I finally figured out why I couldn't find any responses to my question above that was posted on a previous thread - the thread got closed! But at least I found it in the archives and would like to thank those who responded.

My original question was what reaction would be expected from someone speaking Caighdeán Ofigiúil (Standard Irish) in an Irish pub in the Gaeltacht? There were a few responses, but I thought I would restart the subject in case there were others interested in providing input to this subject.

The best advice, which I shall always remember was Cionadh's: "If the pub isn't too crowded, buy everyone a round. You'll find it's a quick ice-breaker." Conas dearfa "a round for everyone!" as Gaeilge?

My only experience speaking Irish in an Irish pub was just outside of Slieve League (cliffs located in Donegal - a must see if you ever travel to Oideas Gael or that area), and I was just capable of engaging in a few exchanges with the bartender. It was exhilarating - the conversation that is.

But I suppose my real question is how do native speakers of Irish in the Gaeltachts view Standard Irish when it's used in conversations with them?

Sure and I don't remember that thread, a Mhic Leinn a chara. I look at every thread so I don't know how I missed it unless it was only up for a couple of days last week, I was gone for most of it and didn't get completely caught up here until Sun. night.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think some people concern themselves too much about "An Caighdeán Oifigiúil". Since it doesn't extend at all to pronunciation that will not be a difficulty. "An Caighdeán Oifigiúil" simply emphasises the regularities of the language and advises on the most widely understood structures and phrases. It doesn't even prescribe vocabulary although some of the smaller isolated dialects that have unusual words and structures unique to their own areas may not be widely represented in school texts which is where we all learnt our Irish.

A far greater problem for you is that it is no longer "cool" in much of the Gaeltacht to speak Irish in public and even less so if there are strangers present. OK. A group of "suits" coming in to a hotel will be heard speaking Irish. An old 80 year old man under the influence may be heard trying to speak Irish. But English is the language of success and progress and socialising in public for the younger generations. Unfortunately Donegal people think their dialect is difficult.

Yes, but Taidhgín, the solution was mentioned by jONAS a long time ago - just say you are Icelandic and don't speak English. They'll have to speak to you in Irish then, or not at all.

Just a brief continuation of my last message: Donegal people themslves imagine that no one would understand them and so wouldn't dream of speaking Irish to a stranger.

The best way to hear Gaeltacht Irish spoken is get to know people first -- choose your accommodation carefully and get to know the people of the house you are staying in. Once they know you -- know you have Irish -- and know you want to hear Irish -- they'll be delighted to help.

Imagine if strangers came up to you in the pub or where-ever and wanted to make conversation with you in your language just to hear you speak. You might not be pleased. Once people know you are genuine they will speak Irish to you. (Standard Irish is not an issue with anyone except writers, translators, and dialect scholars. Oh. And teachers -- they should teach the local dialect first for speech -- when writing comes along write the Caighdeán. But that's only my view. Ni lia duine ná tuairim (People are no more numerous than opinions.)

Thanks for that, Karhu. I remember Jonas from some of the other lists and he knows the situation in the various Gaeltachtaí as well or better than I.

Pretending to know no other language than Irish is certainly a way of getting a response in Irish provided the person you are speaking to needs to speak to you. An Caighdeán Oifigiúil however is not likely to get in the way of your understanding or making yourself understood.

With over 500,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe working in Ireland now the language situation has changed completely. There are Brazilians cutting turf, Lithuanians picking mushrooms, and Czechs laying floors. Irish-speakers are well used to non-English speakers now. They would be delighted to hear Irish spoken by the incomers. "Yu Ming is ainm dom" celebrates just such a situation: a foreigner who knew Irish but not English.

waa waaa waaaaaaaaaaaa ?????????? 500000??????? wat???? thats impossible? where are those figures! or where did you get them from.. if thats true thats scary. acn you give me the link from where you got that from

www.cso.ie -- The Central Statistics Office -- will bring you to the most recent Census returns. The population has increased dramatically. Perhaps not all of my unscientific half-million are foreign since the young Irish are not emigrating now but if you were to stand in O'Connell Street and listen. You will hear every language but one ... Russian, Polish (70,000 at least of them), Lithuanians, and so on. The hospitality industry has long been the preserve of East Europeans. They are working in shops and factories. Everywhere. Our roads are being built by GAMA, a Turkish company. The last five to ten years has brought a huge influx and the economy is buoyant as a result. They are excellent workers. They work hard and fast for very little. Ní hí an Éire seo an Éire a bhíodh anallód ann. Ach is leor sin -- níl baint aige le ceist na gcanúintí agus an Chaighdeáin.

Seo an tagairt deireanach a dhéanfaidh mé don ábhar seo / This is my last reference to this topic:
This site gives details:
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006640.shtml

quote:

Ní lia duine ná tuairim (People are no more numerous than opinions.)

And as they once said, Nít lia Lagin rúni. http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/112

Go raibh maith agat as an méid a dúirt tú thuas faoin gCaighdeán agus faoin nGaeltacht. Tá mé ar aon tuairim leat!

Theres abou 120000 polish in ireland. and there the biggest group, theres no way theres half a million. cant be thats one in 10 people. You cant use o'connell street as a good example because the surrounding area is where alot of the polish, czech, latvians live. A better guide would be in a suburb or other streets not so close to the eastern european district in and around parnell street.

Shíl mé go raibh Sráid Pharnell sa cheantar Nígéarach!!

If you're living in Dublin, and a Polish person asks you for directions, do you think you're going to ponder over his use of American vocabulary?

Nígéarach?? cad é sin? sounds a bit rracist to me :-)

Fear_na_mbróg, what do you mean? i think you may have understood me.

I tried to form an analogy. Here's the scenario which was initially presented:

Someone from Dublin comes to a Gaeltacht, and conversates with the natives using the Irish they learned at school.

It was asked if the natives think, "Oh he's speaking Caighdeán".

Well here's a scenario which the English speakers here can relate to:

If you're living in Dublin, and a Polish person asks you for directions, do you think you're going to ponder over his use of American vocabulary?

The answer is no, and you're more likely to be impressed at his or her remarkable grasp of English.

Nigéarach = duine ón Nigéir.

http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/pobail.htm

http://www.acmhainn.ie/tearmai/tiortha.htm

Cad tá ciníoch faoi sin?

Mar eolas dhuit: duine le craiceann "dubh" = duine gorm i nGaeilge.

quote:

They work hard and fast for very little.

That's good to hear....Are you in a job yourself? There will be someone in the world willing to do your job for a fraction of your salary...

The CSO have not finished compiling their information, only snippets are available, but as UTV said (see http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=75280&pt=n):

quote:

WEDNESDAY 19/07/2006 09:19:28
Foreign nationals are 10% of RoI population

Census data being released later is expected to show that foreign nationals make up 10% of the Republic's population.

The information was compiled on April 23, from about 1.5 million homes.

It is expected to show that the Republic`s population is well over four million, the highest in 135 years.

The CSO has published its preliminary report only, which says:

quote:

The number of non-Irish nationals enumerated as part of the 2002 census was 222,000, representing
5.8 per cent of the usually resident population. While the corresponding figure for 2006 will have to
await the publication of the Principal Demographic Results in April 2007, it can be tentatively estimated
from the derived flow data on migration that the stock of non-Irish nationals is likely to be about 400,000.

Earlier on in the preliminary report it says:

quote:

The preliminary total for the population enumerated on census night 23 April 2006
was 4,234,925 persons, compared with 3,917,203 persons in April 2002,
representing an increase of 317,722 persons or 8.1 per cent in four years.

This change is not over a 10 year period, it is over a 4 year period. Why is Ireland holding a census after only 4 years?

"Nígéarach?? cad é sin?"
Duine ón Nígéar

"sounds a bit rracist to me :-)"

Ar do chluasa atá sé :-)

quote:

Why is Ireland holding a census after only 4 years?

Because we do (nominally every four years, 1996, 2002, 2006 - the gap was due to the foot and mouth disease crsis in 2000)!

Scríobh Fear na mBróg:

quote:

Someone from Dublin comes to a Gaeltacht, and conversates with the natives using the Irish they learned at school.

I'm curious about the word "conversates." We usually say "converses" on this side of the pond (USA). Is "conversates" an intellectual form of "converses" or the form of "converses" normally found in Ireland and/or England? Just curious.

Thanks everyone for the input so far. And I'll be especially careful and concerned not to be overly concerned with C.O. - I promise.


Caighdeán Ofigiúil Abú!!!

No, it is not a form normally found anywhere.

Fear na mBróg explained in another thread that he uses these words because he is an intellectual and a pedant with a much better grasp of English than his peers at school! :-) ;-)

it is infact an error, its a back-formation based on the noun conversation, whereas converse is correct. ahh but wats de difernce ders nuff slang on dis.. :-)

A Mhac Léin na Gaeilge, scríobh tú

quote:

Caighdeán Ofigiúil Abú!!!

Do you mean "An Official Standard", as in "some official standard", or "The Official Standard"? Ní mór duit an t-alt a úsáid más é an dara leagan atá ar intinn agat: "An Caighdeán Oifigiúil Abú!"

I'd like to offer a few thoughts in response to 'if thats true thats scary.' re statistics of the number of foreigners in Ireland.
Is cuma liomsa cé as daoine nó cén teanga atá acu ó dhúchas. Is 'foreigner' mise agus mé i dtír eile agus buíochas le Dia, ní bhíonn daoine scanraithe nuair a fheiceann siad mé. Ní gá dúinn bheith scanraithe nuair a fheicimid daoine ó tíortha eile.
An Éireannach mise? Níl dabht faoi sin. Ach fan, an bhfuil? Bhuel, bhí na Normanaigh i Muileann Cearr agus is dócha go raibh ionsaí nó dhó ar ár gcuid den tír agus nach raibh Turgesius (Viking leader) é féin ag snámh (ar bhealach) ins an loch céanna ina raibh mé fhéin ag snámh agus níl dabht ar bith agam go raibh na Normanaigh agus 'foreigners' eile cairdiúil le muintir na háite.
Tá contúirt i bheith ag caint faoi 'iadsan' agus 'muidne.' Níl mórán difríocht eadrainn.
Taitníonn daoine atá cairdiúil liom, is cuma cé as iad, agus cuireann daoine atá drochbhéasach isteach orm, daoine a bhíonn ag caitheamh anuas ar dhaoine eile, is cuma cé as iad. Tá daoine a dhéanann maith agus daoine a dhéanann dochar i ngach tír ar an domhan. No one has a monopoly on that.
It's a feature of Daltaí na Gaeilge that we have so many 'foreigners' learning Irish but what a 'foreigner' is depends on your point of view. I think of all who are learning and helping each other in a positive way here as friends.
Just some thoughts a chairde,
Maith agaibh,

Re. the original question on the thread, What reaction would be expected from someone speaking Caighdeán Ofigiúil (Standard Irish) in an Irish pub in the Gaeltacht?
For me there was no problem ever. I got natural conversation in response.

Dennis,
A quick word of thanks. On another thread recently you included me in a list of people who were helpful here. I was very honored to be in the company of the other names on that list and I'm not sure I deserved such an honor. But I just want to say, Go raibh maith agat, ó chroí.
There are many others who could be on that list of course. I miss the female company on the board. Riona and Lucy are great. I'd love to hear from Julia and Nicola and Shoshana again. They were all positive forces here.
Thanks for all you do here to help people,

quote:

For me there was no problem ever. I got natural conversation in response.

Thanks Caitriona for such a straight-forward response. I also appreciate your previous response to this question on a previous thread. And YES, you should be included on any list of helpful people since I've always enjoyed and benefitted from the knowledge you share with us as it relates to the Irish language.

A Dennis, tá ceart agat (nó tá tú ceart?). I meant to say "long live THE Official Standard," but "some Official Standard" has a nice ring to it also. If I'm gonna have a motto, it might as well be correct. .

An Caighdeán Ofigiúil Abú! (How's that, better?)

quote:

I'm not sure I deserved such an honor.

You are entirely too modest! Is iontach an Ghaeilge atá agat, agus is léir go bhfuil grá ollmhór don teanga agat.

Your polite demurral and my insistence reminds me of the "Irish Tea Ceremony":

- You'll have some tea.
- No, no, I'm just on my way out.
- You will, you will!
etc.

quote:

I miss the female company on the board.

Liz Gabay, a bhfuil scoth na Gaeilge aici, sometime writes on in the "Comhrá Oscailte as Gaeilge" section. I know that she has been very busy of late with her fiddle, with moderating a reading of "Fingal Rónáin" on Old-Irish-L, and with adding a ton of new installments to a data-base of Old Irish verb forms that a number of us are working on... as well as practicing medicine. Ba bhreá liom níos mó a chloisteáil uaithi anseo.

A Mh L na G,

quote:

tá ceart agat (nó tá tú ceart?).

One more article insertion here, and you're home free:

Tá an ceart agat.

quote:

An Caighdeán Ofigiúil Abú! (How's that, better?)

Yes, but we stilll need to fine-tune the spelling for you:

An Caighdeán Oifigiúil Abú!

Oh duh, I shoulda remembered the long-with-long and short-with-short thing! If I can ask a question out of complete ignorance (which is usual for me) do I need to use an article for a proper noun? For example if I want to say "Long live Maire" it would be "Maire Abú," correct? So, by capitalizing Caighdeán Oifigiúil" am I not using a proper noun? I don't mean to come across as sneaking out of using the article in this instance, but would appreciate any clarification on the definite article as it relates to proper nouns.

Go raibh maith agat!


An Caighdeán Oifigiúil Abú!

Thanks lads.
OK. I’m just back from soaking my head in cold water to stop it from getting too big. I’m sure I’ll get pulled down to size some time soon in case I start believing it too much.

Ceart ‘at, Dennis, about the less formal Irish Tea Ceremony.

Although we don’t have it down as fine an art as the Japanese, we engage in similar behavior, especially in the country I think:
You’ll have a cuppa?
No, thanks all the same.
Sure I was goin’ to have one myself.
Work away them. I’m grand though.
It’s no bother. The kettle’s just boiling.
etc.
☺
Too true!

Certain aspects of Japanese culture were easier for me to relate to than for Americans who visited our area. It reminded me of the culture of Ireland in many aspects. The no boasting one was easier for me to understand. What’s seen as pride and positive in America is sometimes seen as arrogance in other countries and that may make the cultural element of language learning a minefield for some students. They may offend inadvertently. I committed many faux pas in the course of my studies.
It's part of the learning process.
Clever though, that Irish Tea Cermony ☺

To Mac Léinn na Gaeilge,
The YES was lovely, go raibh míle maith agat. I’ve allowed myself to enjoy it for a while before bringing myself back to the ground.
I may be worrying about nothing but I’m going to toss and turn at night wondering about the ‘as it relates to the Irish language’ part at the end. I always want to do what’s right. I want to make sure I understand this so I don’t do something wrong. A thread was closed recently after my last comment and I’m wondering if I was the cause of it.
You asked about talking in a pub above. When I’d talk to the people there in Irish, I wouldn’t be talking about the mechanics of the language. I’d be discussing the news of the area or national news or international news or the football match or who was getting married in the church that day or one of the things that people usually talk about in pubs. It would be in Irish. If we don’t practice the vocabulary we need for such conversations, aren’t we leaving ourselves a little unprepared for real conversation in Irish about topics typically discussed in Ireland? And if we don’t discuss what’s considered OK and not OK according to Irish culture, aren’t we doing students who venture there an injustice in not preparing them?
I hope I haven’t been off base on the ‘as it relates to the Irish language.’ Gabh mo leithscéal if I have. I want to understand this one.
Go raibh maith for my moments of bliss but pride may come before a fall so back to reality for me. I always store good comments away ( my reserve store of positive energy) and recall them if I ever need to.
Míle maith agat,

A Chaitriona, a chara,

My remark above was meant purely as a sign of my appreciation for your excellent efforts in helping us learners in the pursuit of mastering Irish, so I didn't mean to nor would I want to detract from my admiration of your contributions in any way.

You bring up some good points regarding what is appropriate to discuss on this forum. I would leave it to this forum's administrator to help clarify that for us. I think that any clarification or confirmation would go a long way in helping others, like myself, who would like to engage in 'national or international news,' but may feel reluctant to do so because of the perception that this forum is, or may be, dedicated solely to the learning of the Irish language versus the discussion of 'national or international' topics of interest.

I'm happy to be able to learn the Irish language and can understand that this may not be the forum for 'national or international news.' Perhaps you may want to contact this forum's admistrator to get a better idea of whether this forum can accomodate other aspects as you describe above.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your genorisity in sharing your knowledge of the Irish language, and the next time, if ever, I'm in a Gaeltacht pub, I hope you're there when I buy everyone a free round of drinks.

So Mac Leinn a chara,
Was there a thread about this last week that got archived before I could get home to read it, because I hate the idea of missing anything.

A Caitriona, a chara;
You don't know me (yet) as I'm a brand new member that has practically no Irish. I just have to pipe up and say that I've read alot of the threads over the last two weeks and while there seem to be many very knowledgeable people on this forum, you seem to always be a voice of kind reason. (Lucy too.)

Yes, your language skills are great...I know so little that I can't judge anyone's yet...but, you always seem to try and temper those on the site that appear to lose their patience and veer toward sounding arrogant or condescending when expressing their opinions or differing with someone elses. Thanks for making this forum a little less intimidating.

A friend reccommended this site as a place to practise my Irish and frankly, I'm a little chicken after reading many of the threads, but, you'll see me forging ahead as I'm quite determined to learn Irish. Hopefully, everyone won't be bashing their heads on the keyboard by the time I get halfway fluent!

Obviously the learned among us appreciate you and I just wanted to make sure that you knew the members that don't speak up to often do to!!

Slán,
Sarah

Ay Sarah,
I've tears in my eyes now.
OK (gathering myself together - deep breath),
I've enough positive energy stored up now from all the kind words to last me a long, long time.
Bless your heart for those wonderful sentiments.
I'm thrilled to see more women on board. Céad míle fáilte romhat, Sarah (Eiregirl). That's a hundred thousand welcomes to you. And you deserve that and more for that post.
I can't write now 'cos you've overwhelmed me.

Back again.
I hope you're with us a long time, Sarah, and that we learn lots from each other. I know some posts are intimidating but those people who are kind here, and there are many, are very kind and helpful.
Don't be afraid of using your Irish here. We'll help if you need us. We make mistakes too and all learners do. A sense of humor helps.
Go néirí an t-ádh leat. Good luck,
Thank you for joining us,
Dia leat,
Buíochas ó chroí,

A Riona, a chara,

Yes, it was the thread called "Learning Irish in the Gaeltacht" and is in the latest archived section.

Slán,

Mac Léinn