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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 08:38 am: |
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Hello, we have come up against an interesting question in the Cois Fhairrge Yahoo! group, which is in lesson 11 of Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish. It relates to the use of the copula with adjectives. In Learning Irish, it seems clear that only "a very few" adjectives are used with the copula, and they are discussed in Lesson 11 and 12. In Myles Dillons' TYI Munster, however, it seems there is broader use of adjectives with the copula, see the discussion in chapter X about permanent/temporary distinctions. And in an old edition of the Christian Brothers' Grammar that I have, it says that the use of tá or is with adjectives is entirely free choice, with no directions at all on a permanent/temporary distinction. Am I right in saying that Standard Irish, Galway Irish, Munster Irish, and probably Ulster Irish, all use the copula in different ways? Can anyonee neatly summarise the differences? |
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Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 191 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 09:52 am: |
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I can only speak for Conamara. There they use "ar" in questions, e.g: "ar cailín thú?" Lughaidh has told me that "ar" in Donegal-Irish means "were". But in Conamara-Irish it means "are/is". That's my 5 cents. |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1368 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:00 am: |
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the discussion in chapter X about permanent/temporary distinctions You'd better trust the Christian Brothers grammar. The stuff about permanent/temporary distinctions is nonsense to me. There are many counterexamples. Tír Chonaill abú!
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Caitriona (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:09 pm: |
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Here's a simple way of thinking about the copula: If you are defining something, you use 'Is' If you are describing something, you use 'Tá'. 1. Definition - Is answers the question What is it? It is a... You can think of 'Is' as like an equals sign (=) Is dalta mé. Mé = dalta or 'I am a dalta.' Dalta defines me. 2. Description - Tá answers the question What sort of...is it? The ... is ... Definition:Is aisteach an scéal é. It is a strange story. Description: Tá an scéal aisteach. The story is strange. 1. Definitions use 'Is' Present tense forms (Is, Ní, An? Nach?) 'Is' comes first when you're defining what it is. 'Is' answers Céard é sin? What is it? Tá sé fear. Wrong. Answer with 'Is': Is fear é. Right. For the question "Is it a...?" use 'An?' An bhfuil sé bosca? Wrong. An bosca é? Is it a box? Right. Past tense forms ( Ba, Níor, Ar? Nár?) Contrast Ba fhliuch an lá é. It was a wet day.(definition) with Bhí an lá fliuch. The day was wet. (description) The 'Ar' question is used for the past tense. Contrast Ar chapall donn é? Was it a brown horse? (definition) with An raibh an capall donn? Was the horse brown? (description) 2. Descriptions use 'Tá' 'Tá' answers Cén sórt ... é? What sort of a .. it is? Is fliuch é. Wrong. Answer with 'Tá': Tá sé fliuch. Right. Tá sé beag. Tá sé mór. An bhfuil sé mór? Tá. I think O Siadhail only has two short points about the copula with adjectives at the bottom of page 50 and they seem easy enough. One word he gives is 'ionann' which is like 'equals' so it's easy to see how it applies. 1. Is ionann iad. They are the same. 2. Exclamatory use: It's true that it's often used with emotion. I've often heard this with emotions or opinions such as: Nach uafásach an rud é! Is maith an rud é! Is olc an scéal é! Is deas é! But if the Christian Brothers book says that the use of 'tá' or 'is' with adjectives is entirely free choice, with no directions at all on a permanent/temporary distinction, that's confusing, I think. I've never heard anyone say 'Is buí an leabhar é!' I don't know if this helps you or not. I hope it does, C |
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Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 1369 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 03:40 am: |
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Here's a simple way of thinking about the copula: If you are defining something, you use 'Is' If you are describing something, you use 'Tá'. That looks right, but actually there are many counterexamples. Is fíor sin = Tá sin fíor... Tá an cat sin deas = Is deas an cat sin. Bheadh sin níos fearr = B’fhearr sin. What people have to learn, is that the copula is used to link nouns or pronouns together, and sometimes adjectives with nouns or pronouns. And tá is used to link nouns and pronouns with adjectives in most cases. What people have to learn, is that one CANNOT use tá to link nouns or pronouns together. Tír Chonaill abú!
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 254 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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Ó Siadhail expands on the copula in his book Modern Irish: Grammatical Structure and Dialectal Variation, Cambridge University Press, 1989. He gives four uses of the copula to link an adjective to a noun or pronoun: 10.3.2 Linking of nouns/pronouns and adjectives 10.3.2(i) Exclamatory use. (49) Is maith é! `He is (so) good!' (50) Nach deas é! `Isn't it nice!' (51) Deir sé gur deas é! `He says it's nice!' Here we have copula + adjective + pronoun/definite noun. The range of adjectives permitted here is extremely limited. Only adjectives describing a permanent quality and expressing a subjective estimation are allowed. Once more the `é, í, iad insertion rule' applies here. The rule operates in Munster and Connacht: (52) Nach deas é an teach sin! (C)[Connacht] `Isn't that house nice!' (53) Nach maith í Bríd! (C) `Isn't Bríd good!' The insertion rule is not found in Donegal so (52) and (53) are realized as: (54) Nach deas an teach sin! (Gd)[Gweedore] (55) Nach maith Bríd! (Gd) It is noteworthy that it is precisely this exclamatory use which is excluded in cleft sentences, as will be seen further in 10.3.5(i). Other functions, such as contrast, can be achieved by the fronting of adjectives in such circumstances... p. 231 Later Ó Siadhail shows how you use fronting with an adjective to show contrast. 10.3.5 Use in Fronting 10.3.5(i) Cleft sentences ... It is also possible to front an adjective. The adjective in (106) is fronted in (107): (106) Tá sé tinn. 'He is sick.' (107) Is tinn atá sé. 'He is sick. This fronting seems to be confined to a contrastive function and implies that 'he is sick ' - not simply tired or emotional or drunk. In a sentence such as Tá sé go deas 'It is nice' the adjective deas would hardly be fronted to give *Nach deas atá sé as this exclamatory function demands a straight copula sentence Nach deas é 'Isn't it nice!' [See 10.3.2(i)]... pp. 236 and 237 Let us return to the other two uses of the copula to link an adjective to a noun or pronoun. 10.3.2(ii) Equational use. (56) Is ionann an dá rud (C) `The two things are identical' (57) Is mar a chéile iad `They are alike' Once again here we have copula + adjective + pronoun/definite noun. In this case only a very few adjectives expressing equation or similarity are possible. Perhaps due to its compound nature mar a chéile (lit. like one another) may be used, in Cois Fhairrge, at least, with the substantive verb, for example: Tá siad mar a chéile. While *Tá siad ionann does not seem to be allowed, the substantive verb is the norm with the adverbial phrase ionann's `almost', for example: Tá se ionann's déanta `It is almost done'. We might also include here the use of Is cosúil le...é, Is geall le...é `It is like...' while noting that the use of the substantive in the case of cosúil le (Tá se cosúil le... `It is like... ') is permitted. 10.3.2(iii) Comparative use. 10.3.2(iii)1 Comparative in ná construction: (58) Is deise an seomra seo (ná)... (Gd) `This room is nicer (than)...' In this instance we have copula + comparative form of adjective + noun/pronoun. However, alongside this use of the copula we have the parallel construction employing the substantive verb: (59) Tá an seomra seo níos deise (ná)... `This room is nicer (than)...' A noteworthy feature of the latter construction is that níos is to an extent simply a particle. Yet the fact that it is still partly in the copula system is borne out by the now largely optional form of ní ba (ní `a thing' + past/ conditional relative of the copula) in sentences where the verb is either in the past or the conditional. Furthermore, where the noun is indefinite the use of the relative of the present/future of the copula is is possible, though now less frequent: (60) Tá ceann is fearr/níos fearr ná sin agat `You have a better one than that' 10.3.2(iii)2 Comparative qualifying noun: (61) Tá an seomra is fearr anseo (C) `The best room is here' In these sentences, there is the sequence definite article + noun + comparative form of adjective. The intermediate position (i.e. between its status as the copula and as a particle) of the is is also apparent here as is may be retained even when the verb of the sentence is in the past or conditional, e.g. Bhí an seomra ab'fhearr/is fearr anseo `The best room was here'. 10.3.2(iii)3 Comparative with de: (62) Ní fearrde thú é (C) `You aren't the better for it' (63) Níor dhonaide é é (C) `He wouldn't be the worse for it' A few comparative forms, for example fearr `better', measa, dona `worse' may add -de in this usage.
pp. 230 anmd 231. Chapter 10 of this book is solely devoted to the use of the copula; chapter 10 is 34 pages long! I heard a paper version was printed, but I could not find in www.litriocht.com. If you think the grammar is too dense in Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish then Ó Siadhail's Irish Grammar is not for you. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Óráid_thoirní
Member Username: Óráid_thoirní
Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 02:11 pm: |
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There are also some good practice exercises here: http://www.lang.ltsn.ac.uk/materialsbank/mb049/ FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 255 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:37 pm: |
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You can get Modern Irish at amazon.com. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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I like the 'Capaill' link, Óráid_thoirní. Go raibh maith agat. I guess your example of 'Tá sin fíor,' Lughaidh, may be an example of a dialectical variantion. I'd always say 'Tá sé sin fíor.' Spéisiúil. Caitríona
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
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Lúcas, that was a great chunk from Ó Siadhail's Irish grammar. |
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 07:56 pm: |
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Thanks for the info. on Modern Irish too, Lúcas, ach tá sé ró-dhaor domsa! Caitríona
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 256 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 09:10 pm: |
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quote:that was a great chunk from Ó Siadhail's Irish grammar Yes, but, I think, it was a very illuminating piece about the copula and the adjective. It is amazing how easily one can push the limits of "personal use" with respect to copyright law. All you need is a scanner and a decent OCR program. Ar scór ar bith, I learned four uses of adjectives with the copula thanks to this exercise. Think of the nemonic EECC: - Exclamatory
- Equational
- Comparative
- Contrast
Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 257 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 09:14 pm: |
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quote:tá sé ró-dhaor domsa! Is mór an trua é, a Chaitrionasbcglobalnet, a stór. (Message edited by lúcas on July 15, 2006) Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Odwyer
Member Username: Odwyer
Post Number: 116 Registered: 05-2006
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 09:43 pm: |
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what's a coupula? |
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Mícheál
Member Username: Mícheál
Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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Even though Daltaí na Gaeilge is a tax exempt, not for profit corporation dedicated to promoting and teaching the Irish language, we do need to be careful about how much is reproduced from copyrighted sources. I do not believe that Lucas crossed the line, though had Lucas reproduced without the publisher's permission the entire chapter, and then continued to do the entire book, then he would have gone too far. Of course, the degree of possible infringement is open to interpretation and is determined through legal action. Short quotes with reference citations to the work quoted occur often. Ó Siadhail's work contains this note: All rights reserved. This book may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, in any form (beyond that copying permitted by Sections 107 and 108 of the US Copyright Law and except by reviewers for the public press), without written permission of the publishers. Notice how it did not say the author, but the publisher, which in this case is the Yale University Press. Even commericial enterprises affiliated with educational institutions call for ownership control. And Lucas, as I know you know, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. As you also know, like you, I believe we should try to stretch the personal use angle as far as we can. As a law librarian I must adhere to copyright law, but at the same time, I advocate open access to information. And thanks too, Lucas, for the mnemonic EECC. I have another for the irregular verbs: abbccdffitt. It may not look as pretty as EECC but it does the job for me. abair beir bí clois cluin déan faigh feic ith tabhair tar téigh Maidhc |
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Mac Léinn (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:26 pm: |
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quote:what's a coupula? Did you mean to say "what's a copula?" If so, here's a link that may be helpful, although I risk condemnation from some for referencing Wikipedia . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copula |
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caitriona (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 01:08 am: |
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Hi O’Dwyer, The copula or in Irish An Chopail is the term for the form of the verb ‘to be’ we use when 1. defining what something is (an answer to the question ‘What is it?’), 2. expressing or exclaiming an opinion or emotion (such as ‘It’s good, It’s bad, It’s wonderful’ etc.), 3. when comparing or contrasting things ( Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin), The copula is usally seen in the form ‘Is...é’ Example: Is fear é. "It is a man." Basically there are times when you should use ‘Is...é’. for ‘It is...’ and other times when you should use ‘Tá sé ...’ for ‘It is...’ The ‘Is ...é’ form of the verb ‘To be’ is usually used when you defining something ( an answer to ‘What is it?”) The ‘Tá sé ..’ form of the verb ‘To be’ is usually used when you are describing something (an answer to What sort of ...is it?) Here are some more definitions of the copula online although the Irish copula is not the same as the copula in other languages and while there may be a temptation to compare it to the two forms of ‘to be’ in Spanish, ser and estar, that’s probably not the best way to go. Lúcas summarized its use better using extracts from ‘Modern Irish’: · Exclamatory · Equational · Comparative · Contrast Definitions http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsACopula.htm http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/copula?view=uk This is from Irish syntax: 'One aspect of Irish syntax that is unfamiliar to speakers of other languages is the use of the copula (known in Irish as an chopail). The copula is used to describe what or who someone is, as opposed to how and where. This has been likened to the difference between the verbs ser and estar in Spanish and Portuguese.' If you must associate it with ser and estar then ser is like ‘Is’ and estar is like ‘Tá’ although this is only a rough approximation. `Hope this helps, C |
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 06:31 am: |
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UK libraries have a rule of thumb for copyright: you can copy one chapter or 5% of a book; no more. This is not enshrined in law, just the recommendation of the library association. |
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Wee_falorie_man
Member Username: Wee_falorie_man
Post Number: 55 Registered: 04-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 12:48 pm: |
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Caitriona, Thanks for explaining everything about the copula in Irish. Now I think I understand when to use "Is ... é" and when to use "Tá sé ... " |
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Harrison
Member Username: Harrison
Post Number: 35 Registered: 04-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 03:11 pm: |
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People mentioned that you use "is" for comparing. An example given was "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin". Is it possible to say "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." Does the first sentence have a different meaning than the second? Does the second make sense but just isnt used in that manner? |
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 08:56 pm: |
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My pleasure Wee Falorie Man. It's good to be back. Thank you for your comment in the whole U2 translation thing. I think so too. Hi Harrison, Both make sense. Yes it's possible to say "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." and "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin". In "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin" you are expressing an opinion and comparing and that allows you to use 'Is' but this is an option and you can just as well use 'Tá' as you did in "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." Both sentences mean 'This one is better than that one.' The copula can be used to emphasize a certain part of a sentence. The information to be emphasized is placed at the start of the sentence immediately after the copula. Example: Chuaigh Seán amach. Seán went out. Is é Seán a chuaigh amach. 'Tis Seán that went out. So with "Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin." This one is better than that one. you're starting with 'This one is..' and could be emphasizing this. With "Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin"., it translates more literally as ''Tis better, this one than that one.' so with the position of 'Is fearr' in the sentence you could be emphasizing the superiority factor. Basically though both sentences amount to the same thing. With the defintion or description question you have no choice. Cad é sin? Is bosca é. Cén sort bosca? Tá sé mór. Here are some other uses of the copula: 1. Use of the copula with 'le' is to indicate ownership. An leatsa é? Is liomsa é. 2. The verbs 'to remember' and 'to wish' also use 'Is' Is cuimhin liom... Is mian liom... That's all I have for now, C Caitríona
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 258 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:12 am: |
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quote:"Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin" you are expressing an opinion and comparing and that allows you to use 'Is' I could not agree more, a Chaitríona. However, you also use a form of is, níos fearr = ní + is + fearr Literally: a thing that is better. in the other sentence, Tá an ceann seo níos fearr ná an ceann sin Lit.Is this one a thing that is better than that one This one is better than that one. The word ní indicates that it is only one thing that is better, i.e., it distiguishes the comparative form of the adjective (better than one thing) from the superlative form of the adjective (better than everything or best). Is é an ceann seo an ceann is fearr. Lit.Is it this one the one that is better [implying than all the rest] This one is the best one. We have to rely on context of the copula sentence to realize that the sentence below is a comparative sentence (not to be confused with a comparative adjective). Is fearr an ceann seo ná an ceann sin Lit.Is better this one than that one This one is better than that one. The fact that copula is used in both the comparative and superlative forms of the adjective becomes evident when we realise that is fearr Lit.that is better is used in both cases as a relative clause. As a relative clause, it must agree with the tense of the main clause. In other words, suppose I want to say This one was better than that one The verb in the main clause becomes bhi, the past tense of tá, while the verb in the relative clause becomes ba, the past tense of is. Bhí an ceann seo ní b'fhearr ná an ceann sin Recall that ba causes the word that follows it to be leinited. So the present tense níos fearr becomes the past tense ní b'fhearr = ní + ba + fearr Lit. a thing that was better Similarly, the present tense Is é an ceann seo an ceann is fearr. becomes Ba é an ceann seo an ceann b'fhearr. in the past tense. (Message edited by lúcas on July 17, 2006) Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 01:12 pm: |
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I never saw 'níos fearr' broken down before. It makes sense. 'Guess I will have to get my hands on Modern Irish. That was interesting Lúcas. Bhuel, tá mo bhreithlá ag teacht ar aon nós. Hmmm Turas go Washington D.C. nó Modern Irish? Turas, leabhar, turas, leabhar...? Aaaagh! Meas tú an mbeidh sé sa leabharlann roimh i bhfad? Caitríona
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 259 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 05:17 pm: |
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A Chaitriona, a chara, Bí curamach, a stór, Ó Siadhail wrote Modern Irish for linguists. As you can see in the Table of Contents, the book, like Ceasar's Gaul, it is divided into three parts. The first part is about Irish phonology. The second part is an overview of Irish morphology. It is from the third part on Irish syntax that I quoted all the stuff above about the copula. I found Modern Irish so dense with jargon, that I bought two other books just to penetrate it. One was an introductions to linguistics. I did not know the difference between phonology and morphology. I still struggle to understand the difference between phonology and phonetics. The section in Modern Irish on phonology builds on an earlier work on Irish phonetics written by Ó Siadhaill and Arndt Wigger, Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge: Na Canúnintí agus an Caighdéan, Institiúid Ard-Léinn, 1975. You will be hard pressed to find a word of English in its 190 pages. So, the acquisition of Modern Irish proved to be quite an expensive proposition for me. On the plus side, however, I think it will give me a life-time of interesting reading. On the other hand, D.C. might be a little hot right now, but the Smithsonian is way cool. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 05:42 pm: |
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Lúcas a chara, Tá suim agam i linguistics freisin. Meas tú an mbeidh uair ann sa todhcaí nuair a bheidh rud éigin ar an idirlíon cosúil leis seo i nGaeilge?: http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/english/frameset.html Caitríona
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 07:36 pm: |
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Phonetics is about the exact sounds that are used in a language. Phonology is about the sound system in a language. For example, phonetically speaking, British English has a number of possible r's: /ɹ/ - an upturned r, which is the normal English r /r/ - a Spanish style r used in Scotland and Northern England /ʀ/ - a French-style r, used in the Northumbrian burr So, phonetically, you can have a very narrow transcription that finds that many sounds have many allophones. But, phonology looks at the sound system, not the sounds in themselves - the differences between the different r's don't make any difference, unless they can be shown to effect the vowels around them differently. When Ó Siadhail transcribes the bh in bhéal, as he does on the pull out sheet at the back of Learning Irish, as w', this is not phonetically accurate: it is not pronounced as a w, and it is not clear what a palatalised w would even sound like. But: within the sound system as it works in the context of Irish grammar, the slender bh sound in bhéal is the slender equivalent of the broad bh sound in Bhairbre, and so a phonological, rather than a phonetic, transcription allows the bh in bhéal to be represented as w'. |
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 08:19 pm: |
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We're far from your original question now, David. Did you get any sort of a satisfactory answer to it? Are there variations? The only difference I saw here was the 'Tá sin fíor' and 'Tá sé sin fíor' difference and that's not really the copula. Were there differences on your Cois Fharraige group discussion? Caitríona
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 394 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:13 am: |
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I really liked the descriptions here by Caitriona and Lucas. It makes more sense now. I appreciate how much time the clever and experienced ones are willing to give for the beginners and those with little experience. Beir bua agus beannacht |
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:39 am: |
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Thanks for the kind words Riona but I'm always impressed by the students here. It does my heart good. The link suggested by Óráid_thoirní http://www.lang.ltsn.ac.uk/materialsbank/mb049/ is a great one. I'm enjoying it. I guess we're all experienced and clever in some things and we all can learn more here and from each other. Caitríona
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:30 am: |
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Caitríóna, no there was no real satisfactory answer to my original question. If you look at chapter X of Myles Dillons' Learning Irish, he emphasises that using either tá or "is" with adjectives is based on a temporary/permanent distinction in meaning. I have been unable to find out if this is just an inaccurate explanation, or something that applies only to Munster dialect. |
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Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Member Username: Caitrionasbcglobalnet
Post Number: 62 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:39 am: |
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Ah, I was afraid that was the case. Although reading back we have some variation in all that was written above. Lúcas has the difference of "Once more the `é, í, iad insertion rule' applies ... in Munster and Connacht:... Nach deas é an teach sin! (C)[Connacht] `Isn't that house nice!' [But] The insertion rule is not found in Donegal so ... ... Nach deas an teach sin! (Gd)[Gweedore] ... Nach maith Bríd! (Gd)" I'm afraid I don't have Myles Dillons' Learning Irish. I'll have to get my hands on that book too. It will take a little time then. I'll get back to you when I can. Maybe someone else with the book can take this up in the meantime? Caitríona
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 260 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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A Chaitriona, a chara, Míle buíochas díot fán shuíomh sin fá dtaobh de fuaimeanna an tSasanaigh. Is ardsmaoineamh ceann Gaeilge le déanamh é, ach is mór an trua é nach bhfuil Flash agus fuaimeanna agam nó dhéanfainn féin é. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Lúcas
Member Username: Lúcas
Post Number: 261 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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A Riona, a chara, You are very welcome, but I must admit an ulterior motive for spending the time. As a first year teacher, I have discovered that if you really want to learn something, try teaching it. Catriona is right. It is wonderful how much we all learn from each other. Now if only we could satisfactorily answer David's original query. Mise le meas, Lúcas Ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge, mura miste leat .
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Cionaodh
Member Username: Cionaodh
Post Number: 275 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:44 pm: |
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Scríobh Caitrionasbcglogalnet: I'm afraid I don't have Myles Dillons' Learning Irish. I'll have to get my hands on that book too. It will take a little time then. It's out of print -- the last edition was in the 1980s. You may find it on http://www.abebooks.net, but search for it under the title Teach Yourself Irish ("Learning Irish" was by Mícheál Ó Siadhail). TYI was re-released in the 1990s by Diarmuid Ó Sé & Joseph Shiels -- that is a VERY different version, so be sure the one you get is by Myles Dillon & Donncha Ó Cróinín. You might try the ABEbooks search using "Irish" in the title field and "Myles Dillon" in the author field (they sometimes omit poor Donncha Ó Cróinín from the author entry, and the book cover actually only says "Irish"). http://www.gaeilge.org FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1611 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:00 pm: |
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Re: Teach Yourself Irish le Dillon & Ó Cróinín: Cé chomh fada agus a mhaireann cóipcheart san Aontas Eorpach? Tá cóip den sean-TYI agam a deir:
Copyright (c) 1961 The English Universities Press Ltd. Bheadh sé réasúnta éasca agus réasúnta saor cóipeanna a dhéanamh den leabhar iomlán. Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:57 pm: |
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Dennis, I can't yet answer your question in Irish, but the answer is that the book is in copyright. One can understand the original reason for copyright, but it has spiralled out of all control. I know it is scarcely believable, but copyright in the EU runs out, get this, 70 years after the death of the author!!! Is that really necessary? And shouldn't it be rather dated from the date of publication? It is all rather counterproductive as far as the increase in human knowledge iis concerned. |
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:20 pm: |
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See http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarjala/OpposingCopyrightExtension/legmats/Harmon izationChartDSK.html Myles Dillon, born 1900, died in 1972. As this was a joint authorship, copyright expires 70 years after the death of the last one to die, and I don't know anything abouot Donncha O croinin |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1614 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:43 pm: |
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Sin deireadh leis an smaoineamh sin! Tá Donncha Ó Cróinín beo fós, bail ó Dhia air! Tá sé i gceannas ar an sár-suíomh Acmhainn.ie. Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!
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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:55 pm: |
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OK. None of us will be alive when the TYI book finally exits copyright! How ridicuous it that! |
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Riona
Member Username: Riona
Post Number: 397 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:13 pm: |
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I see the need for copyright of course. But it can't hurt to write down bits of a book here for the benefit of learners. I won't tell if you won't you know. It is not like the authors of these books are sitting in the dark corners of Daltai waiting for someone to use parts of their books. Beir bua agus beannacht |
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Cionaodh
Member Username: Cionaodh
Post Number: 276 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:14 pm: |
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A Dhonncha -- an raibh an Ó Cróinín sin fásta i 1961? Chonaic mé a ghriangraf cúpla bliain ó shin, agus mheas mé go raibh an fear sin i mheánaois fós. http://www.gaeilge.org FRC - Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1615 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:27 pm: |
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Hmmm. Dá mbeadh sé 25 sa bhliain 1961, bheadh sé 70 inniu. Bheadh sé i mbarr a réime fós! Ach níl mé céad faoin gcéad cinnte gurb é an duine céanna atá ann. Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!
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