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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Archive through July 26, 2006 » Use of the copula: dialectal variations? « Previous Next »

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 08:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello, we have come up against an interesting question in the Cois Fhairrge Yahoo! group, which is in lesson 11 of Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish. It relates to the use of the copula with adjectives. In Learning Irish, it seems clear that only "a very few" adjectives are used with the copula, and they are discussed in Lesson 11 and 12. In Myles Dillons' TYI Munster, however, it seems there is broader use of adjectives with the copula, see the discussion in chapter X about permanent/temporary distinctions. And in an old edition of the Christian Brothers' Grammar that I have, it says that the use of tá or is with adjectives is entirely free choice, with no directions at all on a permanent/temporary distinction.

Am I right in saying that Standard Irish, Galway Irish, Munster Irish, and probably Ulster Irish, all use the copula in different ways? Can anyonee neatly summarise the differences?

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Norwegiandame
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Post Number: 191
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 09:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I can only speak for Conamara. There they use "ar" in questions, e.g: "ar cailín thú?" Lughaidh has told me that "ar" in Donegal-Irish means "were". But in Conamara-Irish it means "are/is".

That's my 5 cents.

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Lughaidh
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Post Number: 1368
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

the discussion in chapter X about permanent/temporary distinctions

You'd better trust the Christian Brothers grammar. The stuff about permanent/temporary distinctions is nonsense to me. There are many counterexamples.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Caitriona (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's a simple way of thinking about the copula:
If you are defining something, you use 'Is'
If you are describing something, you use 'Tá'.

1. Definition - Is answers the question
What is it? It is a...
You can think of 'Is' as like an equals sign (=)
Is dalta mé. Mé = dalta or 'I am a dalta.' Dalta defines me.

2. Description - answers the question
What sort of...is it? The ... is ...

Definition:Is aisteach an scéal é. It is a strange story.
Description: Tá an scéal aisteach. The story is strange.

1. Definitions use 'Is'
Present tense forms (Is, Ní, An? Nach?)

'Is' comes first when you're defining what it is.
'Is' answers Céard é sin? What is it?

Tá sé fear. Wrong. Answer with 'Is':
Is fear é. Right.

For the question "Is it a...?" use 'An?'
An bhfuil sé bosca? Wrong.
An bosca é? Is it a box? Right.

Past tense forms ( Ba, Níor, Ar? Nár?)
Contrast
Ba fhliuch an lá é. It was a wet day.(definition)
with
Bhí an lá fliuch. The day was wet. (description)

The 'Ar' question is used for the past tense.
Contrast
Ar chapall donn é? Was it a brown horse? (definition)
with
An raibh an capall donn? Was the horse brown? (description)

2. Descriptions use 'Tá'
'Tá' answers Cén sórt ... é? What sort of a .. it is?

Is fliuch é. Wrong. Answer with 'Tá':
Tá sé fliuch. Right.
Tá sé beag.
Tá sé mór.
An bhfuil sé mór? Tá.

I think O Siadhail only has two short points about the copula with adjectives at the bottom of page 50 and they seem easy enough.
One word he gives is 'ionann' which is like 'equals' so it's easy to see how it applies.
1. Is ionann iad. They are the same.
2. Exclamatory use: It's true that it's often used with emotion.

I've often heard this with emotions or opinions such as:
Nach uafásach an rud é!
Is maith an rud é!
Is olc an scéal é!
Is deas é!

But if the Christian Brothers book says that the use of 'tá' or 'is' with adjectives is entirely free choice, with no directions at all on a permanent/temporary distinction, that's confusing, I think.

I've never heard anyone say 'Is buí an leabhar é!'

I don't know if this helps you or not. I hope it does,
C

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Lughaidh
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Post Number: 1369
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 03:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Here's a simple way of thinking about the copula:
If you are defining something, you use 'Is'
If you are describing something, you use 'Tá'.


That looks right, but actually there are many counterexamples.

Is fíor sin = Tá sin fíor...
Tá an cat sin deas = Is deas an cat sin.
Bheadh sin níos fearr = B’fhearr sin.

What people have to learn, is that the copula is used to link nouns or pronouns together, and sometimes adjectives with nouns or pronouns. And tá is used to link nouns and pronouns with adjectives in most cases.

What people have to learn, is that one CANNOT use tá to link nouns or pronouns together.

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 254
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ó Siadhail expands on the copula in his book Modern Irish: Grammatical Structure and Dialectal Variation, Cambridge University Press, 1989. He gives four uses of the copula to link an adjective to a noun or pronoun:
10.3.2 Linking of nouns/pronouns and adjectives
10.3.2(i) Exclamatory use.

(49) Is maith é!
`He is (so) good!'

(50) Nach deas é!
`Isn't it nice!'

(51) Deir sé gur deas é!
`He says it's nice!'

Here we have copula + adjective + pronoun/definite noun. The range of adjectives permitted here is extremely limited. Only adjectives describing a permanent quality and expressing a subjective estimation are allowed.

Once more the `é, í, iad insertion rule' applies here. The rule operates in Munster and Connacht:

(52) Nach deas é an teach sin! (C)[Connacht]
`Isn't that house nice!'

(53) Nach maith í Bríd! (C)
`Isn't Bríd good!'

The insertion rule is not found in Donegal so (52) and (53) are realized as:

(54) Nach deas an teach sin! (Gd)[Gweedore]
(55) Nach maith Bríd! (Gd)

It is noteworthy that it is precisely this exclamatory use which is excluded in cleft sentences, as will be seen further in 10.3.5(i). Other functions, such as contrast, can be achieved by the fronting of adjectives in such circumstances...
p. 231
Later Ó Siadhail shows how you use fronting with an adjective to show contrast.
10.3.5 Use in Fronting
10.3.5(i) Cleft sentences ... It is also possible to front an adjective. The adjective in (106) is fronted in (107):

(106) Tá sé tinn.
'He is sick.'

(107) Is tinn atá sé.
'He is sick.

This fronting seems to be confined to a contrastive function and implies that 'he is sick ' - not simply tired or emotional or drunk. In a sentence such as Tá sé go deas 'It is nice' the adjective deas would hardly be fronted to give *Nach deas atá sé as this exclamatory function demands a straight copula sentence Nach deas é 'Isn't it nice!' [See 10.3.2(i)]...
pp. 236 and 237
Let us return to the other two uses of the copula to link an adjective to a noun or pronoun.
10.3.2(ii) Equational use.

(56) Is ionann an dá rud (C)
`The two things are identical'

(57) Is mar a chéile iad
`They are alike'

Once again here we have copula + adjective + pronoun/definite noun. In this case only a very few adjectives expressing equation or similarity are possible. Perhaps due to its compound nature mar a chéile (lit. like one another) may be used, in Cois Fhairrge, at least, with the substantive verb, for example: Tá siad mar a chéile. While *Tá siad ionann does not seem to be allowed, the substantive verb is the norm with the adverbial phrase ionann's `almost', for example: Tá se ionann's déanta `It is almost done'.

We might also include here the use of Is cosúil le...é, Is geall le...é `It is like...' while noting that the use of the substantive in the case of cosúil le (Tá se cosúil le... `It is like... ') is permitted.

10.3.2(iii) Comparative use.
10.3.2(iii)1 Comparative in ná construction:

(58) Is deise an seomra seo ()... (Gd)
`This room is nicer (than)...'

In this instance we have copula + comparative form of adjective + noun/pronoun. However, alongside this use of the copula we have the parallel construction employing the substantive verb:

(59) Tá an seomra seo níos deise ()...
`This room is nicer (than)...'

A noteworthy feature of the latter construction is that níos is to an extent simply a particle. Yet the fact that it is still partly in the copula system is borne out by the now largely optional form of ní ba ( `a thing' + past/ conditional relative of the copula) in sentences where the verb is either in the past or the conditional. Furthermore, where the noun is indefinite the use of the relative of the present/future of the copula is is possible, though now less frequent:

(60) Tá ceann is fearr/níos fearr ná sin agat
`You have a better one than that'

10.3.2(iii)2 Comparative qualifying noun:

(61) Tá an seomra is fearr anseo (C)
`The best room is here'

In these sentences, there is the sequence definite article + noun + comparative form of adjective. The intermediate position (i.e. between its status as the copula and as a particle) of the is is also apparent here as is may be retained even when the verb of the sentence is in the past or conditional, e.g. Bhí an seomra ab'fhearr/is fearr anseo `The best room was here'.

10.3.2(iii)3 Comparative with de:

(62) Ní fearrde thú é (C)
`You aren't the better for it'

(63) Níor dhonaide é é (C)
`He wouldn't be the worse for it'

A few comparative forms, for example fearr `better', measa, dona `worse' may add -de in this usage.
pp. 230 anmd 231.
Chapter 10 of this book is solely devoted to the use of the copula; chapter 10 is 34 pages long! I heard a paper version was printed, but I could not find in www.litriocht.com. If you think the grammar is too dense in Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish then Ó Siadhail's Irish Grammar is not for you.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Óráid_thoirní
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Post Number: 20
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are also some good practice exercises here:
http://www.lang.ltsn.ac.uk/materialsbank/mb049/

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 255
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You can get Modern Irish at amazon.com.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Post Number: 46
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I like the 'Capaill' link, Óráid_thoirní. Go raibh maith agat. I guess your example of 'Tá sin fíor,' Lughaidh, may be an example of a dialectical variantion. I'd always say 'Tá sé sin fíor.' Spéisiúil.

Caitríona

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lúcas, that was a great chunk from Ó Siadhail's Irish grammar.

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 07:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for the info. on Modern Irish too, Lúcas, ach tá sé ró-dhaor domsa!

Caitríona

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 256
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 09:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

that was a great chunk from Ó Siadhail's Irish grammar

Yes, but, I think, it was a very illuminating piece about the copula and the adjective. It is amazing how easily one can push the limits of "personal use" with respect to copyright law. All you need is a scanner and a decent OCR program.

Ar scór ar bith, I learned four uses of adjectives with the copula thanks to this exercise. Think of the nemonic EECC:
  • Exclamatory
  • Equational
  • Comparative
  • Contrast

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 257
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 09:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

tá sé ró-dhaor domsa!

Is mór an trua é, a Chaitrionasbcglobalnet, a stór.


(Message edited by lúcas on July 15, 2006)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Odwyer
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Post Number: 116
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 09:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

what's a coupula?

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Mícheál
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Post Number: 89
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Even though Daltaí na Gaeilge is a tax exempt, not for profit corporation dedicated to promoting and teaching the Irish language, we do need to be careful about how much is reproduced from copyrighted sources.

I do not believe that Lucas crossed the line, though had Lucas reproduced without the publisher's permission the entire chapter, and then continued to do the entire book, then he would have gone too far. Of course, the degree of possible infringement is open to interpretation and is determined through legal action. Short quotes with reference citations to the work quoted occur often. Ó Siadhail's work contains this note: All rights reserved. This book may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, in any form (beyond that copying permitted by Sections 107 and 108 of the US Copyright Law and except by reviewers for the public press), without written permission of the publishers. Notice how it did not say the author, but the publisher, which in this case is the Yale University Press. Even commericial enterprises affiliated with educational institutions call for ownership control.

And Lucas, as I know you know, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. As you also know, like you, I believe we should try to stretch the personal use angle as far as we can. As a law librarian I must adhere to copyright law, but at the same time, I advocate open access to information.

And thanks too, Lucas, for the mnemonic EECC. I have another for the irregular verbs: abbccdffitt. It may not look as pretty as EECC but it does the job for me.

abair
beir

clois
cluin
déan
faigh
feic
ith
tabhair
tar
téigh

Maidhc

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Mac Léinn (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

what's a coupula?



Did you mean to say "what's a copula?" If so, here's a link that may be helpful, although I risk condemnation from some for referencing Wikipedia .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copula

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caitriona (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 01:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi O’Dwyer,
The copula or in Irish An Chopail is the term for the form of the verb ‘to be’ we use when
1. defining what something is (an answer to the question ‘What is it?’),
2. expressing or exclaiming an opinion or emotion (such as ‘It’s good, It’s bad, It’s wonderful’ etc.),
3. when comparing or contrasting things ( Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin),
The copula is usally seen in the form ‘Is...é’
Example: Is fear é. "It is a man."

Basically there are times when you should use
‘Is...é’. for ‘It is...’ and other times when you should use
‘Tá sé ...’ for ‘It is...’
The ‘Is ...é’ form of the verb ‘To be’ is usually used when you defining something ( an answer to ‘What is it?”)
The ‘Tá sé ..’ form of the verb ‘To be’ is usually used when you are describing something (an answer to What sort of ...is it?)

Here are some more definitions of the copula online although the Irish copula is not the same as the copula in other languages and while there may be a temptation to compare it to the two forms of ‘to be’ in Spanish, ser and estar, that’s probably not the best way to go. Lúcas summarized its use better using extracts from ‘Modern Irish’:
· Exclamatory
· Equational
· Comparative
· Contrast

Definitions
http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsACopula.htm

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/copula?view=uk

This is from Irish syntax:
'One aspect of Irish syntax that is unfamiliar to speakers of other languages is the use of the copula (known in Irish as an chopail). The copula is used to describe what or who someone is, as opposed to how and where. This has been likened to the difference between the verbs ser and estar in Spanish and Portuguese.'
If you must associate it with ser and estar then ser is like ‘Is’ and estar is like ‘Tá’ although this is only a rough approximation.
`Hope this helps,
C

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 06:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

UK libraries have a rule of thumb for copyright: you can copy one chapter or 5% of a book; no more. This is not enshrined in law, just the recommendation of the library association.

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Wee_falorie_man
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Post Number: 55
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Caitriona,
Thanks for explaining everything about the copula in Irish. Now I think I understand when to use "Is ... é" and when to use "Tá sé ... "

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Harrison
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Post Number: 35
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Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 03:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

People mentioned that you use "is" for comparing. An example given was "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin". Is it possible to say "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." Does the first sentence have a different meaning than the second? Does the second make sense but just isnt used in that manner?

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 08:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

My pleasure Wee Falorie Man. It's good to be back. Thank you for your comment in the whole U2 translation thing. I think so too.

Hi Harrison,
Both make sense. Yes it's possible to say "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." and "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin".
In "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin" you are expressing an opinion and comparing and that allows you to use 'Is' but this is an option and you can just as well use 'Tá' as you did in "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." Both sentences mean 'This one is better than that one.'

The copula can be used to emphasize a certain part of a sentence. The information to be emphasized is placed at the start of the sentence immediately after the copula.
Example:
Chuaigh Seán amach. Seán went out.
Is é Seán a chuaigh amach. 'Tis Seán that went out.

So with
"Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin."
This one is better than that one.

you're starting with 'This one is..' and could be emphasizing this.
With
"Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin"., it translates more literally as
''Tis better, this one than that one.' so with the position of 'Is fearr' in the sentence you could be emphasizing the superiority factor.

Basically though both sentences amount to the same thing.

With the defintion or description question you have no choice.
Cad é sin? Is bosca é.
Cén sort bosca? Tá sé mór.

Here are some other uses of the copula:
1. Use of the copula with 'le' is to indicate ownership.
An leatsa é?
Is liomsa é.

2. The verbs 'to remember' and 'to wish' also use 'Is'
Is cuimhin liom...
Is mian liom...

That's all I have for now,
C

Caitríona

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 258
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

"Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin" you are expressing an opinion and comparing and that allows you to use 'Is'

I could not agree more, a Chaitríona.

However, you also use a form of is,
níos fearr = + is + fearr
Literally: a thing that is better.
in the other sentence,
Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin
Lit.
Is this one a thing that is better than that one
This one is better than that one.
The word indicates that it is only one thing that is better, i.e., it distiguishes the comparative form of the adjective (better than one thing) from the superlative form of the adjective (better than everything or best).
Is é an ceann seo an ceann is fearr.
Lit.
Is it this one the one that is better [implying than all the rest]
This one is the best one.
We have to rely on context of the copula sentence to realize that the sentence below is a comparative sentence (not to be confused with a comparative adjective).
Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin
Lit.
Is better this one than that one
This one is better than that one.
The fact that copula is used in both the comparative and superlative forms of the adjective becomes evident when we realise that
is fearr
Lit.
that is better
is used in both cases as a relative clause. As a relative clause, it must agree with the tense of the main clause. In other words, suppose I want to say
This one was better than that one
The verb in the main clause becomes bhi, the past tense of , while the verb in the relative clause becomes ba, the past tense of is.
Bhí an ceann seo ní b'fhearr ná an ceann sin
Recall that ba causes the word that follows it to be leinited. So the present tense
níos fearr
becomes the past tense
ní b'fhearr = + ba + fearr
Lit.
a thing that was better
Similarly, the present tense
Is é an ceann seo an ceann is fearr.
becomes
Ba é an ceann seo an ceann b'fhearr.
in the past tense.

(Message edited by lúcas on July 17, 2006)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Post Number: 55
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 01:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I never saw 'níos fearr' broken down before. It makes sense. 'Guess I will have to get my hands on Modern Irish. That was interesting Lúcas. Bhuel, tá mo bhreithlá ag teacht ar aon nós. Hmmm Turas go Washington D.C. nó Modern Irish? Turas, leabhar, turas, leabhar...? Aaaagh! Meas tú an mbeidh sé sa leabharlann roimh i bhfad?

Caitríona

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 259
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 05:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chaitriona, a chara,

Bí curamach, a stór,

Ó Siadhail wrote Modern Irish for linguists. As you can see in the Table of Contents, the book, like Ceasar's Gaul, it is divided into three parts. The first part is about Irish phonology. The second part is an overview of Irish morphology. It is from the third part on Irish syntax that I quoted all the stuff above about the copula.

I found Modern Irish so dense with jargon, that I bought two other books just to penetrate it. One was an introductions to linguistics. I did not know the difference between phonology and morphology. I still struggle to understand the difference between phonology and phonetics.

The section in Modern Irish on phonology builds on an earlier work on Irish phonetics written by Ó Siadhaill and Arndt Wigger, Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge: Na Canúnintí agus an Caighdéan, Institiúid Ard-Léinn, 1975. You will be hard pressed to find a word of English in its 190 pages.

So, the acquisition of Modern Irish proved to be quite an expensive proposition for me. On the plus side, however, I think it will give me a life-time of interesting reading.

On the other hand, D.C. might be a little hot right now, but the Smithsonian is way cool.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Post Number: 57
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 05:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Lúcas a chara,
Tá suim agam i linguistics freisin. Meas tú an mbeidh uair ann sa todhcaí nuair a bheidh rud éigin ar an idirlíon cosúil leis seo i nGaeilge?: http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/english/frameset.html

Caitríona

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 07:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Phonetics is about the exact sounds that are used in a language. Phonology is about the sound system in a language.

For example, phonetically speaking, British English has a number of possible r's:

/ɹ/ - an upturned r, which is the normal English r
/r/ - a Spanish style r used in Scotland and Northern England
/ʀ/ - a French-style r, used in the Northumbrian burr

So, phonetically, you can have a very narrow transcription that finds that many sounds have many allophones.

But, phonology looks at the sound system, not the sounds in themselves - the differences between the different r's don't make any difference, unless they can be shown to effect the vowels around them differently.

When Ó Siadhail transcribes the bh in bhéal, as he does on the pull out sheet at the back of Learning Irish, as w', this is not phonetically accurate: it is not pronounced as a w, and it is not clear what a palatalised w would even sound like. But: within the sound system as it works in the context of Irish grammar, the slender bh sound in bhéal is the slender equivalent of the broad bh sound in Bhairbre, and so a phonological, rather than a phonetic, transcription allows the bh in bhéal to be represented as w'.

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 08:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We're far from your original question now, David. Did you get any sort of a satisfactory answer to it? Are there variations? The only difference I saw here was the 'Tá sin fíor' and 'Tá sé sin fíor' difference and that's not really the copula. Were there differences on your Cois Fharraige group discussion?

Caitríona

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 394
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I really liked the descriptions here by Caitriona and Lucas. It makes more sense now. I appreciate how much time the clever and experienced ones are willing to give for the beginners and those with little experience.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks for the kind words Riona but I'm always impressed by the students here. It does my heart good. The link suggested by Óráid_thoirní
http://www.lang.ltsn.ac.uk/materialsbank/mb049/
is a great one. I'm enjoying it. I guess we're all experienced and clever in some things and we all can learn more here and from each other.

Caitríona

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Caitríóna, no there was no real satisfactory answer to my original question. If you look at chapter X of Myles Dillons' Learning Irish, he emphasises that using either tá or "is" with adjectives is based on a temporary/permanent distinction in meaning. I have been unable to find out if this is just an inaccurate explanation, or something that applies only to Munster dialect.

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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
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Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet

Post Number: 62
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah, I was afraid that was the case. Although reading back we have some variation in all that was written above. Lúcas has the difference of
"Once more the `é, í, iad insertion rule' applies ... in Munster and Connacht:...

Nach deas é an teach sin! (C)[Connacht]
`Isn't that house nice!'

[But]

The insertion rule is not found in Donegal so ...

... Nach deas an teach sin! (Gd)[Gweedore]
... Nach maith Bríd! (Gd)"


I'm afraid I don't have Myles Dillons' Learning Irish. I'll have to get my hands on that book too. It will take a little time then. I'll get back to you when I can. Maybe someone else with the book can take this up in the meantime?

Caitríona

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 260
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chaitriona, a chara,

Míle buíochas díot fán shuíomh sin fá dtaobh de fuaimeanna an tSasanaigh. Is ardsmaoineamh ceann Gaeilge le déanamh é, ach is mór an trua é nach bhfuil Flash agus fuaimeanna agam nó dhéanfainn féin é.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 261
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Riona, a chara,

You are very welcome, but I must admit an ulterior motive for spending the time. As a first year teacher, I have discovered that if you really want to learn something, try teaching it. Catriona is right. It is wonderful how much we all learn from each other. Now if only we could satisfactorily answer David's original query.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 275
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Caitrionasbcglogalnet:
I'm afraid I don't have Myles Dillons' Learning Irish. I'll have to get my hands on that book too. It will take a little time then.

It's out of print -- the last edition was in the 1980s.
You may find it on http://www.abebooks.net, but search for it under the title Teach Yourself Irish ("Learning Irish" was by Mícheál Ó Siadhail).

TYI was re-released in the 1990s by Diarmuid Ó Sé & Joseph Shiels -- that is a VERY different version, so be sure the one you get is by Myles Dillon & Donncha Ó Cróinín.

You might try the ABEbooks search using "Irish" in the title field and "Myles Dillon" in the author field (they sometimes omit poor Donncha Ó Cróinín from the author entry, and the book cover actually only says "Irish").

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1611
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Re: Teach Yourself Irish le Dillon & Ó Cróinín:

Cé chomh fada agus a mhaireann cóipcheart san Aontas Eorpach? Tá cóip den sean-TYI agam a deir:

Copyright (c) 1961
The English Universities Press Ltd.


Bheadh sé réasúnta éasca agus réasúnta saor cóipeanna a dhéanamh den leabhar iomlán.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis, I can't yet answer your question in Irish, but the answer is that the book is in copyright. One can understand the original reason for copyright, but it has spiralled out of all control. I know it is scarcely believable, but copyright in the EU runs out, get this, 70 years after the death of the author!!! Is that really necessary? And shouldn't it be rather dated from the date of publication? It is all rather counterproductive as far as the increase in human knowledge iis concerned.

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

See http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarjala/OpposingCopyrightExtension/legmats/Harmon izationChartDSK.html

Myles Dillon, born 1900, died in 1972. As this was a joint authorship, copyright expires 70 years after the death of the last one to die, and I don't know anything abouot Donncha O croinin

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1614
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sin deireadh leis an smaoineamh sin! Tá Donncha Ó Cróinín beo fós, bail ó Dhia air! Tá sé i gceannas ar an sár-suíomh Acmhainn.ie.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK. None of us will be alive when the TYI book finally exits copyright! How ridicuous it that!

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 397
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I see the need for copyright of course. But it can't hurt to write down bits of a book here for the benefit of learners. I won't tell if you won't you know. It is not like the authors of these books are sitting in the dark corners of Daltai waiting for someone to use parts of their books.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Cionaodh
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Username: Cionaodh

Post Number: 276
Registered: 05-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhonncha -- an raibh an Ó Cróinín sin fásta i 1961?

Chonaic mé a ghriangraf cúpla bliain ó shin, agus mheas mé go raibh an fear sin i mheánaois fós.

http://www.gaeilge.org

FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1615
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hmmm. Dá mbeadh sé 25 sa bhliain 1961, bheadh sé 70 inniu. Bheadh sé i mbarr a réime fós! Ach níl mé céad faoin gcéad cinnte gurb é an duine céanna atá ann.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!



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