken with a grain of salt.

But one would do well to remember the noteworthy quip of Brian O'Nolan:

Two famous Dublin scholars have proved that there were two St. Patricks and no God.

Ní ionann "Catholic" agus "Roman Catholic"!

Dearcann roinnt den Eaglais Anglacánach orthu féin mar chuid den Eaglais Caitliceach (agus aontaíonn an tEaglais Caitliceach Romhánach leo).

Seans gurbh as sin a eascraíonn an nath ar Bhíobla Antaine.

---

http://www.ireland.anglican.org/bcp2004/hc/HC1_gaelige.htm

quote:

Agus creidim in aon Eaglais Chaitliceach Aspalda amháin.
Admhaím in aon bhaiste amháin chun maithiúnas na bpeacaí.
Agus tá súil agam le hAiséiri na marbh,
agus le beatha an tsaoil atá le teacht. Áiméan

Go raibh maith agat, Aonghus.

Hi Dennis,


I am very appreciative of your postings. You might be interested in my specualtion on Saint Ibar:

"...
Fernigenan (Ferns), which is only separated from Wexford by the river Slaney"

The modern town of Ferns is in County Wexford but quite distant from Wexford Town. I can't see describing it as just across the Slaney.

I read yeaterday ( but can't find today!) a web page that said that Beg Erin was no longer an island but was now part of the mainland.

I was just in St. Ibar's Cemetary in Wexford visting the grave of my paternal grandparents. It is just across the Slaney from Wexford Town. My Mom refers to it as "Crosstown." I wonder if this cemetary and church mark the location of Beg Erin in the district of Ferns?

There was also an academic article (by Franklnad?on rattus that was using the antiquity of the Saint Ibar story to date the introduction of the rat to the British Isles. Apparently, you can blame the Romans!

Fearna (Ferns) would have been the capital of the district, and of Leinster at the time. It is also the seat of the archbishop to this day.

(Message edited by aonghus on August 11, 2006)

quote:

Is Bíobla Meiriceánach Caitliceach.

Aha. Go raibh maith agat! (Is Bíobla Caitliceach é.)

quote:

Tá an foilsigh céanna (ach úrnua, chlúdaigh mé mo chuidse arís) anseo

Ní déarfainn "foilsigh" anseo. "Eagrán" (edition) an focal ceart, is dócha, sa chás seo.

quote:

introduction of the rat to the British Isles. Apparently, you can blame the Romans!

Bhíodh cuid acu ar bhád ar bith, de ghnáth. (Tháinig siad go Hawaii leis na chéad lonnaitheoirí ó Tahiti.) Is dócha go raibh francaigh in Éirinn le fada an lá!

Más buan mo chuimhne, bhí luch mór donn ann, agus luch mór eile - an francach - a tháinig leis na Normannaigh.

Sin cúis an ainm.

Seo toradh fánach ó google:


http://www.ireland.com/timeseye/wild/article_p3b.htm

http://www.ehsni.gov.uk/pubs/publications/Wild001.pdf

quote:

There are two species of rat living wild in Northern Ireland, the brown (or common) rat and the black (or ship) rat. Both species are very similar in appearance and can be either black or brown but the black rat tends to be smaller and has a longer more slender tail.Both species were introduced by man. The black rat probably arrived in Ireland 1,500 years ago and became widespread around human habitations. The fleas carried by this species spread the Black Death (bubonic plague) during the Middle Ages. The brown rat did not arrive until the 18th Century when it began to replace the black rat. Today black rats are confined to dockside warehouses and food stores while the brown rat is widespread.

quote:

http://www.ireland.com/timeseye/wild/article_p3b.htm

Alt suimiúil! GRMA. Tá neart francach againn anseo i Seattle!

Agus tá neart Francach againn anseo i gCarcassonne comh maith! Ach gan eireabaill, den chuid is mó. Ach ní sin le rá gur cat leisciúil é Pangur! :-)

Jimnuaeabhrac.
I would appreciate it if you would tell me your source for Fernigenan meaning Ferns (the place in the PLU of Gorey).
Regards.
Tomás Uí Boirnéal.

Dennis shared that quote with us in this thread. Scroll up a bit and you will find it.

Jimnuaeabhrac
I understand.
Denis.
Is you source for the translation of Ferns from Fernigenan from this site?;
http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf

Can you find this translation anywhere else except in this publication? I find it most interesting as it does not appear in any other medium.
Tomás Uí Boirnéal.

The name apparently derives from Giraldus:


"
The Topographical Poems of John O'Dubhagain
and Giolla Na Naomh O'Huidhrin

Edited by John O'Donovan 1862
Printed for the Irish Archaeological and Celtic Society
Dublin


"471. Crioch-na-gCenel, also called Fearann na gCenel. Fernegenall was granted by the Earl Richard Strongbow to Maurice de Prendergast. See Harris's Hibernica, p. 41. This territory would appear to have comprised the district around Artramont, and to be included in the barony of Shelmaliere East. It was divided from the town of Wexford by the River Slaney. The exact situation of this territory is pointed out as follows by Giraldus, Topographia Hib., Dist. ii., c. 32, where it is corruptly called Fernigenan: - "De ratis per sanctum Ivorum a Fernigenan expulsis. Est in Lagnenia provincia quaedam quae Fernigenan [Fernigenal] dicitur, quam a Gwesefordia solum Slanensis aqua disterminat. Unde mures maiores qui vulgariter Rati vocantur per imprecationem Sancti Yuori Episcopi (cujus forte libros corroserant) prorsus expulsi, nec ibi postea nasci nec vivere possunt inuecti."

"


I would guess Ferns derives it name from this territory. So it is not unreasonable to equate the two.

I very much appreciate your replies however I have yet to be convinced.
Regards.
Tomás.

quote:

Is you source for the translation of Ferns from Fernigenan from this site?;
http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/topography_ireland.pdf

Yes. Fuair mé ansin é: II.XXXII, p. 53.

Thank you Denis.
In the interest of accuracy my question is;
Is this the actual translation of the passage or is it the authors/translators impression of where the location is?
i.e
Does it actually say in the original untranslated mss that Fernigenan means the parish or location of the townland of Ferns? Did the original writer of the mss include Ferns in brackets or did the translator take it upon himself to assume that it is the location of Ferns.
Tomás.

(Message edited by enfield on August 12, 2006)

quote:

Is this the actual translation of the passage or is it the authors/translators impression of where the location is?

Apparently the latter, Tom. The original Latin is in the passage quoted by Jim, above: § 471: "... a Fernigenan expulsis... quae Fernigenan dicitur". The explanation that Fernigenan = Fernigenal = Ferann na gCenél (The Territory of the Tribes) seems convincing.

Fearns (the king and archbishops seat) is given differently in Foras Feasa:

From the index of Pádraig de Barra's edition:

Fearna Mhór Maodhóg: mainistir "Ferns" Co Loch Garman, a bhunaigh Naomh Maodhóg (+625/6).

It seems there are two different places.

Particularly as the description "separated only by the slaney" does not fit Ferns: see here:-

http://www.wexfordweb.com/county_map.htm

I think you are right.