Just a note: The 2006 question on Irish was amended to include a tick box for speaking Irish only in the educational system.

This means that the census will give a better picture of families who speak irish at home (adult and child stating that they speak Irish daily).

No figures for Irish are available yet, only preliminary figures have been published.

Very good, indeed. I made analysis based on last census figures, and the result was that school children skew the frequency of daily speaking on a certain territory by up to 100%!

That's really a good thing that they're making the census more specific, especially since this added checkbox, as Aonghus said, will make it easier to figure out how many people speak Irish in "real life" and not just at school. I would really like to know the figures when they come out.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

While I am happy to see them getting more specific...I still think that they are not getting the most accurate picture of the language from the Irish census.

While I have not seen the actual question, something tells me that it will not be very helpful in clearing the fog around the accuracy of the census numbers.

One of the major issues that Irish supporters have, is that there is a serious decline in the number of fluent speakers and people with a good knowledge of the language. The other side holds to the issue that the numbers are actually increasing because each year the number of students graduating from secondary education possessing a fundamental knowledge of Irish is growing. And where are they getting the ammunition for their thinking?? The Irish census.

I agree 100% that students are causing major confusion in the numbers. The current questions are phrased in such a way that a student can answer honestly...and still not give an honest answer because they are in a unique position where their answers are giving a positive image of exposure and usage of the language when in fact they are not.

And from the description of the question above...I think the side that says the numbers are growing will find that they now have a concrete grounding for their statements...why? Because they are going to start getting numbers saying that "X number of students are now using Irish in the academic setting." And since they are taught it in school they must know it.

I still say...unless they get very specific as to exactly where Irish is being spoken, by whom, and how often...they will never get a real accurate picture of the living status of the language...

That is why I started that thread a few months ago.

The census will always be limited because it is self reporting. I would not use it for anything other then a barometer for the level of support for Irish - although I believe an analysis of how many households have an adult and young children speaking Irish outside a school setting would at least give a picture of how many families are being raised through Irish/bi-lingually.


What is also going on now in the official Gaeltachtaí is a university led socio linguistic study. That should give a better picture, for those areas.

Other than interviewing every single person on the island, I don't see how the picture John wants can be obtained.

Another statistic which would interest me is the number of forms filled out in Irish.

What question was there for "Do you speak Irish?" in the Irish version?

Hmm. I've forgotten.

Is dóigh liom gurbh "Cé chomh minic is a labhraíonn tú Gaeilge" an cheist, pé scéal é.

I did not mean to sound negative...if I came of that way I apologize because I was just stating my thoughts. I agree with you that there needs to be more studies carried out, however, the undertaking of such a venture might be too great for the small numbers interested in the information.

That is why I feel the census is the perfect tool for the job. It is something that has to be done on a regular basis by an organization that has the resources to do it. And sadly...in this day and age, no authority is willing to do anything without a certain level of assurance. For instance, no government will act unless they are sure they have the proof to justify their actions...and the majority of their numbers stem from the census.

The problem is that anyone can use the numbers to justify their statement because the numbers are not accurate enought to stand alone. One can look at the census and say that Irish is in danger because according to the census, the number of native and fluent speakers is decreasing each year...while the other side can say that Irish is not in danger because according to the census, 4 to 5 million people have a knowledge of the language and are using it every now and then.

And there is no one here, or anywhere else, that can say this is not happening in Ireland right now...

Also, if anything...the census proves that the Gaeltachts are not going to be a safe haven for Irish like we thought they would be. I will say this again and again until I am blue in the face, "the revival...if not the very survival of the Irish language will depend when there is only one gaeltacht...Ireland herself."

Aonghus,

I almost forgot...I wanted to comment on your statment about "interviewing every single person on the island..."

What do you think a census is for? That is the whole purpose of having censuses...they are an interview by the government to get the information regarding the current state of her people on everday matters. While it is impossible to have "every single person fill out the survey...it is safe to say that over 90% of the people answer them. 90% is not 100% but it paints a very accurate picture.

I just think it is amazing that I can go to your last census and get a definite number on the number of televisions owned by middle income families, however, when I want to know how many Irish people can speak the first official language of their country...I get a number range from 10,000 to 5,000,000.

How is this possible? I will tell you...it is the questions being asked. Like the old saying goes, "The right questions get the right answers."

An interview is alot different to a suvey John. An intereview lets you judge the level of irish each person has, you could use a method resembling leaving cert oral examination (;-)). Where as a survey just asks them do they use irish, you wil never know if the person is telling the truth or knows exactly how good their irish is... and this will then distort the figures.

Aonghus sums it up by saying:
"I would not use it(census) for anything other then a barometer for the level of support for Irish"

True, I will give you that it is impossible to know if people are telling the truth in a survey situation such as a census, however, the more specific the question the more specific the answer. I feel that the loose questions are allowing people to "stretch the truth." And ultimately blur the information.

Let's look at the CSO's 2006 Census Form Question 12:

(If over the age of three.)

1. Can you speak Irish Yes/NO?
2. IF Yes Check all that apply:
A. Daily inside the educational system.
B. Daily outside the educational system.
C. Weekly
D. Less Often
E. Never

I think these are horrible questions because they allow a person to sit there and check yes they speak Irish, and then check they never speak Irish...

Person 1: Excuse me sir, can you speak Irish?
Person 2: Yes I can.
Person 1: Can you tell me what this says?
Person 2: Sorry, I don't know.
Person 1: But you just said you can speak Irish?
Person 2: I had a few years of it in school.
Person 1: Do you ever speak it?
Person 2: No, not really...an odd word here and there.

This is actually part of a conversation I had with a gentlemen in Dublin a few years ago when I did a research project to see the progess of the Irish language in a modern city. I only bring it up because it matches the problem I see with the census. One can not say they speak Irish and not speak Irish, however...it is possible to know Irish and not speak it. But the questions do not allow this option.

Once again, I think that it is important to establish who is speaking Irish, where are they speaking Irish, and to what level of fluency are they speaking Irish.

Which of the following applies to your ability with the Irish language?
A) I can speak, read, and write Irish.
B) I can speak Irish but I can not read or write Irish.
C) I can read and write Irish but I can not speak Irish.
D) I can not speak, read, or write Irish.

From this question you get numbers showing the strengths and weaknesses of the people and the language.

How would you rate your ability with the Irish language?
A) I am a native speaker.
B) I am a fluent speaker.
C) I can hold a simple conversation with Irish.
D) I struggle with simple conversation with Irish.
E) I can not hold a simple conversation with Irish.
F) I have no understanding of Irish.

From this question you get numbers showing how the people see themselves with the Irish language.

In which settings do you use Irish? Mark all that apply.
A) In an academic setting.
B) In an employment setting.
C) In the home.
D) In social settings.
E) I do not use Irish.

From this question you get the numbers showing where the Irish language is being used...but these are just thoughts I have.

I agree with you on that. It really makes me wonder how these people got there jobs, really. Are they given any formal education on statistics/combinatorics or did they read it in a Statistics for Dummmies book, i dont know!..
dar leis an seanfhocal as Baile Átha Cliath:
"Now thats f***in irish isn't it!" :-)

(Message edited by niallmac on July 31, 2006)

:o)

It is funny that you say that. In my statistics courses in college, we were always being given assignments to put together surveys to be given to the local population for the purpose of creating statistical presentations...and we were corrected rather strictly for allowing the possibility of counter information schemes like the one present in the Irish census...I think it is safe to say they wouldn't have passed our courses.

I do not know what is worse, the fact that someone presented these questions as good questions, or that it was approved by a committee that thought they were good questions?

I have written to the CSO several times now about this very matter...and each time I get the same polite response: "Thank you for your interest, we appreciate your suggestion and will note it for possible presentation in the next committee meeting for question reform and approval."

What they are politely saying is: "Hey jack***, if we wanted your idea we would have asked for it, however, if I think it will improve my situation, I will forward your suggestion as my own, thanks."

What a world we live in.

I have been hoping to win over enough support to put a formal request in for these changes, however, I have been getting nothing. Even active revivalists refuse to accept that this is worth there time and effort.

I think that if people are ever going to really start tackling the problems facing the Irish language revival...it might help to know where they are.

I just want to help, and I think this is a simple place to start.

John a chara,

Just an idea, might not get you anywhare, but it is something you could maybe do. You could start a petition and put it up online for people to sign, like Eoin's petition you know. You could probably get signatures and maybe you could send it to the census burough. The problem is that if you leave it vague, like the census questions need to be more detailed instead of giving a specific example, then it probably wouldn't go anywhare with those government folk in charge of things of the sort.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Riona,

In most of my dealings with the CSO, I get the feeling that the people who are in charge of the questons really do want to make changes...the problem is the committee mentality.

I can't recall the theory for this but there is actually a term for this...it has been a long time since I was in college...but group ideology is vastly different from individual ideology. If I remember it correctly, it is something like the the "odds for group approval decrease proportionately to the number of individuals in the group."

Which is common sense when you think about it. We all have thoughts and feelings about things, so the more thoughts and feelings there are...the harder it is to agree on something. An idividual is much easier to influence than the group.

The real factors here, are money and politics. For some reason, Irish is a political tool in Ireland and I don't think there is anyone here who can argue that. Irish is one of those political issues that you are either for or against...there is no "fence riding" as we say here in the States. So to play it safe people, do not get involved at all because they do not want to get caught in such a ridiculous fight.

The other factor, and probably the most important factor...is money. I have published many of my writings and I can tell you from my experience that it doesn't matter who is paying...printing comes at a high price. You are charged by the letter not the finished product. For instance, in the case of the census, when it is all said and done with you get a couple of pages of questions, however, how many letters are on those pages? Unless the CSO does its own printing, which I am not sure if they do...I doubt it because most places do not, they have to pay an outside publisher and printing service for their services...

Granted it is only a few cents per letter, at least here in the States, imagine what the cost most be for one census form...now times that by the number of forms sent out for the census! The government is really the only group of people with the funding for such a venture. And they would not do it unless they had to.

I have thought about a petition before, but the truth is...I feel the only way these questions are going to be improved is if there is push on the national level by high Irish political figures. And right now, I do not see a single Irish candidate who is willing to put themselves on the line like that for the Irish language. As I said before, Irish is a strange political issue. It can be a career killer if you get fighting on the wrong side. Not to say there are no Irish supporters because there are, it is just there is a big difference between saying you are for the Irish language...and doing something about it.