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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Archive through July 26, 2006 » Learning Irish in the Gaeltacht « Previous Next »

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Aindréas
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Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 119
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm curious about how students (yourselves included) have learned Irish in respects to visiting or living in the Gaeltacht. I'm asking because of all the stories I read about how hard it is to hear Irish without very actively looking for it, I find it an absolute wonder that anyone can learn to speak Irish to any level of profficiency. How exactly do students utilize the Gaeltacht, as one would utilize Spain for learning Spanish?

I'm interested much in your experiences. Did you live for an extended amount of time in a Gaeltacht area, and what kind of exposure did you get to Irish there and how? Especially when everyone speaks English also, how do you manage to gain skill in the language when you can effortlessly resort to another language if you're struggling or need something? Thank you for sharing!

P.S. Aindréas does not speak Irish, sorry!

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 29
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

When I eventually get to the GT, I imagine doing it this way: enrol myself on a one-month course, ask the school to find me an Irish-speaking family to lodge with for a month. That way the teachers and the landlady will all speak Irish to you. Ask the landlady to take you to a pub where they speak Irish.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3459
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 04:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

From what I've heard, getting a non tourist job, e.g. on a fishing boat, seems to be a good way. Not sure this is still true - a lot of fishing boats seem to be relying on Polish crew at the moment.

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Aindréas
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Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 120
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 04:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus, have you lived in the Gaeltacht, or are you a native speaker?

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Mbm
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Username: Mbm

Post Number: 79
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 05:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus is a native speaker from Dublin who carries his Gaeltacht with him all the time. Anywhere within two metres of him is a Gaeltacht :-)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3460
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 06:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Grma, a Michal. Beidh mé ag tabhairt an Ghaelacht phearsanta úd go Caife Úna anocht.

Aindréas, I've never spent more than a few weeks in an official Gaeltacht.

But I've never had any trouble speaking Irish to the residents when there, either. Usually I'm with my children, and speaking Irish to them, so that helps.

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 30
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 06:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is Aonghus a native speaker? If you're not from the GT, can you be? At best, he could only be a neo-native, even if his parents brought him up speaking Irish as his first language.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 406
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 07:05 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

With all respect a chuid Gaelainn is far from perfect. Bhuel, I hazard a guess that he is not a cainteoir dúchais traditionally defined. Tá brón orm, a Aonghuis.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3463
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 07:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not going to get into a futile argument with a bunch of linguists over the exact definition of "native speaker" since even linguists among themsleves cannot agree.

However, Róman - Michal knows me personally, and is therefore in a different position to judge than you.

Karhu,

Both my father and myself were brought up speaking Irish as our first language.

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Lucy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 07:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Most "native speakers" do not have perfect Irish. They use slang, short cuts, may slur words , etc. They are speaking a living language and not a museum piece.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 407
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 07:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lucy -

I am still able to discern what is slang and what is a bad grammar.

Aonghus -

The fact that Michal belongs to your circle of mutual adoration does not make him a language expert.

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 401
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 08:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman,

By your reasoning a child who was born in the U.S. but was brought up in a Spanish speaking household would not qualify as a "native" speaker. Sorry...can't agree with that logic.

And, for what it's worth I find your response to Aonghus to be condescending and arrogant. You could have conveyed the same thing in a much less offensive manner.

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 09:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Anywhere within two metres of him is a Gaeltacht :-)

Tá greamaitheoir ar fhuinneog mo chairr a deir

GAELTACHT BHEAG AN CARR SEO.

Gaeltacht an duine aonair atá ann de ghnáth, faraor.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 800
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 09:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've taught children who have limited english but fluent spanish, and those who have fluent english/spanish as reflected in the language(s) of their home. They have never been out of the US for more than a vacation. They are native spanish speakers.

Also a pair of sisters who spoke fluent english/creole, but had only been to their mother's village in Haiti for short visits. Again, native speakers both.

If a fluent parent rases a fluent child from birth using a language, what more difference could it make that he/she was born on this side of some imaginary-line-in-the-dirt or that to whether or not he/she is considered a native speaker?

If I speak fluent Klingon and raise my kid so that's all he/she speaks, then he or she's a native Klingon speaker. No other definition fits.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 294
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 09:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GAELTACHT BHEAG AN CARR SEO

Cár cheannaigh tú é sin? Is breá liom é!

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 131
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cainteoir dúchais or not, who cares? Aonghus has fluent Irish and is kind enough to help us learners on this forum - he doesn't have to.

Please correct me if you have the time }:-D

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1637
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Cár cheannaigh tú é sin?

Fuair mé ón Spailpín Fánach é cúig bliana ó shin.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 296
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Rómain agus a Kharhu --

Ba mhaith liom a chur i gcuimhne:
The Daltaí Boards are intended to promote a free exchange of ideas and knowledge concerning the Irish language and its grammar . . . When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone.

I don't know if you've offended Aonghus by your insults, but you've offended me on his behalf.

If you prefer to be a "purist" about Irish, simply "tune out" those people whose Irish you feel is less-than-perfect and ignore them. No one ought to be belittled because you feel their Irish doesn't meet your standards of perfection.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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NiallMac (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

if you are brought up speaking irish, in your house, with friends, family, i mean born into an irish speaking family then you are native, no? Is the Falls Road Gaeltacht not a gaeltacht at all. I don't know if any of you have been up there ( or some of you even know where it is) but they speak beautiful grammatically correct irish in their own dialect. Are they not natives?

If you are not familiar with this, google Fobairt Feirste..

The more i think about it, is native not more to do with geographical origin, and if so, Aonghus is native and irish is his native language because he was born in ireland, into an irish speaking atmosphere

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 31
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceolmhar, I agree. I was not querying Aonghus' ability at all. He did not specify however if his father was a native speaker (=a speaker of Ulster/Connaught/Munster dialect) or a neo-native. Aonghus is probably a 2nd generation neo-native - neo-natives are now emerging in Belfast - people whose parents were not native speakers but who have been raised by their parents, who learned the language fluently, speaking the lingo as their first language. These will then be able in about a generation to raise 2nd generation neo-natives. There is nothing wrong with being neo-native - it is a required step if Ireland is to get back her language, and is not a slur. But the difference is this: a native speaker has a continual chain of 1st-language speakers in his ancestry. A neo-native has at some point in his ancestry a non-1st language speaker who decided to learn the language fluently and transmit that. I say this for definitional purposes and not as any comment on Aonghus' language, which I am not qualified to comment on.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 297
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fuair mé ón Spailpín Fánach é cúig bliana ó shin.

Ní fheicim é ar an suíomh; ar cheannaigh tú é sa siopa?

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cionaodh, you have probably misunderstood. I did not criticise Aonghus' Irish, and am in no position to do so. I just commented on the difference between technical terms, native and neo-native. They are terms met with in linguistic articles, but I certainly did not comment on Aonghus' Irish ability. I hope he did not make the same misunderstanding.

Another obvious point is that the more people there are in the East of Ireland who speak standard Irish as their first language, the more people on this board will have to revise their opinion that Standard Irish is not an authentic dialect. Clearly it does exist as an authentic form of 1st language among many people all over Ireland.

(Message edited by karhu on July 25, 2006)

(Message edited by karhu on July 25, 2006)

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Canuck
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Username: Canuck

Post Number: 49
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nonsense. If that were the case, then almost the entire population of North America are non-native in the only language they know.

Absolute nonsense.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 409
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,

re Spanish, English etc - stop comparing normal healthy, not-threatened languages with an endangered language. What is intuitively right about one, is not necessarily valid by extension abut the other.

Cainteoir dúchais to me is not someone who was born inside the imaginary Gaeltacht line! This supposition is outright ridiculous as it is not the government's fiat that defines who speaks good Irish and who not.

I do not dispute that Aonghus is fluent speaker - he is as fluent as any good learner. Being a good fluent learner doesn't make one a native speaker, if you understand what I mean.

Cainteoir dúchais is someone who speaks beautiful, idiomatic Irish which is relatively free of English syntax, .i. English way of seeing the world. There is nothing inherently bad about saying "bhuel" or "siúráltha" - it is not a single occasional word that defines the language. But it is really pitiful is copula is used incorrectly, or smth like "Tá sé óg AGUS dalba" is produced [agus is never used between two adjectives in Irish].

If someone doesn't understand how initial mutations function in Irish - believe it or not, behind seemingly chaotic rules there is a beautifully arranged strict logic; if someone says "Táim brónach, táim tuirseach" - it is not a change of language - it is a direct translation from English, and I don't accept that person as "native speaker". Sloppy learner - yes, native - no. Cainteoir dúchais doesn't use "áistrigh" to express the idea of translation - she would rather say "cuir Gaelainn air" etc etc. Look for idioms and speech richness to decide if someone is native.

To sum up - it is all these nice minor things (like saying "Tá mo chuid éadaigh agam á chur orm" without a blink of eye) that make someone cainteoir dúchais, not living "inside" the Gaeltacht line or being raised by someone with mediocre Irish.

Concerning all those who were raised through Irish. I live in ethnically mixed city, where Lithuanians make only 55% of population (this [high] percentage was attained fairly recently), and Poles make about 25%. So believe me - there are many Polish-background children who were raised through Lithuanian now (because of all the advantages of knowing state language). I see those people everyday. Sometimes it seems they speak impeccably, but you are duped for a very short time, because inevitably grammar or word usage mistake slips in. So those people are NOT natives. How can the children have a perfect Irish if their parents didn't have one? The children just propagate mistakes of their parents - there are no miracles on this earth.

It is too dificult to explain these concepts for me, I more feel it than I can put in rigorous definition.

Look one more,last example. My English is good enough for me to raise a kid through it. Will that kid become a native speaker while copying all my mistakes and bad grammar? I somehow doubt it. It is more likely that everybody would conceive my child being a good learner, but just.

Best regards

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NiallMac (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 10:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

so am i not an english speaking neo-native because my ancestors originally spoke irish...

Once again i will say it, the word native is concerned with geographical origin so therefore if you are from ireland you are a native of ireland, regardless of where your parents ceom from? so, if your natively irish, were born into a family that spoke irish to you along with community and friends and bla bla bla then you are a native, and irish is your native language?


princestons definition of 'native':
a person who was born in a particular place; an indigenous person

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Canuck, many people in North America do not have English speaking ancestors, but speak English as their first language - but they are living in an English speaking country, they are surrounded by the English language equivalaent of the Gaeltacht. They are not being brought up speaking English in a non-English speaking country by parents who learned it as adults. I think a better analogy would be Indian English - which has established itself as a dialect of English that many millions speak as a 1st language, but they speak it as a minority in a Hindi speaking country, and at some point their parents, grandparents or great-grandparents or whatever took a decision to learn English as a foreign language and then pass it on to their children as a 1st language. But: notice that Indian English has its differentia specifica when compared with UK or US or Irish English.

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Niallmac, your Irish ancestors learned English and became neo-native speakers thereof. But once Ireland became mainly English speaking, Irish people began to grow up in an English speaking country, then it became a native language. While teh community was still GAelic, those who learned English as a foreign language and decided to bring their children up speaking English as their first language were rasiing them as neo-natives, because it wasn;t the community language. Once it was, it became native. There is no difference in language ability implied by the terms native and neo-native; Cionaodh wrongly inferred a slur that was not intended.

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NiallMac (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

so, what your saying is im a neo-neo-native?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 410
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Karhu - maith thú, very exact comparison. Still - the English natives on Indian subcontinent are surrounded by Hollywood production and American-led internet. So their variety is not allowed to veer too far away from other varieties of English.

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 35
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

NiallMac, read my last post. Were you raised in an English-speakinig community speaking English as your 1st language? Almost certaintly the answer is "yes", so you are a native speaker. But at some poitn in your ancestry there will be neo-natives, because Ireland hasn't always been mainly English speaking. Am I really ineloquent that I havvve to explain this so many times? By the way, Hiberno-English is "Hiberno" because of the influence of those neo-natives.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 411
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chionaoidh,

A chara, there is no purism in insisting on proper grammar. Since when grammar mistakes are labelled "alternative forms"? Be reasonable, in any language the are correct and incorrect forms - and there is nothing you can do about it.

Btw - purists are people that abhor borrowed verbs, prefering the native one. Never has one suggested that correcting someone's bad grammar or syntax constitutes "purism".

Be careful in your choice of terms!

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NiallMac (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

wow, someone has no sense of humour, i'll be careful in future :-)

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 402
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is a quote from above:

"a native speaker has a continual chain of 1st-language speakers in his ancestry. A neo-native has at some point in his ancestry a non-1st language speaker who decided to learn the language fluently and transmit that"

Now I'm going to remove the reference to speakers, speaking and language.....

a native xxx has a continual chain of xxxx in his ancestry. A neo-native has at some point in his ancestry a non-xxxx who......

Replace those xxx's with any other human characteristic (of which speech is one) and you'll find a very frightening and narrow minded result.

Defining "native" versus non or "neo" native by ancestral lineage is a pretty scary thing.

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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NiallMac (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

i think the more correct word is Pedant

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 412
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And one more thing.

I find it really amusing that some people don't understand that sadly there is NO link whatsoever between being Irish citizen/being born on the island and the claim to fluency in Irish. The lamentable truth is that more than 95% of Irish citizens are fluent ENGLISH speakers, and the the coat-of-arms on the passport doesn't prove anything.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 299
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I live in (and have spent most of my life in) an area of the U.S. that has a very pronounced regional accent and idiom -- think JFK (although there are actually several quite different variants of this in my area). I not only don't sound like JFK (or any of my New England neighbours), I don't sound like I'm from any other particular region, nor do I sound like I have a non-U.S. variant of English. Does this make me a neo-native? Or does it simply mean I've had a variety of influences and therefore have the English equivalent of a "lárchanúint"?

A Kharhu, slapping a label like "neo-native" on Aonghus just because he may have had multiple influences on his Irish is at least condescending if not outright insulting.

Scríobh Róman:
With all respect a chuid Gaelainn is far from perfect. Bhuel, I hazard a guess that he is not a cainteoir dúchais
I think you define cainteoir dúchais very narrowly, a Rómain. I think, perhaps, you imply that one can only be a cainteoir dúchais if one's parents taught them pure dialectical Irish with no influence from the CO whatsoever. You want perfection where there is little to be found, else you will consign that person's Irish to the category of "fluent learner", even if he/she has had Irish since they were in the pram.

A Rómain, a Kharhu -- some people CHOOSE to allow multiple influences on their Irish. Whatever their reasons -- and you need not agree with them -- this doesn't suddenly disqualify them from being "native" or "cainteoir dúchais".

If you would like to disqualify such a person as being an expert on such-an-such dialect, feel free, but please be careful about what epithets or labels you bandy about.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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NiallMac (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Obviously you've never been in dublin if you call that english.

I didnt claim that anyway, and i dont remember if anyone did?

I said that if your irish, born in ireland, born into an irish speaking community or family or people who you have regular contact with then you are a native irish speaker.

what are you talking about?

"if your irish, step into th paaarlour,
theres a welcome there for youuuu,
If your name issss, Timothy or Pat,
So long as you come from ireland,
theres a welcome on the mat,

if you come from, the mountains of Mournee,
or Killarny's Lakes so blueee,
Whoever you are we will make a fuss,
as long as your irish your one of us,
If your irish this is the place for youuuu"


That just came out i couldnt contain myself

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 413
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chionaoidh,

did we touch PRONUNCIATION anywhere? I could comment on Aonghus pronunciation as I heard it (remember AA recordings?) - but I will skip this topic as this is primarily written forum, so it is irrelevant here.

What I was talking about is GRAMMAR and SYNTAX. I really doubt that thou, Kenneth, useth any word-by-word translated, say, Spanish idioms in English. I refuse to believe that you struggle to use the verb "to be correctly". I can't fancy that choosing a right preposition while writing is a pain for you. Think about all those things - THIS makes someone native speaker. And it doesn't matter if someone was born in rural Montana, Zimbabwe or Papua-New Guinea.

I don't have to think about the words or to consult the dictionary while writing this message. Even grammar doesn't make me stop for contemplation - as I am a fluent, proficient speaker of English. But I realise my limitation. I will never enjoy English poetry as you do as all those rare, archaic words are unfamiliar to me, so I would have to peep into vocabulary too often. So I more than sure that anybody knows in which languages somebody is really native and in which not. One will never belie oneself for too long time.

Peace - no flame intended :-)

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 403
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well then...I'm not a native english speaker, am I???

If you follow my ancestral lineage, you will find that my ancestors spoke Irish as their first language!! So..HEY..I am a native speaker of Irish!!! No wait...German...no...wait...Scots Gaelic....no...Cherokee...

Faulty logic my friend...very faulty logic.

The truth is I speak English as my first language and it is my only first language. I do speak very ggod but not fluent Spanish, no more than a phrase or two of German and am horribly inept at Irish and even more so at Scots Gaelic.

But, by your logic, I'm not a native speaker of english and since I can't speak any other language fluently I have no native language.

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 300
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Róman:

there is no purism in insisting on proper grammar. Since when grammar mistakes are labelled "alternative forms"? Be reasonable, in any language the are correct and incorrect forms - and there is nothing you can do about it.

Btw - purists are people that abhor borrowed verbs, prefering the native one. Never has one suggested that correcting someone's bad grammar or syntax constitutes "purism".


Let me be clearer with my terms, then, a Rómain, and I don't mean disrespect by saying this -- you're a bit of a perfectionist. Your perfectionism leans towards purism, though I'll grant that you're relatively open-minded when an item in question is certifiably dialectical . . . even when it varies from your favourite dialect.

Because you're a bit of a perfectionist, you have little tolerance for mistakes. You also see the CO as a huge mistake. Ergo, if someone uses Irish that is permitted by the CO but is not dialectical in any way, it is a mistake, right?

Although many people dislike the CO, they don't all regard it as the mistake of the century. Since many of their schoolbooks were in CO Irish, they've internalised some things you regard as mistakes, and it didn't bother them. While they're unperturbed by it, it drives you to distraction. Not eveyone is a perfectionist like you, though.

So you denigrate such people -- whether knowingly or unknowingly. Why? Will that change what they learnt years ago, or make them care one way or another?

Why not just let it go? "Tune out" those people whose Irish bugs you. Then you won't need to harp on other people's imperfections, as you will have mentally bypassed them.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Karhu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

James - I did not say any of those things you allege in your last post. Re-read the threat.

Róman, I hope you don't mind, this is just for your information in case you find it interesting. YOu cannot say "thou useth", the -th forms were 3rd psn singular. The 2nd psn sinigular was -st, thou usest. (except for you are, thou art)

(Message edited by karhu on July 25, 2006)

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Canuck
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is it just me, or is it getting medieval in here?

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Róman
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chionaoidh,

Although I have a deep respect for all the things you have done to promote the language, and albeit I find your ideas utmost refreshing at times - you seem to confound unrelated things.

CO - was, is and will stay a SPELLING system. So in this light I see it as a huge mistake, .i. as a FAILED spelling system, but nothing more. Thus, there are not, and there can't be GRAMMAR mistakes in CO.

So - I will always campaign for some changes to be done in CO. But how is this related to the issue of someone being native or not native?

One can write with Chinese characters Irish words or even be barely literate - the language exists notwithstanding. Spelling is just a representation of the language, not the language itself. It is no fault of caighdeán if someone misuses copula, or English word-order.

I will finish with a rephrasal of one seanfhocal (cheek-in-tongue):

Ní cheileann caighdeán oifigiúil aineamh ná locht.

:-)))

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Róman
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Karhu - yea, I was kind of thinking. Thanks for reminder.

So - he useth, but thou usest, right? and yes - my favorite - "thou dost in dust" ;-)))

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 11:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Róman:
did we touch PRONUNCIATION anywhere?
What I was talking about is GRAMMAR and SYNTAX.


Fair point, though when I mentioned sounding different than those around me, it's not just pronunciation, but word choice and idiom. My grammar is relatively standard, but even in that, it varies from that of my wife who grew up in the same city. Since I didn't get into details, you can be forgiven for not knowing.

There *are* sometimes more than one right way to construct a sentence, there *are* sometimes more than one right word or phrase to use and there *are* sometimes more than one right way to spell a word, whether we're talking about English or Irish.

For you, though, if it's a COism and doesn't occur in the dialects, it must be wrong. I say -- not necessarily.

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Eavan
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I agree--that would be like saying that I'm not Canadian because my ancestors came from elsewhere. So I guess that I'm a native of Irepolgerrus & a native speaker of, um, ...I have no identity!!:)

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Róman
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Co-ism not supported by any dialect (even their *favorite* - Conamara dialect) - is a pure invention. So how can it have ANY validity? Fiction has to be left to novelists and sci-fi writers, they are better at this, there is no place for it in grammar book.

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Karhu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

But, Róman, what do you think of my argument that, if there are people in the Galltacht, who speak Standard Irish as their first language, then it is gaining authenticity? Although they say that only 10,000 people speak Irish in the Gaeltacht every day (last census figures), what are the figures for 1st-language speakers speaking Irish every day, albeit in the GAlltacht. It migght be that these number more than 10,000, so that Standard Irish has more daily speakers (counting first-language mother tongue speakers only) than the dialects. Where does this leave dialect enthusiasm? I am playing devil's advocate here, but it is an interesting point to ponder.

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Róman:
CO - was, is and will stay a SPELLING system. So in this light I see it as a huge mistake, .i. as a FAILED spelling system, but nothing more. Thus, there are not, and there can't be GRAMMAR mistakes in CO.

You're right, strictly speaking. But the spelling "reforms" have changed certain grammatical processes -- for instance, how does one conjugate verbs? Do we add endings, or must we remove something first and then add the endings? Which process we follow depends on whether we're following the CO or not. My apologies if I was unclear.

(Message edited by cionaodh on July 25, 2006)

http://www.gaeilge.org

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Róman
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A leads,

Anois is arís, CO is about spelling. So whether you write "léighim" or "léim" it doesn't change your pronunciation! If [l`e:m`] in Munster/Connacht, or[l`e:j@m] (mind the broad "m"!) in Ulster. So how can writing in CO change someone's grammar? This is puzzling me.

If you read letter-by-letter CO - you arrive at something very close to north Mayo pronunciation. But again - there is no good or bad grammar "in it".

There is no prescription in CO to say things like "Táim tuirseach". It is those self-styled "natives" boasting Irish passports that invent things that never existed in Irish before who really account for bad grammar. There is nothing inherintly wrong about the words like "tuirseach" - valid word *if* used correctly. This IS a good Irish - "Tháinig sé go tuirseach abhaile." or "Bhí an cat tuirseach ina luí fén ngrian".
But "Tá sé tuirseach" is not.

Take it or leave it.

If somebody says "dormo" instead of "duermo" in Spanish - I imagine this is a mistake. But "táim tuirseach" - "an option". Interesting logic.

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For the record --

As longtime DnaG readers know, I'm no fan of the Caighdeán Oifigiúil. I simply don't discount those who use it (or parts thereof) as either wrong or non-native/neo-native.

My apologies for helping to drive this thread further astray than it already was, and thanks to Aonghus for starting a new thread on the original topic.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Aonghus
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman. Tá tú mícheart:

quote:

CO - was, is and will stay a SPELLING system. So in this light I see it as a huge mistake, .i. as a FAILED spelling system, but nothing more. Thus, there are not, and there can't be GRAMMAR mistakes in CO.



CO deals with both spelling and grammar.

Gramadach na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge: An Caighdeán Oifigiúl (1979). Oifig an tSoláthair. Baile Átha Cliath

You are also wrong about táim tuirseach:

http://www.clanntuirc.co.uk/TRAA/TRAA6.html

quote:

Tuirseach mé den tuirsese:
Den tuirse cé táim tuirseach,
Truagh is méid mo thuirsese
Mé ón tuirse go tuirseach



This poem is very much pré caighdeán, and from Munster.

Your narrow reading seems to have blinded you to the riches of irish.

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Eavan
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Again, excuse my ignorance--what the heck is "CO"?

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Karhu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This isn't strictly what we were talking about, but interesting all the same - and more pertinent to the original question of how to hunt out Irish in the GT. The last census gave a breakdown of how many people in each GT county spoke Irish *every day*, but this is itself not necessarily an indication of a fullblown community language, as some people who say "Conas (a)tá tú?" to their neighbours at least once a day may have answered yes. And there is also the question of stripping out schoolchildren who may only speak at school. look at these figures:

Numbers speaking Irish daily in the Gaeltacht:

Galway = 7,881
Donegal = 5,235
Kerry = 1,682
Mayo = 1,221
Cork = 604
Waterford = 275
Meath = 215
TOTAL=17,113

eliminating those between 5 and 19 who might be speaking it at school only:

Galway = 5,042
Donegal = 3,664
Kerry = 1,052
Mayo = 634
Cork = 328
Waterford = 142
Meath = 111
TOTAL = 10,973

Hmm! Hunting down those 328 speakers of Cork Irish must be quite difficult!

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Karhu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another method of analysis of the strength of Irish in the various GT counties, is to analyse, of the daily Irish speakers, what % school children (those 5-19) make up. The higher the %, the weaker the GT.

Galway: 36.0%
Donegal: 30.0%
Kerry: 37.5%
Mayo: 48.1%
Cork: 45.7%
Waterford: 48.4%
Meath: 48.4%
Total GT: 35.9%

Interestingly, this shows that Irish is holding its own in Donegal better than in Galway. Could Donegal Irish emerge as the largest dialect in the future?

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

CO stands for Caighdeán Oifigiúil = Official Standard, which refers to the version of the Irish language that is considered standard by goverment bodies, including state-sponsored educational institutions.

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Páidímacu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Why should school children be eliminated? Surely these are the gaelgeoirí of the future & account for a large percentage of those who do speak irish daily outside the education system as well as inside it.

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déiridh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

rud éigin eile...
living in the gaeltacht in the early 90's i heard the kids say 'tá mi tuirseach' regularly.

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Páidímacu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

According to the 2002 census, Gaelteachtaí in Cork contain the highest percentage of irish speakers per population with 83.1%.

Others include:

Donegal County - 74.9%
Galway City - 54.2%
Galway County - 78.3%
Kerry - 76.7%
Mayo - 67.1%
Meath - 60.6%
Waterford - 77.7%

This gives an average of 72.6%

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Dennis
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dúirt Róman:
quote:

or smth like "Tá sé óg AGUS dalba" is produced [agus is never used between two adjectives in Irish].

Really? Have you learned this shibboleth from your extensive exposure to written and spoken Irish? From the many songs and poems, short stories and novels, radio programs and TV shows you have taken in, in Irish? No? Maybe then from all the second-hand accouts you've read in English about Irish??

Maidir le "agus" idir aidiachtaí, seo teachtaireacht a chuir mé chuig Gaeilge-B thiar sa bhliain 1999:

The question was: Can I use "agus" to link predicate adjectives?
In other words, should I say

A) Tá sí ard agus tanaí.

or

B) Tá sí ard tanaí.

The majority of learners and users of Irish are also native
speakers of English, and English requires the use of "and"
with predicate adjectives ("She is tall and thin", but not
"She is tall thin.") Irish freely dispenses with "agus" in
such sentences, however. Therefore, books and teachers have
tended to emphasize the non-use of "agus" in Irish, in order
to overcome the natural English inclination to include it.

Fine, but Irish also freely uses "agus" in such sentences.
Both A and B above are perfectly correct, and as I pointed
out before, B is the one found in "Now You're Talking" (which
is now packaged for the American market under another title,
which escapes me).

In actual speech, I think you'd be more likely to hear A
when the speaker is deliberating about the woman's appearance,
while B would be heard from a speaker who uses "ard tanaí"
as pat expression, expecting them to go together naturally.

I've taken some time to flip through my copy of _Dúil_, a
collection of short stories by Liam Ó Flaithearta (1897-1984),
a native speaker born on Inis Mór and one of the finest prose
stylists the language has produced in this century. He doesn't
indulge much in predicate adjectives, but when he does he uses
both the A and B models.

Examples with "agus":

1. Bhí sé cinn acu bán agus mór.... Caoirigh sléibhe
na cúig cinn eile. Bhíodar beag agus dorcha.

(Five of them were white and big.... The other five
were mountain sheep. They were small and dark.)


2. ... an nimh imithe as a shúile. Bhíodar arís bog,
modhúil agus codlatach.

(... the venom gone from his eyes. They were again
soft, gentle and sleepy.)

3. B'álainn na súile a bhí aige. Bhíodar donn agus
breac agus uaithne.

(He had beautiful eyes. They were brown and speckled
and green.)

4. Bhí sé aonraic agus sách bocht.

(He was solitary and rather poor.)

Examples without "agus":

5. ... cé go bhfuil sí caol ard

(... although she is thin [and] tall)

6. Bhí an bheirt againn go deas teolaí anseo...

(The two of us were nice [and] cozy here...)

7. ... láimhíní a bhí chomh bog sleamhain bliain nó
dhó ó shin

(... little hands that were so soft [and] smooth a
year or two ago)

Examples of adverbs with and without "agus":

8. ... agus ag géimneach go fiánta agus go cráite

(... and lowing fiercely and tormentedly)

9. ... na héanacha ag scréachaíl go géar garg

(... the birds screeching sharply [and] harshly)

10. .. múnlaithe go deas flúirseach agus go feisceanach

(... moulded nicely, abundantly and conspicuously)


I hope these examples are useful to those who are interested
in this interesing question of style and grammar. (I could
say more about how the writer "Máire" deals with this matter,
and why he does what he does, but that can wait.)

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Karhu
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Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 01:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OOPS! I made a mistake. I was looking at the number of MALE speakers only. So double those figures I just gave you. The numbers of daily speakers in the GT just jumped by 10,000. But the other results stand, mutatis mutandis.


Páidímacu, the figures you cited are for people who **could** speak Irish, but only 34,000 of the 60,000+ population of the Gaeltacht said they **did** speak Irish every day. Most of the others spoke it once a week or once a month. It's nice to know that 83.1% of people in the Cork Gaeltacht can speak Irish, less nicce to know that only 45% of people in the Cork Gaeltacht actually do so on a daily basis.

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Antaine
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Páidímacu -

the argument for the elimination of schoolchildren from the numbers is that they have to take irish in school - therefore they use it every day in class. daily speakers? if it's never used outside the classroom it isn't doing the language any good, and inflating the numbers of 'daily speakers'

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Róman
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 02:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Re Cork - Irish is reasonably strong in Cúil Aodha and Oileán Cléire - no really worse than in Waterford and definitely stronger than in Uíbh Ráthach. The percentage for the county is diluted by loarge swathes of land included in the GT where no Irish is spoken. So if you go to Cúil Aodha, or Cléire - more than 50% speak Irish daily - but the rest is of course nothing to be proud of.

quote:

You are also wrong about táim tuirseach:



Aonghus - verse is not good evidence of the speech. The word order and grammar can be deliberately altered to fit the rhyme. The whole poem is based on repeating word "tuirseach". So be sure your example is relevant before offering it triumphantly to the board.

quote:

Therefore, books and teachers have tended to emphasize the non-use of "agus" in Irish, in order to overcome the natural English inclination to include it.

And rightly so, because "agus" is NOT equivalent of English "and". It is a conjunction used to connect the clauses. So even when you have sentences like this:

Tá Máire agus Séamas ann - there is a clause lurking behind - tá Máire agus tá Séamas ann. This explains why verbs are invariably used in singular in these cases.

So yes - you can have 2 adjectives connected with "agus" when a clause is implied.

All your examples give a juxtapositions, which is not applicable to your skinny and tall lady. You self, you give examples of complementing epithetes that don't use "agus".

Dennis - I didn't intend starting argument on very fine, poetic usages of words - so you intend to have an argument for sake of argument, I will not participate.
I wanted to convey a point about wrong syntax and direct translation from English - are you denying that this what happens in Ireland? Are you disbelieving that school textbook propagate the myth that "clann" means "nuclear family", or that monstrosities like "tá mé an-áthasach" are fostered in the schools? Don't pick a fight about a small nuisances - please see a broader picture.

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 04:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman,

quote:

Aonghus - verse is not good evidence of the speech. The word order and grammar can be deliberately altered to fit the rhyme. The whole poem is based on repeating word "tuirseach". So be sure your example is relevant before offering it triumphantly to the board



I concede that. I was in a hurry.

However, I invite you to read Dineen's article on tuirseach; It gives several uses of "táim tuirseach".

Táimse tuirseach traochta agus brean de do mhí iompair. Scairteann tú amach do thuarimí gan bunús a thabhairt dóibh. Ta lao órga déanta agat de chanúint nach ann di, agus tá tú ag baint feidhm as an tslat tomhais sin. Uair ar bith a thugaimse fianaise go bhfuil do chuid baoth thuairimí gan bunús, athraíonn tú do argóint, nó déanann tú neamh aird des na firicí.

An bhfuil tú fós ag maíomh, mar shampla, go dteipeann ar gasúr gaeltachta san Ardteist de bharr go mbuailtear bachall an Chaighdéan anuas orthu? An bhfuil fianaise dá laghad agat don tuairim sin? An bhfuil tú fós ag maíomh nach mbaineann an CO leis an ngramadach? An bhfuil fianaise dá laghad agat do sin?

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Antaine
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman - I see where you're coming from, just don't forget that language changes and evolves...not always from where or how we'd like to see it happen. Given Irish's particularly weak position, I really think that if it's going to survive as a spoken community language it will be doing so under heavy english influence in vocabulary and moderate influence in grammar. It would not surprise me in a hundred years to find no Irish spoken in the gaeltacht outside of school, but vibrant communities of neo-natives or neo-neo-neo-natives all over the rest of the country.

And that may not be a bad thing. It keeps the language from stagnating. Think of the influence english lanugage and culture has had on the island over the last 800 years, and how little Gaeilge responded to that, having been so marginalized. Now that it is coming into its own again it's going to all happen at once...the arrested evolution of the last few centuries...like a rubber band stretched to its breaking point and then released.

I always pull out the example of Norman French and saxon english. Also the result of about 400 years of heavy foreign influence from a very strong language, the english that was spoken on the other side was unrecognizable from the english that was spoken before in spelling, grammar, vocabulary and even the alphabet used lost several letters.

Compare, if you will before:
http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/texts/a4.1.html

and after:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/CT-prolog-para.html

Far from saying, "english is dead...this is some new creole that butchers the grammar and uses so many foreign words as to leave the original language unrecognizable" english today is one of the strongest, healthiest languages, and is because of its ability to absorb and adapt.

I had a linguistics teacher who, regarding borrowed words and grammatical errors, used to say (somewhat tongue-in-cheek), "if one person does it it's a mistake. If a community does it, it's a dialect. If the newsman does it, it's the standard."

And I know it's not as simple as all that, but what is standard, and what is acceptable and what is even in common practice is fluid in a living language, and they don't change overnight. If táim tuirseach doesn't catch on then it will be forgotten and what it the current "correct" way will be in use...however, if it does catch on, and fifty years from now is the common practice due to the influence of more students than natives and even 'neo-natives' then the language will have evolved and the people using it will wonder why it was ever done another way...

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Aonghus
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Táim tuirseach" is in Dineens 1934 dictionary.

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Páidímacu
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine,

Tuigim that the 5-19 age group use irish daiy in school; i just don't feel that this necessarily eliminates them from using it outside school also. Perhaps an daonáireamh seo will help clarify this as a specific question refers to daily use both inside and outside the education system.

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Dennis
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Post Number: 1639
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Táim tuirseach" is in Dineens 1934 dictionary.

Ní rud nua sa teanga é seo ach oiread:

o robtar toirsigh tra fir Mumhan
- Annals of the Four Masters, 1103.10 (compiled 1632-6)

an tan bhíd tuirseach ó bheith ag feitheamh ghnúise ... an diabhail
- Séathrún Céitinn (1580 - c. 1644)

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Karhu
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Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman, as you know I agree with the general thrust of what you have to say on Standard Irish, and I have learned a lot from you. But I incline towards thinking that Dennis' scholarship makes him very likely to be right on various questions. Anyway, the general thrust of your argument, that unnatural forms will be adopted by neo-natives - just as Hiberno Irish was influenced by neo-natives - leading, inevitably, to some unnatural forms. Actually, this is only the case if this is not combated by the education system. The Irish people started to learn Irish at a time when the education system was not comprehensive, but had that not been the case some non-standard forms would have been ironed out. But your point would probably be that the education system, particularly in the promotion of standard Irish, is abetting the adoption of poor Irish?

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1641
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Karhu, a chara,
quote:

... that the education system, particularly in the promotion of standard Irish, is abetting the adoption of poor Irish?

Don't you see the irony of two persons who have little actual command of the language, and very little first-hand experience of it, discussing (and too often pontificating on) what it "good" Irish and what is "corrupt"? Secondary sources, most of them in English, do not provide a comprehensive and reliable window onto the language. It's much too easy for beginners, relying on such sources, to turn a statement that applies to one time and place into an absolute and inflexible rule, or to grossly magnify the signifance of divergences from some percieved "norm" (i.e., some particular dialect at some particular point in time, or some particular handbook or grammatical opinion) while at the same time remaining (blissfully?) ignorant of the larger patterns of syntax and idiom that fluent speakers notice and appreciate -- and of the innovations, inventions, word-play, and stubborn idiosyncrasies with which fluent speakers test and challenge the boundaries of their language. A little more humility, and a little less self-righteous arrogance about what is "right, wrong, poor, good" in the language and for it would be welcome.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Karhu
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Post Number: 43
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Don't you see the irony of two persons who have little actual command of the language, and very little first-hand experience of it, discussing (and too often pontificating on) what it "good" Irish and what is "corrupt"?



Yes I do see the irony, and I do accept your point with respect to myself, but I feel embarrassed that Róman who knows much more Irish than I do has been mistakenly categorised with me.

Actually if you read this thread carefully, I have not pontificated on any grammatical, lexical, syntactical points of Irish at all, however. I didn't actually pontificate on dialects versus standard, either - although I may have done so in other threads. Read this thread, though, and you will concede my point. My only point related to the difference between a native and a neo-native speaker. This relates to general language acquisition theory - it has nothing to do with the Irish languaage as such, or syntax, idiom, innovations, inventions, word-play or idiosyncrasies at all.

Dennis you are not immune to self-righteous arrogance yourself. Contempt for learners is contrary to the raison d'etre of this board. Ask Ethel Brogan.

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Róman
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Post Number: 421
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis - I really like your attitude: before a beginner is capable of writing something no less grand than "Parliamint na mBan", he must shut up, and have no opinion.

So for your information - Irish is not your private FIEF, and you are not the only person who has the right to express an opinion, debate and argue. And the fact that I am not fluent yet is beside the point.

If you have been carried away, I will remind you that the biggest advances in Irish studies have been done by STRÓINSÉIRÍ you hate. And yes, they were NOT fluent at that moment. While I have no pretension what so ever to the glory of Mr Wagner or Thurneysen, I still consider that I might positively contribute to the cause of Irish language.

And last point - your condescending, patronising attitude is really HELPFUL for encouraging the learners to study the language. It motivates so much! THANK YOU, DENNIS.

(Message edited by Róman on July 26, 2006)

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1642
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I feel embarrassed that Róman who knows much more Irish than I do has been mistakenly categorised with me.

The point is that Róman's argumentation far outstrips his knowledge of Irish. You may be impressed by the way he presents his arguments. Unfortunately, his agressive rhetoric is more impressive than his knowledge of Irish.
quote:

Actually if you read this thread carefully, I have not pontificated on any grammatical, lexical, syntactical points of Irish at all, however.

Right. I was writing to both of you, but Róman is the main culprit.
quote:

Contempt for learners is contrary to the raison d'etre of this board.

When learners agressively and persistently claim knowledge that they do not possess, they are not immune from contempt. Then they're not behaving as learners, but rather setting themselves up pseudo-experts, just asking to be knocked down.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 423
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post



(Message edited by Róman on July 26, 2006)

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Róman
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Post Number: 424
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Féach cé tá ag caint anois. Mo náire thú, a Dhennis!

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Niallmac
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Post Number: 5
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Roman,
how is what dennis said patronising? or condescending, i cant see that anywhere.

You patronised me and insulted me making me feel as if my irish was not legitimate because I learned the Caighdean Oifigiuil (along with other influences).

I agree with dennis, and im sure 99% (i know you like percentages) of learners would agree in that they dont like people who cant speak the language preaching them about what the best way to speak irish is. I dont know if you notice or if you do it on purpose to agitiate people, but its very condescending.

Surely as a 'language expert' (i think someone called you), you should realise that some one that speaks the language and has a great understanding of the language has more of an authority to speak about it then some one with a Ph. D In Linguistics. ( Im sure you'll say no)

Dennis has done nothing.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 425
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Niallmac - you even didn't understand what I was saying all along. The debate was about idioms and direct translations from English. CO has nothing to do with this as it is SPELLING system. So, give me a break, if you don't follow the thread.

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 3474
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman,

you persist in your errors.

As I have pointed out several times, CO is both a system of spelling and of grammar, as can be seen from the title of the work:
Gramadach na Gaeilge agus litriu na Gaeilge / an caighdean oifigiul. Baile Atha Cliath : Oifig an tSolathair, 1958 reissued 1979.

You pointed out a specific idiom as a direct translation from English; I have shown you evidence - which you ignored - that you are incorrect; you persist.

You have not provided any sources, ever, to back up your claims - that, in anybody's book is the very essence of pontificating.

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Niallmac
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Username: Niallmac

Post Number: 6
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I SAID: Dennis did not offend me or anyone else or else they would have posted.

You have offended me before and have witnessed you offended other people before.

What dennis said made sense to me, and im guessing alot of other posters.

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Julia
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Username: Julia

Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 04:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine, thank you for your post! People forget that languages evolve and change.

Irish is a tricky case, if only because the language has been so threatened that people want to cling furiously to whatever vestiges of "authenticity" they can detect. And while I appreciate that degree of loyalty, it ultimately harms the language if it leads to rigidity and the denigration of learners.

I'm advocating neither poor grammar nor spelling; just the realization that languages evolve, and different communities of speakers will use the language with nuanced (and not-so-nuanced) differences.

Irish is NOT helped by telling people dismissively that their Irish is bad in an effort to denigrate them.

It is not helped by attitudes like "If you weren't born in the Gaeltacht and if you don't speak dialect X, then your knowledge of and opinions about the language are worthless." It would be wonderful if we celebrated native speakers, rather than using them to discourage and belittle fluent speakers who didn't have the privilege of growing up in an Irish-speaking household.

This is a language--and a community of learners--that needs all the support it can get.

It's a shame that I almost didn't post this because I can only anticipate rabid criticism and personal attacks. I wonder how many other people have stopped posting for fear of being attacked for their opinions?

Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

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Julia
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Username: Julia

Post Number: 46
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 04:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

(For the record, I didn't see Dennis' post as criticizing non-native speakers or saying that non-fluent speakers shouldn't have any say in a language.

To quote:
A little more humility, and a little less self-righteous arrogance about what is "right, wrong, poor, good" in the language and for it would be welcome.

I think that applies to everyone, fluent or otherwise.)

Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 04:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Since there are so many people, young and old alike, that speak, read and write in Standard Irish, would it be correct to say that someone is a native, Standard Irish speaker? There's seems to be justification for considering C.O. as a valid dialect on its own, even it it was fabricated as some compromise between the three major dialects. Take a look at Israel. Its native language Hebrew, as is spoken today, was fabricated about the same time the Standard Irish was fabricated and I don't think anyone would deny that the folks in Israel are non-native speakers of Hebrew.

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James
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Post Number: 405
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 04:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For what it's worth...and this isn't the first time I've posted this....

This self-rightousness that the "Linguists" have taken is exactly what has put me off of this site for the past year or so. I have mentioned on more than one occasion that the old spirit of (to use Julia's term) "a community of learners" is gone from this site and I see the "Linguists" as the primary culprits in that demise.

Learners tend to be a bit shy and somewhat intimidated by the very nature of the "learner" status. The aforementioned arrogance and denigration are counterproductive to recruiting and encouraging those new learners. Frankly, I doubt that I would have stuck with the language if I were just now coming to this site. Thank goodness I found this site some 5 years or so ago when it was truly a forum full of encouragement and mentoring.

Some of the stalwarts are still here (Aonghus, Dennis, Larry, Antaine et. al.) but even their participation has been overshadowed by the rigidly pedantic postings of others.

I sure do miss the old days!!

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 46
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 04:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This discussion proceeds at cross purposes, because refuse to even read the posts of other people properly, and continue to post "non sequiturs". A dialogue of the deaf, in fact. A case in point:

quote:

People forget that languages evolve and change.



What can one say about such a post? Who in the thread denied that languages evolve and change? This seems to be the "strawman" approach of alleged reasoning, whereby arguments not held by your interlocutor are ascribed to him, and then knocked down, in order supposedly to show that his arguments are false, even when they don't include the arguments just knocked down. For the umpteenth time - will the point sink in this time? - everyone knows that languages evolve **naturally**, but the Official Standard Irish is not a natural evolution of the Irish language. This is precisely the point. So the statement that "languages evolve and change" does not address the question at point in this thread. I know that languages evolve, and as far as I know other people in this thread are aware of that too, and I know of no-one who has EVER posted on Daltaí who has denied it. But what a good idea to insinuate that your interlocutors have denied this - you can then refute it and then false claim to have refuted your interlocutors' real arguments.

quote:

Take a look at Israel. Its native language Hebrew, as is spoken today, was fabricated about the same time the Standard Irish was fabricated and I don't think anyone would deny that the folks in Israel are non-native speakers of Hebrew.



Yet another poster who employs non-sequiturs as an alleged form of reasoning. Who has denied that the Israelis are native speakers of Hebrew? Anyone on Daltaí? Anyone in the world even? As I indicated above, a neo-native language being artificially restored ceases to have a neo-native quality once it becomes the language of a whole community and becomes the native language of people born into that community. Where is the Official Standard Irish the community language? Where is the Standard Irish Gaeltacht in other words? I have heard of the Gaeltachts were the Ulster, Connaught and Munster dialects are spoken, but where is the area of Ireland where Standard Irish is spoken as the community language as Hebrew is in Israel?

It is so much easier to refuse to engage with people's arguments and rush out a post before you have even taken in the ideas presented in a thread. It is possible to generate a lot of heat that way, but no light.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Karhu,

When you say that "who has denied that the Israelis are native speakers of Hebrew, etc.," you're just confirming my hypothesis. I never implied that anyone has said differently, so I don't think it's fair for you to categorize me as a non-sequitur employer.

In regards to "where is the Official Standard Irish the community language?" I think a large part of the answer to that question would be: the Gaelscoileanna all over Ireland! Also, the many, probably thousands, of folks who speak Standard Irish with their children at home. There was a show a few months back on TG4, the Irish-language TV association, that focused on the Irish-language schools in Ireland. It's too bad you didn't get to see it, because you would have seen for yourself the answer to your questions. Kids of all ages, and nationalities in Ireland, learning Standard Irish!

Caighdeán Oifigiúil Abú!

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 48
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 01:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In regards to "where is the Official Standard Irish the community language?" I think a large part of the answer to that question would be: the Gaelscoileanna all over Ireland! Also, the many, probably thousands, of folks who speak Standard Irish with their children at home.



These people all live in ENGLISH-speaking communities. That is the point. It is just as if I decided to talk to my child in Latin and bring him up as a (neo-)native speaker of that language. You are claiming that my living room would become a "Latin Gaeltacht" although everyone around us would be speaking another language.

The fact that attendees at Irish-language schools speak Irish in school is good, but the fact that they are not living in Irish-language communities must affect their Irish. All these people are in fact native speakers of English. I remember one person who graduated from an Irish-language school saying that no one in his school had a slender r! That's because an Irish language school is NOT a Gaeltacht. Neither can one person's living room be classed as a GT.

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Róman
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Post Number: 426
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 01:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Karhu, it is futile. People even don't notice that the passage:
quote:

Don't you see the irony of two persons who have little actual command of the language, and very little first-hand experience of it, discussing (and too often pontificating on) what it "good" Irish and what is "corrupt"?

Is DENIGRATING, BELITTLING and HUMILIATING and DEMEANING.

Our in-house, self-stylied expert on ALL matters - Mr Dennis King is the ultimate authority to judge, who has what kind of command of language. Interesting - no tests, no even face-to-face talk, not even samples of texts to analyse. He knows THE BEST. Dennis, I can just recommend you to follow this piece of advice (maybe you will recognise the author):
quote:

A little more humility, and a little less self-righteous arrogance about what is "right, wrong, poor, good" in the language and for it would be welcome.



p.s. Aren't you the same Dennis King who 1999 was spitting the saliva on every and all dialect-enthusiast? Aren't you the same person who ridiculed learners longing for authenticity? You were the one who proclaimed that caighdeán oifigiúil is THE only valid form of Irish. Maybe because you didn't know a jot about dialects at the time, and you were hiding your ignorance under the veil of aggression?

I see the time doesn't change some people. Go on, maith thú, job well-done, Mr Righteous.

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Niallmac
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Username: Niallmac

Post Number: 10
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman, Karhu, Since i joined i have yet to see you add to any conversation without offending anyone or sparking a row (of sorts). Thats all i have to say, and the longer you's continue to do this, the quicker it will take people to realise that you are just here to get up peoples noses.

I understand your interest in the language and am sure your qualifications as linguists or whatever the hell you's are are great (albeit give you no authority on a launguage you cant speak)..

The fact of the matter is, your offending everyone, not just one or two people like some in here, but everyone. Really, you's really need to think about the way you write your posts. There rreally is no point to argue with you's anymore, it adds nothing to DnG.

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 49
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman,

Dennis King is a scholar, not only of Modern Irish, but of Old Irish and Sanskrit too! Maybe you can discuss with him the PIE links between Lithuanian and Sanskrit! It would be absurd not to recognise someone's scholarship, and counterproductive to chase him away from the list.

Being a scholar doesn't mean you are always right of course. I was reading the archives the other day and found an exchange between Lughaidh and Dennis, where Dennis told Lughaidh that the spelling ráidht for rá didn't exist and that Lughaidh had made it up. But I looked it up in ó Dónaill's and ráidht is an independent entry in the dictionary as a variant of rá. So we can all get things wrong.

Anyway, the WORSE thing in this thread is the constant statement that learners should not be linguists!! I think the learners who are linguists are the most motivated, and they are the ones who want to know the most detailed points about the Irish language. Now, i wouldn't want to categorise Lughaidh or Jonas as "learners" as they are fluent, but they are certainly linguists, and I have learned more from them reading the archives and reading their messages than I have learned from the "native speakers of standard Irish": you can learn the odd snippet from Dennis or Aonghus in the archives, mainly written in Irish. The most recent thing I learned from Aonghus was "in ainm Chroim!" which had me rushing to Ó Dónaill!!!

Róman, I see that you model yourself after a number of overseas linguists on this list who have become fluent in dialects. Don't let anyone tell you that a learner cannot be a linguist!!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 806
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 09:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Karhu -

my point was exactly that. it may not be a "natural" evolution, but it doesn't matter where it comes from, what matters is whether or not it catches on and becomes a part of the language.

the next question is, if the culture that has the language is self-governing, and that governing body develops and adopts a 'standard'...is that "natural"?

in the end, it doesn't really matter. the question of whether or not 'standard' things that differ from the dialects become a permanent part of the language over the next generation or two depends on whether or not acquisition by learners of the standard continues to outstrip retention by natives of the dialects.

There is no 'wrong' there (acceptance of 'standard' elements vs rejection of them). Either way, it simply represents the next step in the evolution of a living language. An unnatural step? Perhaps.

This is not a moral question. It's not even a practical one, as so long as the language is allowing communication it's doing its job. It's a romantic question, the advocating of 'authentic' elements vs 'unnatural' ones. One can have an appreciation for, and even a preference for things to be a certain way for no practical or moral purpose, but it's not something two people can argue about to any logical end.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 03:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Karhu,

I didn't mean to get you or Róman all worked up or angry over my questioning or positions that I may take. I consider myself a student of Irish and entitled to ask questions and take positions that may need to be corrected by others more knowledgeable. Having lived and worked in academia for quite a number of years, both as a student and lecturer, it's natural for me to be involved in discussions where students function in the manner I describe above.

But back to the point of the Official Standard Irish community. There's an educational set of CD's called Turas Teanga, where the narrator literally takes a tour all over Ireland, visiting different areas where Irish is spoken as a first language. She herself is a native Dubliner who speaks excellent Irish, and she meets with people in Gaeltachts, but also folks that don't live in those areas, like Dublin, that use Irish in their daily lives. You might want to get a hold of these CD's, not only for the educational value, but for insight into how Irish is used throughout the country, not only in the Gaeltachts.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 308
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 03:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Turas Teanga DVDs are better (i mo thuairim) than the CDs. I find it helpful (for comprehension) to be able to watch the lips move whilst they're speaking.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 03:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks Cionaodh, I mistakenly said CD's when I meant to say DVD's. It's only on the DVD's that the narrator conducts her tour of Ireland and visits folks using Irish in their daily lives.

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Dearg
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Username: Dearg

Post Number: 173
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, sure, a Chionaoidh, you say this *after* I already bought the CD version. ;-)

http://greann.com

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Karhu
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Post Number: 60
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, Mac Leinn, I was going to mention that Cionaodh had often posted here recommending the DVDs. After all this business about dialects: I received the Buntús Cainte CDs recently, and I like them. And I can't help realising that after many months of studying Irish by using "Learning Irish" (I am in lesson 12 of said venerable tome), I would have learned to understand (oral + written) more Irish if I had spent my time using Buntús Cainte. [But the lack of explanations in BC might mean I could understand a lot more than I could generate correctly myself.]

I know that by the time I **finish** the book Learning Irish, I will have a much better understanding of grammar than it is possible to get from BC, but while you are slogging through the book, it is painfully apparent that communicative ability is not being built up quickly. The book has 36 chapters. Having completed one-third of the book, I can use the verb tá in nearly all tenses (subjunctive has not been mentioned yet) and can use the copula in the present. Some other verbs were introduced in lesson 12, but only in the imperative. So the curious thing is that one-third through, you can only use one verb proficiently. The future tense of normal verbs is not given until lesson 21, and the present tense does not come until lesson 23. So you can forget about learning how to say "he cleans" until lesson 23 out of 36. [Actually I know it is glanann sé, but I am talking about the structure of the book.]

With BC, there is no grammar at all. In Lesson 1 there is no explanation as to why you say "tá sé an-fhuar" but "tá sé an-te", with lenition in one case and not the other. So the book needs to be supplemented with something (ie with membership of the Yahoo group studying this textbook). But, genuine communicative ability is built up from page 1 of the book.

I am now wondering if the more logical course would have been to study Buntús Cainte, then Turas Teanga, then Progress in Irish (or Progress in Irish side by side BC and TT), and **then** move on to Learning Irish for a living dialect. Some would say pronunciation habits excessively influenced by English (as per the BC CDs) would have become entrenched by then. But it is a genuine question what order, what way round all this should be done. Personally I think Learning Irish as a textbook makes more sense when you have studied some standard Irish, and you can notice the differentia specifica of the dialect. When Ó Siadhail indicates on p28 that in Cois Fhairrge Irish the nominative plural is used for the vocative plural, but "there are a few nouns which have a special vocative plural form" such as "a chréatúireachaí" and "a fheara" - the only 2 examples given - I think it makes more sense if you know what standard Irish does in these circumstances and so you know what it is being compared with.

I am not saying people should not learn dialectal Irish at all. I think people need to learn to read and write standard Irish and speak one of the living dialects and be able to understand aurally all three living dialects. But after months of experience of Learning Irish, if I were asked by a complete beginner what textbook he should use, I would reply immediately: Buntús Cainte supplemented by Progress in Irish. The dialect-first approach requires you to be a linguist-learner, with good results achieved only gradually, but the standard-first approach allows you to be a non-linguist-learner, making quick progress intially. What one lacks in authenticity, the other lacks in speed of progress. I feel sure most learners are more interested in the latter, at least in the earliest phases.

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Karhu
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Post Number: 61
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dearg, I think you need to buy both versions, as the DVDs supplement the textbook, which comes with the CDs??? It all costs about 80 euros in total. It will be in my next package from Litríocht...

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dheairg,

The CD's follow the book material basically, where as the DVD's are sold separately and contain a lot of material not found on the CD's, so you might want to consider the DVD's as a future, independent investment.

Get ready for some "beautiful" (in more ways than one) scenery.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 04:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Karhu,

Looks like my response to Dearg overlapped yours. Sorry, it wasn't intentional.

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Antaine
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 05:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Cionaodh
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Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 05:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

On the TT CDs, Sharon frequently makes reference to page numbers in the book, whereas I don't think she does on the DVDs. For that reason, you might like to own the whole lot. There are times for sitting down at a table with your CDs & book, and other times better suited to relaxing in front of the telly while the fair lass takes you on a visual "language journey".

A bit of a warning, though -- Turas Teanga isn't aimed at beginners, but rather at the intermediate learner or someone whose Irish has gone rusty.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Róman
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Post Number: 438
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 02:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Re books.

Karhu - you have noticed the thing I realised rather soon into Learning Irish - this book is an expanded grammar book, but not, alas, a self-teaching course. I have read somewhere that Ó Siadhal himself was surprised that the book caught as it was primarily meant for academics wishing to immerse in a specific Irish dialect.

Turas Teanga is fabulous, I am sure to buy it sometime - but it is absolutely not suited for beginner. This is something to take after even LI.

I study from Gussman/Doyle's book which is like BC and LI combined - .i. communicative approach - a lot of dialogues, but meaningful reading as well + plus very comprehensive grammar explanation. This morning I finished lesson 22 (out of 40) - so I had all of present tense, copula, adjective and noun declension, forms of "ag", "le", "do", "ó", "ar", modal verbs/constructions - teastáil, ba mhaith, caithfead and this "tá an nuachtán á léigheadh agam" fun-stuff.

And - surprise, surprise - the textbook is in a plain Corca Dhuibhne dialect. They even use "tigh" instead of "teach", or "thar n-ais" in place of "ar ais".

So I imagine I will finish this book (Cuirim "an leabhar uaithne" uirthi), fine-tune with TYI le Dillon for some finer points and then I will take the new TYI for everyday dialogue drill. So I will not be bothered by bad grammar explanations in that particular book.

p.s. Táim ag dul go hÉirinn inniubh. I am so excited!

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Karhu
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 03:03 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Róman, you seem to be working from totally different books. First you mentioned Aydan's Polish book on Munster Irish. Now you mention a book by Gussman/Doyle.

Before I forget: congratuations about the trip to Éire. Where are you going? Silly question! It must be the Cork Gaeltacht. Please post a trip report afterwards, telling us where you found the IRish language in that GT.

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Róman
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 03:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aidan Doyle is the full name of the guy - it is the same book ;-) Tá brón orm as confusion.

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Róman
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 03:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have grand plans - Baile Átha Cliath, Gailleamh (b'fhéidir Conamara), Luimneach, Múscraí, Corca Dhuibhne agus Corcaigh. Grand tour around the world in 2 weeks - joking of course

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Odwyer
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 06:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lucky you! Have fun at the Cork Gaeltacht, sounds like it's going to be an awesome trip!

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Pangur_dubh
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 04:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Once and for all, the CO is NOT, NOT, NOT a spelling system! Let me just briefly pick from from the index:

====================================
Reamhra

Noda

An tAimnfhocal [na diochlaontai]

An Aidiacht [diochlaontai & rl.]

An Forainm- Reamhfhoclach, coibhneasta

Uimhreacha - Bunuimhreacha, an tAlt leis ne hUimhreacha, Uimh.a Pearsanta, An ginideach

An Briathar

Seimhiu & Uru

Foirm an Ainmnigh in ionad an Ghinidigh.
===========================================
Does that look like a spelling guide?

Sorry. My computer is refusing to give me the sineadh fada at present.

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Daithí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 04:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The CO is a standardised form of written Irish, i.e. a standardised grammar, spelling, vocabulary etc.etc. Only the pronunciation is missing, and that's what makes some people think it's a spelling system.
Le meas,
Daithí

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Pangur_dubh
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 05:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have read down through this thread and I cannot help making some observations.

Firstly, though, I am merely an Irishman who lived all but five years of his rather long life in Ireland. During this time I learned Irish as a very young child - 4 years old, in fact. I had my schooling through Irish and used Irish on a daily basis in my career.

In all this time, I have never heard native speakers argue amongst themselves as to the relative merits of their own dialect. Neither have I ever heard anyone dismiss the Caighdean Oifigiuil. It may come as a disappointment to some, but the actual difference between the dialects in Irish is nothing compared to what one encounters in,say Germany, or Italy. There is no problem with mutual comprehension.

Irish and Irish speakers gets on with the business in hand and don't find dialect differences the stumbling block that some here would seem to make it. Moreover, they don't take each other to task when someone uses a doubtful grammatical form.

I have never met Aongus, but it would be inconceivable that in doing so I would be on guard to watch for any possible error he might make in his use of Irish. I think I would be more interested to learn about him as a person and communicate with him in Irish, whatever the dialect - even in the caighdean. By the bye, has it never occurred to anyone that a caighdean is the thing that prevents the fragmentation of language into Babel.

I therefore find this yearning for one dialect at the expense of another, and the denigration of the caighdean artificial and falsely sentimental, and ultimately irrelevant. It seems, strangely, that the protagonists for this kind of approach are not Irish, and do not live in Ireland. Sorry, but I happen to believe that those of us who have the harp on our passports, and who use Irish as Irish people, have more of a say in this matter than appears to be allowed to us by those who seem to like to express a superior knowledge. There is a term that describes this approach: arrogance. And this arrogance has led this thread down to levels where is never should go. I suggest that respect for those Irish who use Irish, and for their right to do so as they choose is fundamental to being here in the first instance, bearing in mind that a language is shaped and crafted by those who speak it. Perhaps anyone who cannot accept this should look at forums for, say, restored Hebrew, with it's shying away from the Construct State towards a more analytical form. There might be fruitful more ground there for the expression of contentiousness.

I would ask that we all reflect on where we stand in terms of respect for others on the board.

Finally, when it comes to language, carving one's personal preference on stone and denying anyone the right to deviate from it is utterly sterile. Pretty soon that sort of thing leads to one-sided conversation.

For the love of Irish, let us get back to more civilised debate.

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 05:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Phanguir Dubh (I hope I lenited correctly, if need be at all)

I very much enjoyed reading your posting, especially in regards to how the Irish get along with each other's dialects and the C.O. You present a very clear picture of how things really are in Ireland. I see your perspective confirmed in the Turas Teanga DVD's, which, although geared towards learners, shows how the Irish talk to each other in different situations and different dialects without any problems.

I happen to have a passport with a harp on it also, but it's only because I can claim citizenship through my grandmother being born in Ireland. Lucky me! In actuality, I'm an American struggling to learn the Irish language and it's reassuring to me to read your writing that indicates that the differences in the dialects and C.O. are not as scary as some make them out to be.

I also think though that this thread has steered itself back to being very interesting and civil and hope to learn more from the continuation of the contributors.

Thanks again for your thoughtful insight into what appears, at least to this learner, as a very complex subject.

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 06:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA, a PhD --

This is exactly what we've been trying to tell Róman & Karhu, but they're deaf to the truth.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Karhu
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cionaodh,

I did point out that it probably makes more sense to learn CO first with Buntús Cainte and PII. It is definitely doing things the hard way starting with a dialect.

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Pangur_dubh
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 05:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Mhic Léinn na Gaeilge, You did more than well enough to communicate and be understood - surely the prime goal in any language. But since you have posed the question of lenition, it would be churlish of me not to mention that you need to mutate the adjective too! :-) 'Dhuibh' would do the trick quite nicely. So, 'A Phanguir Dhuibh'. There! Not so hard, eh?

As to scariness, much of what has been discussed in this thread is simply not an issue in the speaking of Irish in Ireland, in my experience. The elevation of dialect preferences/differences into shibboleths is purely here on this board. I worked for many years with people from all of the Gaeltachtaí and there simply was never any difficulty in comprehension. Attending meetings in Donegal, Conamara or Corca Dhuibhne with people from all of those areas present was all in a day's work. Nobody struggled to understand, nobody 'pushed' their version of Irish, and the reports of these meetings were happily accepted in caighdeán format. That's my experience of Irish.

I'm happy to see that Cionnaodh is in agreement with my experience as stated previously.

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Karhu
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 05:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK, PD, it's only a problem for learners. This board is for ... learners.

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 08:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Karhu:
I did point out that it probably makes more sense to learn CO first with Buntús Cainte and PII. It is definitely doing things the hard way starting with a dialect.

Róman is far more guilty of being an unrealistic perfectionist regarding dialect vs. CO, but every so often you've jumped on his bandwagon, Karhu, which only encourages him.

He needs to understand how out-of-touch he is with the reality in the Gaeltacht. Perhaps this pending trip of his will be a course correction for him.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lucy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 08:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I can see him now in a local pub lecturing the "natives" on their lack of proper Irish. Hopefully, he'll survive.

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Pangur_dubh
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lucy, I think you have hit on the solution to this problem. A pint or two of Guinness should put the matter into a proper perspective for all of us. :-) Somehow I think Roman will survive - hope so!

Karhu, I take your point. But learners are the ones who are most likely to be discouraged or hindered by the emphasising of 'difficulties' that are really only minimal. I am a firm believer in encouraging.

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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Mo bheannacht ort, a Phanguir Dhuibh, as ucht an mhéid seo thuas. You said it all. Agus mar a dúirt Caitríona lá nó dhó ó shin:
quote:

The culture of the Gaeltacht and Gaeilge is rich in beannachtaí. Ní raibh mórán beannachtaí i gcuid de na posts le déanaí.

Tá seacht mbeannacht agus céad tuillte agat, dáiríre.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Lucy:
I can see him now in a local pub lecturing the "natives" on their lack of proper Irish. Hopefully, he'll survive.

He'd have to confine his lectures to Karhu's "neo-natives", because (as Róman will be only too happy to remind you) natives only ever use perfect Irish, especially in West Cork. They never use anything from the CO, and always tailor their speech, spelling and idiom to suit those several books of scholarly dialect studies.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Karhu
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 01:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Basically, I think "perfectionists" such as Róman should be encouraged, at least as a general rule. Of course, Aonghus is a mother-tongue speaker of Irish as he has explained, and we should never have got into commenting on a specific individual we have never met! And of course, this board is lucky to have people like Aonghus on this board. Can you imagine if we only had people who had learned the language in adulthood - who could we turn to for some answers to some questions?

But I think Cionaodh you haven't picked up on some negativity towards learners. I don't think the appropriate answer to all discussions is: "can you speak fluent Irish? if not, shut up!" There was a bit of hyperbole on both sides. I would prefer to see a far more indulgent attitude towards people whose commitment and scholarship deserves recognition. As far as I can tell, Róman is a young person andd so he will probably be around for decades, helping people learn Irish. If anything, rather than sap his spirit, I would rather steer such people towards the provision of detailed online resources for the study of Irish. You have seen Lars' site on Irish grammar, which many have commented on as being the best they've ever seen (admittedly the Christian Brothers' Grammar does not take much beating). Well, we really should welcome learners who seem to be linguists: it could be that all these foreigners will provide far more and far more detailed information on the Internet than others owing to their linguist orientation. Maybe if Daltaí thought creatively, it would offer Róman a page on Munster Irish that he could add to intermittently, providing very detailed information. Such people are gems, really.

I have realised that speakers of standard Irish do make up the majority of those speaking Irish every day in Ireland. And we haven't really noted that most standard languages were a little artificially created in the beginning. I don't think standard British English was a natural creation - it was not the dialect of any area, but something promoted by a few schools. And Shakespeare and others "artificially" introduced a lot of new words into the English language. They say in Spanish that the Castilian pronunciation of "z" as a "th" sound just reflects one king's lisp!

If I were really purist myself I wouldn't be studying Galway Irish. Róman has suggested that I should study Cork Irish in preference in a number of threads. But the fact that there are only 600 daily speakers of Cork Irish (excluding schoolchildren) has to be taken into account. It **might** have been a good idea in the 1920s to make Cork Irish the standard, but it would be an extremely foolish thing to do nowadays given the trends in the Gaeltacht since. Of course I want to learn to at least understand (aurally and in writing) all dialects, and the whole subject is fascinating.

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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 01:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I don't think the appropriate answer to all discussions is: "can you speak fluent Irish? if not, shut up!" There was a bit of hyperbole on both sides.

Karhu, your first sentence is a perfect example of hyperbole. All discussions? Hardly. Anyone here who is learning Irish has a perfect right to ask questions and offer solutions related to the language. But if someone makes a habit of making "authoritative" pronouncements based on shallow or incomplete data, he can expect to have his authority questioned in no uncertain terms. Face it, we're talking about Róman here, and no one else. Other learners generally receive a great deal of consideration, help and encouragement, from Aonghus, Cionaodh, Pangur Dubh, Caitríona, Seosamh, Lughaidh, and many other as well as myself.

The best thing for learners to do is to use as much Irish as you possibly can (GRMA, a Antaine!) and stop this interminable discussion of the language in the abstract. Léim isteach san uisce!

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Karhu
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 02:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Other learners generally receive a great deal of consideration, help and encouragement, from Aonghus, Cionaodh, Pangur Dubh, Caitríona, Seosamh, Lughaidh, and many other as well as myself.



It is appreciated. Many of your helpful comments lie in the archives and I can always ask some questions.

I am afraid - please excuse my ignorance - Léim isteach san uisce seems to mean to me "I read into in the water", and so I don't understand it! What does it mean?

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Dennis
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 02:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceist mhaith, Karhu. There's also a verb "léim" = leap, jump. The bare stem of a verb (the dictionary form) is the imperative.

Léim isteach san uisce! = Jump into the water! That is, start paddling around in the language, even if you can't venture far from the shore yet.

I could also have used the plural imperative here:

Léimigí isteach san uisce!

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Karhu
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Léim isteach san uisce! = Jump into the water! That is, start paddling around in the language, even if you can't venture far from the shore yet.



Is comhairle mhaith é! Tabharfaidh mé faoi!

(Is this correct?)

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Aonghus
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 02:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá. Déan, agus go néirí go seoigh leat.

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Cionaodh
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Karhu:
But I think Cionaodh you haven't picked up on some negativity towards learners. I don't think the appropriate answer to all discussions is: "can you speak fluent Irish? if not, shut up!"

I see very little negativity toward learners here, a Kharhu.

Things get negative, and even hostile, when anyone comes along and either sets themselves up as an expert with little actual knowledge/experience, or who attack or malign people from said vantage point of inexperience.

Basically, I think "perfectionists" such as Róman should be encouraged, at least as a general rule . . . I would prefer to see a far more indulgent attitude towards people whose commitment and scholarship deserves recognition.

As a "general rule", he would tolerated, somewhat indulged, and occasionally encouraged, if he had the humility to realise and acknowledge his shortcomings. Instead he set himself up as judge & jury of others based on a somewhat wide but exceedingly shallow level of experience with this language and culture. That being the case, the above "general rule" goes out the window and all bets are off.

I like Róman and have respect for his zeal for learning this language, and the amount of study he's doing to acquire good dialectical Irish. I hope this trip of his will give him enhanced perspective & understanding, and that he'll return to this forum with a new attitude and a better approach to interacting with others here.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Karhu
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Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 02:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil tú ceart, a Chionaoidh.

But you didn't spot my point about how Daltaí could channel his enthusiasm into providing online resources. It is worth a try, but I don't know if Róman has time to do so.

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Cionaodh
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Post Number: 314
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Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Karhu:
But you didn't spot my point about how Daltaí could channel his enthusiasm into providing online resources. It is worth a try, but I don't know if Róman has time to do so.

I omitted mention of the suggestion . . . because however good it might be, I think Róman has offended a lot of folks with his "style" of discussion, so I thought it unlikely that anyone would offer him such an accommodation.

In time, though, and with a change of attitude, it might be worth bringing up again.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lucy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe we don't have time for Róman.

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Post Number: 123
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Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Julia posted this line above: 'It's a shame that I almost didn't post this because I can only anticipate rabid criticism and personal attacks. I wonder how many other people have stopped posting for fear of being attacked for their opinions.'

Ba mhaith liom caint, más féidir liom, faoi ‘bullying’ nó bobaireacht, rud a fheicim ó am go ham.
Tá Gaeilge le foghlaim anseo agus, mar dhaltaí, is maith an rud é bheith ag foghlaim in áit bheith ag argóint.
All these expressions relate to forms of bullying:
1. Béalastán, bheith ag batalach
2. Imrím cos ar bholg ar, duine a scanrú le go ndéanfaidh sé rud
3. Ag caitheamh anuas ar… showing how the speaker puts himself above the person he mocks.

Is uafásach an scéal é ach tháinig máthair agus a gasúr chugham le déanaí ag iarraidh ceachtanna i Spáinís (go príobháideach) mar bhí bullies ina scoil agus mar gheall ar na focail a chuala sé thosaigh an leaidín beag sin ag ‘cutting’, ag gearradh a chorp. Bhí sé tar éis teacht amach ón ospidéal agus ní raibh sé ag iarraidh dul ar ais ar scoil níos mó.

We need to be very vigilant of the effect of words and the damage they can cause. A lot of very negative things were said in this thread above at times and for me it goes beyond being impolite to verbal bullying.

Caitríona

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Post Number: 124
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Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Kahru,
If he wanted to, Róman could start his own blog.
I admire your support for Róman but weighing the positive and the negative, we are losing valuable contributions from valuable people; people who don't rant and rave and lean on CAPS so it sounds like their shouting, people who don't call others names and insult them. Why should we tolerate all the negative behavior if it drives those positive learners away?
People are being very kind here in wishing Róman well and truly I do too. But I will clearly say that I think his behavior is wrong here and I would not tolerate any of that name-calling behavior in a classroom. It's disruptive and discourages other learners.
I’m sure each person has their own personal dislike in posts and of course tone is the most important factor but the following are some of the things that turn me off in a post:
1. CAPS
2. !!!!
3. Putting words in people's mouths as in "You are claiming that..."
4. Name calling
5. Arguing and taking the devil’s advocate position if it is just to flame an argument and make it continue when it has no real benefit.

It makes me think less of the person, that they don’t respect their listeners. Because of that I’m less likely to take what they say seriously.

I believe there is a need for a standard of acceptable politeness in posting. Róman’s “If you have been carried away, I will remind you that the biggest advances in Irish studies have been done by STRÓINSÉIRÍ you hate. And yes, they were NOT fluent at that moment.’ crosses a line and that hyperbole and putting words in people’s mouths is unacceptable to me. Nár agraí Dia ort é, a Rómain.

Caitríona

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Post Number: 125
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So I ask, is there a need to apply ’The standard of the board for the relevance of all posts is, as it always has been, polite and related to the Irish language’ more strictly on the politeness element of this standard? If it means we get more positive contributors here and fewer people (like myself) being afraid to post because of the tone of replies, wouldn’t it be worth it ar son na síochána? This echoes Lucy’s last question. Do we have time or tolerance for his style of communication?

Sa nuacht inniu ó Yahoo:
Verbal bullying usually involves name-calling, incessant mocking, and laughing at another's expense. Léigh faoi anseo: http://health.yahoo.com/news/60461

Nuacht eile: http://indymedia.ie/article/70897

Cá dtosnaíonn bullying? Scéal spéisiúil anseo: http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=977&viewby=date Más í an duine céanna í, bhí mé i gCareysfort leis an Caoimhe Máirtín sa scéal seo agus tá ard-mheas agam uirthi.

On differences in dialect, this one is just for fun: Bheadh na ‘fataí’ nite bruite agus ite ag an gConnachtach a fhad is a bheadh an Muimhneach ag rá ‘Prátaí.’ Vive la différance!


Tá súil agam go mbeidh turas maith ag Róman agus go bhfoghlaimeoidh sé an chaoi a labhraíonn daoine i nGaeilge. Go néirí an t-adh leat a Rómain. Bí go deas le daoine agus beidh said go deas leat.

Caitríona

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I can see him now in a local pub lecturing the "natives" on their lack of proper Irish. Hopefully, he'll survive.



That's funny and appropriate at the same time! Go raibh maith agat as an "comic relief!"

I'd like to ask a question on pub discussions, but from a different angle than stated above. That is, what would be the typical reaction, if there is such a thing, when someone enters an Irish pub in a Gaeltacht, and is permitted and politely engages in dicussions (not lectures) using the Caigheán Ofigiúil? Is there any difficulty for someone who can only speak Standard Irish in being accepted into pub conversations?

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Karhu
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Username: Karhu

Post Number: 90
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Caitriona,

I have made much more suspect contributions to the Daltaí board than Róman. Róman's comments are all on the subject of the Irish language, and his comments reflect his brimming-over enthusiasm. Lucy's comment "maybe we don't have time for Róman" is impolite in itself. We would be **lucky** if Róman made time to share his knowledge of the Munster dialect with us. I know he generously gives of his time on the TYIMunster list, which wouldn't be the same without him. I think Lucy and Cionaodh both assume that "allowing" Róman space to record his knowledge in the form of online resources would be "an accommodation", a concession in other words. Oh, really! It is hard to keep up the momentum of writing things for the net, and it is future generations of learners who would benefit if any online resources were made.

I hope the board moderator reads the following paragraph carefully: I think it is quite wrong to elevate possibly impolite wording (possibly, I said, as it could also be classed as "banter", which seems nearer the mark) into "verbal bullying". Bullying is a politically correct buzzword, as I am sure you know, which can often escalate a situation. Impolite language on a bulletin board is not legally actionable. Verbal bullying is - it can be held to be harassment in legal terms, and I don't know about US law but, if classed as harassment, would be illegal in the UK and probably in most European countries that don't have the First Amendment you have. Accusations of "verbal bullying" are also actionable - as a court may be asked to decide if the accusation itself constitutes libel. I am not suggesting a Daltaí thread is likely to end up in court, but you have introduced legally loaded words into the discussion.

Can we drop these highly emotional and legally loaded words, which appear to me to be designed to escalate the situation? I don't think Aonghus was reduced to tears, and no bullying went on.

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 315
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 04:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Mac Léinn:

That is, what would be the typical reaction, if there is such a thing, when someone enters an Irish pub in a Gaeltacht, and is permitted and politely engages in dicussions (not lectures) using the Caigheán Ofigiúil? Is there any difficulty for someone who can only speak Standard Irish in being accepted into pub conversations?

My Irish has elements of CO in it, though I try to modify my usage depending on where I am. I've always been treated well.

If the pub isn't too crowded, buy everyone a round. You'll find it's a quick ice-breaker.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Odwyer
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Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 155
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 04:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thank you, Karhu.

Ceartaígí mo chuid Ghaeilge, le bhur dtoil!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1656
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 05:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

If the pub isn't too crowded, buy everyone a round.

Is túisce deoch ná scéal!

Geobhaidh tú an seanfhocal seo in FGB faoi "túisce", agus tá scéal eile ag:

http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/228

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Taidhgín
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Username: Taidhgín

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 05:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There is a letter in the current edition of Foinse where Siobhán Uí Dhuinn describes her experience of trying to speak Irish to a shop assistant in Cárna. Siobhán is not from the Gaeltacht but speaks fluent Irish. Siobhán complains that although she spoke Irish the shop assistant continually spoke English to her in response. The conversation continued with mutual understanding using two languages. Unfortunately Siobhán had hoped to hear Irish spoken by native speakers.

As a frequent visitor to the Gaeltacht I have sympathy for both parties in this. Sometimes people are so bilingual that they are not aware which language they are using. Even in "Irish-speaking" families children reply in English to their parents who speak Irish to them. Since the relationship between them is more important than the language spoken nothing can be done. Then English has always been the language of trade in Ireland and in the Gaeltacht. Those with sufficient money to buy and run a shop may not actually be of the local community but "blow-ins". It may have been a great achievement by the shop assistant to understand the Irish spoken to her and respond as best she could in the language she knew best. Finally most families in the Gaeltacht have spent time abroad in Britain or America and not all have equal fluency in Irish. The younger generation would have much less Irish that the older.

A solution to this particular problem would be to have an "Ionad Oidhreachta" (Heritage Centre) in every Gaeltacht community where all the staff would be bilingual and well-trained in receiving visitors seeking to hear spoken Irish. There is a huge amount of Irish being spoken in all the Gaeltacht communities -- even the most peripheral -- but the casual visitor will not hear any of it. It would be easy however to organise "Oícheanta Áirneáin / Seanchais" for Irish-speaking visitors in such areas. Revive the tradition of "Céilí-ing" or "The Rambling House". I don't know have Gaelsaoire got around to organising "package visits to the Gaeltacht" but this would be a solution.

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 08:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Karhu,
Re. ‘I have made much more suspect contributions to the Daltaí board.’
You are aware then when the tone you use could be offensive? Ní thuigim. Why do you use it then?
Re. All you wrote in the last post: Ba chóir go mbeadh faitíos orm tar éis an sliocht sin a léamh. That ties into what I was saying.

The Irish way of looking at things from Daltaí proverbs:
Re arrogance -
Is í an dias is troime is ísle a chromas a cheann.
The heaviest ear of grain bends its head the lowest.

Re. Encouragement -
Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí.
Praise a youth and she will come.

Re. Truth -
Bíonn an fhírinne searbh.
The truth is bitter.

Not everyone knows what offends in another language but when people tell us, we're sorry when we realize we offended and we learn how not to offend. It's not a radical thought, it's just common decency.

Níor chuala cluas, ní fhaca rosc,
is fós níor smaoinigh croí an duine
an t-aoibhneas mór a bheidh mar stór
ag lucht na haithrí agus na dea-mhéine.


Re. Irish in the Gaeltacht
From the earliest day when I was a small child in the Gaeltacht and from my first efforts people encouraged me and no one mocked me and when I spoke with a mix of dialects and C.O. in the beginning people were impressed that I was making an effort and it made me feel good and I was never labeled or criticized but gently guided in the right direction. No wonder I loved being there.

And now for something completely different mar a deireann lucht Monty Python...

Speaking Irish in L.A.:
1. When In Hollywood recently I asked someone why they were learning Irish and they asked how to say “For fun” so I said ‘Le haghaidh an craic.’ They laughed and said they'd use it often. It took me a little while to figure out why. Tá mé mall.

2. Talking about the relationship of wars in the world (Iraq, the Congo etc.) to the presence of oil in that country, bhí daoine ag rá “Is maith an rud é nach bhfuil ola (peitreal a bhí i gceist) in Éirinn ” ach d’fhreagair duine amháin nach raibh ag éisteacht go géar, “Tá Uladh in Éirinn!”

Tirim ach true.

I’ll end with
Is binn béal ina thost.
A silent mouth is sweet.

and leave this topic as we’ll be setting a record on this thread with the amount of posts we have and

An rud a théann i bhfad,
téann sé i bhfuaire.

What drags on grows cold.



Slán a chairde.

Caitríona

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Norwegiandame
Member
Username: Norwegiandame

Post Number: 212
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Óráid thoirní eile le an Ioruais ghealt:

I would just like to say that Dennis has npt been condescending towards learners. I have always appreciated his attention and found his corrections/additions helpful. He has never ridiculed me for my mistakes or lack of comprehension. The same with Aonghus.

I can't believe the fact that a Lithuanian _learner_ of Irish can manage to act so inflated when discussing with two adults who have far more first-hand experience of Gaeilge than himself. Róman was the one who began the flaming - neither Dennis nor Aonghus would ever do that. All they've done is defend their Gaeilge against a _learner_ who professes to know all the nuances and details of Gaeilge. Dennis never told me to shut up, in fact he seems quite excited to help.

Did Aonghus grow up with Irish in his home/at school for nothing?

Gaeilge has indeed a great lot of anglicised forms, but that is only natural. Ireland was occupied by England for centuries after all. But that doesn't mean that one form that is widely used, such as "táim tuirseach", is less correct than another widely used form. By the way, I came across "bíonn sé tuirseach" in LI, chapter 9 or 10. Wonder if Róman overlooked that one.

What Róman has done is to turn people's own words against them. A premeditated maneuvre to cause spite? So far he's been manipulative and grandiose. And when confronted, he continues to play this game. The first time I've seen psychopathic behaviour on a message board.

(Message edited by norwegiandame on July 30, 2006)

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Cionaodh
Member
Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 316
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One hopes this is an entirely unrelated topic, but breakingnews.ie reports that a 24 year old Lithuanian has been stabbed to death in Dublin.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Karhu
Member
Username: Karhu

Post Number: 91
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This discussion was over a while ago, and now Catríona's post has inadvertently (?) started it all up again. There really is no need.

quote:

What Róman has done is to turn people's own words against them. A premeditated maneuvre to cause spite? So far he's been manipulative and grandiose. And when confronted, he continues to play this game. The first time I've seen psychopathic behaviour on a message board.



Oh, please! Norwegiandame you have emphasised that you are a Christian in various threads. Can you not see that this paragraph above is nasty and over-the-top? I am sure no-one has been "psychopathic" on this board. Can I assume you don't know what a psychopath is? I am quite sure Róman is not one. I would have thought you would be the first one to say, "leave him alone, this is all rather unnecessary".

This discussion was over a while ago. Catríona accidentally restarted it, but there is nothing else to say that hasn't already been said. Tá an comhrá seo thart.

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Karhu
Member
Username: Karhu

Post Number: 92
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

One hopes this is an entirely unrelated topic, but breakingnews.ie reports that a 24 year old Lithuanian has been stabbed to death in Dublin.



Is uafásach an scéal é. That is terrible news. There are many Lithuanians in Dublin, but of course we all hope it is not anyone we have ever come into contact with. But it is terrible whoever it is.



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