Dia dhuit!

I have just started studying my copy of Learning Irish and I have this question to ask.

When talking about the verb Tá, in the case of the noun describing an event e.g. timpiste, an adverb of time is sufficient. Can some one explain that to me please and give me an example?

Go raibh maith 'ad
Abeer

Amethyst, you can get a lot of help from the Yahoo group studying Learning Irish at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coisfhairrge/

The answer is that a word like "yesterday" or "today" would suffice to round off the sentence. The past of tá is bhí, so something like: bhí an timpiste inné, there was an accident yesterday. You don't need to add "ann" (which literally means "in it").

That's a good explanation, Karhu. (Is maith an míniú é sin.) I'd like to correct a small oversight, however, to avoid any confusion:

quote:

bhí an timpiste inné, there was an accident yesterday

For the Irish to fit that English translation, you'll drop the article:

Bhí timpiste inné. = There was an accident yesterday.

A lot of people would also say:

Bhí timpiste ann inné.

See, for example, these simple sentences (which you can listen to):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/colinandcumberland/littleblackbook/wordbank 2/rantfmob.shtml

Yes, you are right. You got me.

Another good example of "ann" is on p54 of said tome:

"i dtosach tá an bhunscoil ann, ansin tá an mheánscoil ann, agus ansin tá an ollscoil ann..tá scoileanna Caitliceacha agus scoileanna Pratastúnacha ann. Go deimhin uaireanta bíonn scoil Ghiúdach ann freisin."

These are good examples, because the ann does not appear in the English:

"first, there is the primary school, then there is the middle school and then there is the university... there are Catholic schools and Protestant schools. Sometimes there is even a Jewish school as well."

But that seems to contradict your original answer to Amethyst!

Could you quote the Learning Irish passage in full, please?

Bheadh "ann" i gconaí ann agamsa i gcás mar seo. Ach glacaim leis go raibh ciall airithe leis an méid a scríobh an Siadhalach.

An é go raibh sé ag cuir in iúl nach ionann "ann" agus láthair i gconaí - mar shampla - bhí cóisir ann inné - there was a party yesterday - níl eolas ar bith san abairt sin faoi cén ait.

(Ach gach seans gurbh in oll-phuball Fhianna Fáil i mBaile Bhriota a bhí....)

quote:

Could you quote the Learning Irish passage in full, please?

Which one?

All it says on p7 - many explanations in this book are brief to the point of being cryptic:

quote:

When a sentence with the verb tá does not contain an adjective, e.g. Tá Cáit sásta 'Cáit is content', or an adverb (adverbial prhase) of place, e.g. Tá Cáit anseo 'Cáit is here', ann is inserted: Tá fear ann 'There is a man (there)' or 'A man exists'. In the case of a noun describing an event, e.g. timpiste 'accident', an adverb of time is sufficient.

That is all the explanation there is, and there are no examples. I am thinking that maybe "bhí timpiste inné", according to what the book says, is sufficient, but even more idiomatic with an "ann" in the middle?

quote:

maybe "bhí timpiste inné", according to what the book says, is sufficient,

That sounds sensible.

(But I would say "tharla timpiste inné"!)

Dúirt Aonghus:

quote:

But I would say "tharla timpiste inné"!

Ditto.

Dúirt Karhu:

quote:

You got me.

Ná bac leis. Ní cluiche "tig" é seo, ná cluiche comórtais eile. Is minic a dhéanann muid uilig botúin, a lán acu de thimpiste, trí easpa aire, ní trí easpa tuisceana.

Go raibh maith agabh.

Karhu you are right the book has a lot of explanations that are a bit cryptic to the beginner. I think I may have a lot of questions. And thank you for the group I am already a member there but they are on Lesson 12 and I am on lesson 3 right now. I do ask questions there but I feel like the answers I get from you, and Aonghus and the rest are more comprehensive. I am looking forward to understanding everything you write Aonghus in Irish, right now I have to look up most words but I am getting there. Oh agus go raibh maith 'ad Aonghus for the Siopa you recomended, I ordered some books from there and I am hoping to get them by tomorrow. They are so friendly and patient.

Amethyst

"But I would say "tharla timpiste inné"!"

What is the difference?

I would join the group, but they move way too slowly for me. A chapter a week?! I try to do a chapter a day!

quote:

"But I would say "tharla timpiste inné"!"

What is the difference?

I would join the group, but they move way too slowly for me. A chapter a week?! I try to do a chapter a day!

If you can master Learning Irish in 36 days, I don't think the Yahoo group has anything to teach you. Maybe you should join to answer our questions.

quote:

But I would say "tharla timpiste inné"

Yes! I am in lesson 12, and tharla is in lesson 19. I am afraid that Learning Irish is so wellplanned than one-third of the way through the book, I can only use the verb tá, some forms of the copula and the imperative of other verbs. The past tense has not been raised, much less the present or future or any other tense! You can see how slow is the communicative progress with a book like Learning Irish. Actually this is because it was designed for people who were already familiar with Standard Irish having gone through the school system; it was not designed as a textbook for beginners at all.

quote:

What is the difference?

I think "tharla timpiste inné" is literally "an accident happened yesterday," where as bhí timpiste inné" is literally "[there] was an accident yesterday." I of course defer to fluent/native speakers on which is correct, but it seems to me to be a matter of personal perference, at least in terms of the English translations.

Re. I try to do a chapter a day!

Way to go, O'Dwyer!
Maith thú.
You're setting a high standard.

Karhu Wrote:

You can see how slow is the communicative progress with a book like Learning Irish. Actually this is because it was designed for people who were already familiar with Standard Irish having gone through the school system; it was not designed as a textbook for beginners at all.
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So what is a good book for beginners then someone who is learning from semi scratch.

Amethyst

Scríobh Amethyst:
So what is a good book for beginners then someone who is learning from semi scratch.


If you don't mind using the C.O. for a while, the tried & true combo for beginners is Buntús Cainte along with Progress in Irish. The former focuses on conversation & spoken Irish, the latter gives a good basic overview of grammar.

Well, I started on TY, got pretty far, then switched to LI. I am not new to the language, but I don't think I know all basics. LI is working out quite well, not half as confusing as TY. In TY, the was almost no sentence structure offered at all! I would have to say that only a very bare minimum is required for LI. Of course, I'm only on chapter 7 of 36, so I might be forced to change my opinion soon.

And of course I won't finish in 36 days, I said I would try, not that I would suceed.

There's a syntactic difference between Bhí timpiste inné and Tharla timpiste inné. After ordinary verbs such as 'tharlaigh' you actually don't have to use the word 'ann' or any other adverb at all - Tarlaíonn timpistí (accidents happen). On the other hand, after the auxilliary 'bí' there has to be an adverbial (single word or a phrase): Bhí timpiste ann/ansin/i lár an bhaile/... If the adverbial refers to time rather than to place, according to M. Ó Siadhail, the 'ann' is not necessary (bhí timpiste inné). However, according to what I've just read in this thread, people prefer to insert it before time adverbials - Bhí timpiste ann inné.
A Aonghus, an déarfá-sa 'Bhí timpiste ann nuair a tháinig mé anso' nó 'Bhí timpiste nuair a...' Dar liomsa, tá an chéad leagan níos cirte.
Slan.
Daithí

Déarfainn "tharla timpiste" i gconaí!

Ní maith liom ceachtar leagan le bhí, ach braithim go bhfuil gá leis an "ann".

Cuir "coisir" in ait "timpiste", abair, agus bheadh "ann" ann agam.