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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Archive through August 16, 2006 » Learn Irish by Micheal O'Siadheal « Previous Next »

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 11:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Has anyone used this book, and is it any good?

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 407
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 11:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It has been used (and is being used) by countless participants on this site.

It is considered by many (me included) to be the most comprehensive self teaching resource available. However, do not confuse comprehensive with easy...Irish is not exactly and easy language and LI is a bit short on explanations and such.

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 819
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Highly recommended, but possibly not as an introduction to the language.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 65
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I know there are a few people who will likely disagree with me, but I think "Learning Irish" is one of the most boring, soul-destroying books I have ever seen.

A few years ago, a friend of mine bought a copy and we began diligently studying from it. As James stated, it was indeed very comprehensive but, for us, very boring and clearly not written for beginners. Two weeks later we couldn't stand it anymore and began looking for something better. Unless you have a specific interest in that particular dialect, I would not recommend it - especially if you are a beginner.

There are lots of fun and interesting Irish courses out there. As Cionaodh mentioned on another thread, "Buntus Cainte" and "Progress In Irish" are good choices if you want to learn Standard Irish. There are also plenty of books, CDs, and online courses that will help you learn any of the three major dialects.

Of course, there are many people on this forum who use (and actually like!) "Learning Irish". It was not the right book for me, but some people swear by it.

Just putting in my two cents ...

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 07:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, I got it because it does NOT teach Standard Irish. I have a friend in Ireland who is a native Donegal speaker that I can use to practice with, but she can't teach me so easily. I wanted to learn a dialect I can use with her easily, granted that this book doesn't teach the donegal dialect.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 326
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 08:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aontaím le Wee Falorie Man. Learning Irish, by the author's own admission, was not designed as a course for beginners, but is rather for those who already have a sound footing in the standard and are simply wishing to learn Cois Fhairrge Irish.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it soul-destroying, but it's better suited to a college classroom setting where one will also find a qualified professor to fill in the many gaps left in this book's presentation.

I don't know if there's a subliminal message for us when we learn that the author has now abandoned linguistic pursuits like this book and others and now writes love poems
. . . in English.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Asarlaí
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Username: Asarlaí

Post Number: 136
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 09:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I also agree with WFM. Learning Irish is an awful course, I get physically ill just looking at it. The recent version of Teach yourself Irish is a great way to start -

http://www.teachyourself.co.uk/lirish.htm

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 327
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 09:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on the latest incarnation of TYI, a Asarlaí. I actually dislike that one more than LI, but for different reasons.

For me, the Ó Sé & Shiels version of TYI is haphazardly structured; bits & pieces of the same topic or grammar detail are scattered all over the book in random places. I'm unimpressed by the recordings; the speakers sound stilted or unnatural, probably because they're reading phrases from a script which they wouldn't otherwise use. And this book lacks a structure which would make it conducive to group study -- yes, I know it says "Teach Yourself", but most of us prefer to study with others.

I own two copies of it (one with tapes & one with CDs), but only because I get so many questions about it from the poor souls who bought it. I really have to hold my nose & suppress my bile whenever I open a copy of it.

But, as always, to each their own. If TYI is working for you, Asarlaí, I wish you the best with it.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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maxp (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 09:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So, if I have a native friend who can help me with holes in the lessons, then I should be fine with LI you think?

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 408
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aontaim leat, A Chionaodh. I find the Ó Sé & Shiels version of TYI to be horribly organized. I also agree that the LI book is not for the academically meek. You do have to do alot of reading of small print, asking of questions (this site has been superb for that) and of course, practice, practice and more practice.

I also couldn't agree more with the statement about Buntús Cainte. It is a great book that makes learning more fun than frustrating. However, you won't learn one iota's worth of grammar from that book. You might stumble across a rule or two of your own accord but the book itself teaches nothing more than rote memorization. Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful learning tool. I still use it from time to time. However, as a means of truly learning, and I mean really learning in an academic sense, Buntús is not the direction I would go. For that degree of learning, and for those willing to hunker down and do the work, LI is a superb tool.

(Message edited by james on August 03, 2006)

(Message edited by james on August 03, 2006)

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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maxp (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, I feel better about my purchase of LI, which I bought last night on Amazon, with the audio of course. I'll just be asking a lot of stupid questions, and bugging my friend a lot. I really want to learn a few things (other than how to say hello, and "I want a beer" which I already know.. :wink:) so I can impress her and possibly learn some more while I am in Ireland in November. Don't worry, I won't go into any Gaeltacht pubs and make an ass of myself in front of the locals...

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Paul (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,

Slán a bhéas sibh.

A little off-topic here, but re Teach Yourself Irish, I wonder if the problem is the Teach Yourself series itself. I bought the Teach Yourself Welsh book/tape a little while back, and found it had the same scattershot jumping-bean feel as Teach Yourself Irish. And the dialogues have no translations following them. I was very disappointed...
Certainly this won't put me off learning Welsh, but it's yet another lesson to me about inadequate books for beginners.

On the other hand, I picked up Colloquial Scottish Gaelic (book/CD) and was pleasantly surprised. Dialogues recorded by native speakers, and lessons that seem to proceed in a linear fashion.

Le meas, Paul

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 328
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh maxp:
So, if I have a native friend who can help me with holes in the lessons, then I should be fine with LI you think?

You'll be rather weak in conversation skills, but with the help of a knowledgeable friend you'll probably learn a lot. Also consider joining the CoisFhairrge Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coisfhairrge -- they're using Learning Irish as their textbook.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 329
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Paul:
A little off-topic here, but re Teach Yourself Irish, I wonder if the problem is the Teach Yourself series itself.

snip

On the other hand, I picked up Colloquial Scottish Gaelic (book/CD) and was pleasantly surprised. Dialogues recorded by native speakers, and lessons that seem to proceed in a linear fashion.


Among the several I have seen, the TY series seems to all be of one ilk. I wouldn't recommend them to an enemy.

I'm pleased to hear your report about the Scottish entry in the Colloquial series (by Routledge, I think?). I heard a while back that an Irish version is in the works. I look forward to seeing it.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Aaron
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Username: Aaron

Post Number: 83
Registered: 04-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Colloquial books by Routledge are superb. If they do as well with the Irish version as they've done with the others, and I imagine they will, it might become one of the best books available.

Does anyone know when the Irish version will be out?

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Odwyer
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Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 165
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I, too, started out with TY. I got past the first few chapters, then found the scattered lessons confusing and nonsensical. I looked for another course, or a teacher, and during my search I found Daltaí. I began a similar thread and bought LI. I am now on chapter eight and going strong!

Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

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Thetechdude1997
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Username: Thetechdude1997

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, you mentioned you have a friend from Donegal who you can speak Irish with? If you don't like the idea of learning standard Irish, why not learn Ulster Irish since your friend from Donegal speaks that dialect? For this, you can use the 2 - Tús Maith books (volume 3 will be released in the fall) or Irish On Your Own. These feature the Ulster dialect (although there are still some
instances of standard Irish in those books). Irish On Youw Own can be purchased through a place like Amazon.com,
but for Tús Maith, you may have to order it from Ireland (www.litriocht.com). There is an Ulster Irish group, which is working it's way through Tús Maith at the moment.

I have to agree that Learning Irish is probably the most comprehensive course out there, but the explanations at times aren't too clear, not a great book for a beginner.

Also, I think the the most fun courses to work through are the above 2 I mentioned. Although I prefer Tús Maith
myself. There is a bit more grammar in it, a conversation
in each lesson, a song to learn in every other lesson. Plus when the 3rd and final book in the series is released
it will be a pretty comprehensive course (although it costs about 30 euros per book, so obviously more than Learning Irish if you were to purchase more than 1). As per standard Irish, I actually agree with above comments that Progress In Irish & Buntús Cainte make a fantastic combination. Best of luck!

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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 03:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thetechdude1997- I can probably cancel my LI order, but I have a couple questions. Do you know if Irish On Youw Own comes with audio?

Also, does anyone think I would have a hard time speaking to my friend if I went with munster irish instead of Ulster Irish?

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am only a beginner, but it is my understanding that all dialects of Irish are mutually intelligible.

Munster dialect is my personal favourite but I'm sure your friend would be very happy if you were learning Ulster Irish. "Irish on Your Own" comes with cassettes and "Tús Maith" comes with CDs. You can save a little money on postage if you buy "Tús Maith" from Irish Books and Media (I think they are in Massachusetts).

Adh mór, a chara!

p.s. Gaeltalk is a great online course if you decide to go with Munster Irish, after all. Talking with an actual native speaker does wonders.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 68
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

oops!
I forgot to log in - The last post was from me (the Wee Falorie Man).

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maxp (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, Irish on your own is $158 at amazon, so I think i'll pass. I guess ill just see what Learn Irish does for me.

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Thetechdude1997
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Username: Thetechdude1997

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, the book for Irish On Your Own can be purchased separately or with the 5 cassette tapes (about 90 minutes each) and features some role playing exercises which are quite nice. It's a good introductory course, but you may want to supplement it with First Steps In Irish. This is similar to Progress In Irish. Although it is in standard Irish like Progress, First Steps In Irish features Uslter vocabulary and there are free recordings available online featuring a fluent speaker of the Ulster dialect (although not a native speaker i believe, but a linguist with a very good pronouciation/accent). There is also an answer key available for it online as well. This is a very innexpensive little book - around $10. Irish On Your Own may be around $40 I'm guessing. Irish On Your Own, goes by the name "Now You're Talking" in the UK - exact same book/course just a different name for North America. They made 30 television episodes for it as well.

In answer to your second question; I don't think I would go with Munster Irish in your case. I would rather standard Irish or even Connaught Irish. The only book out there for real Munster Irish is the original Teach Yourself Irish book by Myles Dillon from 1961. It's not the same as the new Teach Yourself Irish book - the new one is in Standard Irish. The new one, although good as a grammar book, I think is an awful course. Munster Irish
has different verb endings which I think would be more confusing. I actually took a course online "www.gaeltalk.net". It is based in Munster. You do weekly 1 hour one to one sessions with a tutor there using Skype. The material (lessons) on their website is in standard Irish, but of course they are speaking Munster Irish. I found that confusing at first. They were using words/phrases during the live sessions that isn't what you were learing from their website. It wasn't until I got that old Teach Yourself Irish book that I was able to learn a bit of West Munster Irish and understand the tutor more easily.

I'll give you a little example. To say "I will be", " you will be", ect. in Standard/Connaught/Ulster Irish, it is:

Beidh mé (pron. Bay-may)
Beidh tú (you will be - singular)
Beidh sé/sí (he/she will be)
Beidmíd (standard irish) / Beidh muid (we will be)
Beidh sibh (you will be - plural)
Beidh siad (they will be)

in Munster Irish it is:

Bead (pron. bed) ( I will be)
beir (you will be - singular)
beidh sé (pron. beh shay)
beimíd
beidh sibh
beid or beid siad

I'm still a beginner really, so maybe others may disagree with me or have better opinions than myself - or correct my mistakes. This is just based on what I've encountered so far. There are other people in this forum who are fluent speakers and teachers, such as Cionaodh. There are many others as well.

I'm just glad to try and pass on what little information i've gained so far if I can. I wish you all the very best with the Irish. Take care.

Slán go fóill a chara,

Traolach de Brún ( Terry Brown )

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 330
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Do you know if Irish On Youw Own comes with audio?

Audio cassettes. It was never released with CDs, probably won't be. And that course *may* be out of print now, I haven't seen it in stores for a few years. It's not bad, though if you can get a copy. But Tús Maith is a bit better, and has CDs.

Also, does anyone think I would have a hard time speaking to my friend if I went with munster irish instead of Ulster Irish?

In general, there's a bigger grammar/vocab/pronunciation distinction between Munster & Ulster Irish than with Ulster & Connacht Irish. (Though not always!)

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 331
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A maxp,

Irish on Your Own retailed for US$50 when it was new and in the bookshops. Don't ever pay more than that, it's not worth it.

I've seen them go for $30ish on eBay in recent years, you may like to watch for one there. They show up a few times a year.

Be careful of the Now You're Talking version, it has fewer cassettes than the North American Irish on Your Own version -- there's a note inside about where you could send for the missing tapes -- for a price, of course. A bit sneaky, I suppose, but the rationale was probably "Well, let's keep the upfont cost low, and if they're serious enough they'll come to us for the missing tapes".

Caveat emptor.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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maxp (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 04:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Irish On Your Own, goes by the name "Now You're Talking" in the UK - exact same book/course just a different name for North America. They made 30 television episodes for it as well. "

This is the book my friend actually told me to buy, but I could never find it because I didn't know it was not sold in the US under that name, therefore I resorted to buying something else. Now, I'm definetly going to look for it. Thanks.

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William
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Username: William

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 03:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So to sum up some of the observations here: a comprehensive, user-friendly, beginning text in Modern Irish in English still does not exist.

But perhaps this lacuna wiill be filled with the publication of the last volume of the "Tús Maith" series? I have only glanced at "Tús Maith", so it's difficult for me to judge its credentials.

I have tangled with both the "comprehensive" texts in existence--Ó Siadhail of the English love poetry and Dillon of the Germanic historical linguistics, and I must say that they are both very annoying on many levels.

The situation with Welsh is better--an example being the series of books published on Welsh from Routledge by Gareth King.

I think that even Scottish Gaelic is better served in this department by Ronald Black's "Cothrom Ionnsachaidh"--considered by some to be daunting, but it's saved by its considerable sense of humour.

Does anyone have any idea why this situation has occured? Is it related to the offical status of Irish in Ireland?

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Nicole
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Username: Nicole

Post Number: 52
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Terry mentioned First Steps in Irish having answer keys and recordings. I think it's been a while since we put in the plug for their location:

http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

(This location doesn't always show up in google searches, so it's good to bookmark it if you think you'll need it now or in the future.)

Nicole Apostola
http://cuisle.blogspot.com

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Jimnuaeabhrac
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Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 57
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 01:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is interesting that the support for "Learning Irish" seemed to be a lot stronger on this site in years past. To each his own, of course.

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Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 02:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hmm! We have been using Tús Maith in an online Yahoo! group called ulsteririshstudy, which is run by Lughaidh who is on here. It does not teach "Ulster Irish" with a few departures towards the standard, but rather the other way round: standard Irish with the very occasional Ulster word thrown in. It is funny to hear the tapes and see how the speakers sometimes revolt and refuse to pronounce the words as they are written in this text. No speaker says "di", for example, they all say "daoithe"!

There is a bit of grammar in this book - but Lughaidh has explained that the explanation of grammar in this book is occasionally completely wrong. I think you should read this textbook alongside Lughaidh's explanations in order that you learn Ulster Irish (as Lughaidh always points out the Ulster versions of the forms in the book) and do not learn incorrect grammar. 2 of the speakers on this book are native speakers! That's good. 2 aren't - and they have heavy Belfast accents. So you can either think that is a good thing - as it shows how Belfast people are reclaiming the language - or not - as it is no help to learners to hear incorrectly pronounced Irish!!

The course is best in terms of vocabulary: ie once the third volume is produced, the whole set will have a vocab of more than 3000 words, although fewer than half of the words introduced are actually in the vocab lists (and the others will not be found in the vocab at the back of the book either). In other words, it is a generally poorly produced textbook. But the texts are good, and sometimes even funny. If they were translated into Ulster Irish, and incorrect grammatical explanations were eliminated, it could be a really great text.



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