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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (July-August) » Archive through July 07, 2006 » U2 phrase - english to gaelic « Previous Next »

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Good day! My friends and I are looking to make a shirt with a phrase from U2's Vertigo. It is:

YOUR LOVE IS TEACHING ME HOW TO KNEEL.

Can someone help us? Thanks so much! :)

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 06:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Someone on another site gave me this:

Bíonn do grá an dóigh lenar mo ghúine a dhéanamh a mhúineadh dom

What do you think?

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Caitriona (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 07:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This is a rushed job as I’m heading out but here’s a quick answer seeing as you haven’t got one yet. I’d wait to see what else you get:

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh dom dul ar mo ghlúine.

FRC

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1538
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 07:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's so ungrammatical and chaotic that no one could guess that it translates the U2 line. The best I can do, while keeping it concise, is:

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh sléachta dom.

One problem is that Irish does not have a commonly used verb meaning "kneel". We usually say something like "chuaigh sé ar a ghlúine", literally "he went onto his knees" or "d'fheac sé a ghlúin" ("he bent his knee"). What I've used above is a form (genitive of the verbal noun) of the verb "sléacht", which to me means "prostrate oneself, bow down completely".

The song says:

I'm at a place called Vertigo
Lights go down and all I know
Is that you give me something I can feel
You're teaching me ...aaahhh
Your love is teaching me ...aaaah
How to kneel


Is there supposed to be double meaning here? Who is teaching him to kneel for love? A dominatrix? God? His anamchara? All of the above?

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Odwyer
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Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 70
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 07:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No, his girlfriend.

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 08:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We're taking it in the "God" sense. As in God's love is teaching us how to kneel (to be humbled) rather than be served or rule or dominate.

Does that change things??? I figure it might due to the fact that there are subtle nuances in in any language.

We appreciate your help a lot.

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Odwyer
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Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 73
Registered: 05-2006


Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 08:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I like U2.

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Léitheoir (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 06:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Teaching me to kneel? Literally "ag múineadh dom an chaoi le dul ar mo ghlúine" but if humility is involved you could say "ag múineadh umhaile dom".

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 11:54 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So....

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh umhaile dom.

...might be more to what we are trying to say???

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Also... ahem... because I'm sort of weird that way, is it possible to tell me how to pronounce it AND what the words mean?

Thanks, again, for your time!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1539
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One problem: "umhaile" is not usually a noun, it's a form of the adjective meaning "humble, obedient, submissive". The usual noun is "umhlaíocht", and the genitive form is required here:

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh umhlaíochta dom.

= Your love is teaching me submission/obedience/humility.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1540
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Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

is it possible to tell me how to pronounce it AND what the words mean?

Someone else can struggle with conveying the pronunciation. Here the word for word breakdown:

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh umhlaíochta dom.

is your love at teaching of-humility to-me

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 6
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Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Should I stick with your original

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh sléachta dom.

I'm at your mercy. ;)

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 51
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Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

How about:
Tá do ghrá ag múineadh dom conas a shléacht.
(a more literary translation to make it more 'singable' according to meter)

Tá tú ag múineadh dom ...aaahhh
Tá do ghrá ag múineadh dom ...aaaah
conas a shléacht

Lars

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1541
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Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well... "tá do ghrá ag múineadh umhlaíochta dom" is very straightforward and unambiguous. No one should have any trouble understanding it. The word "sléachtadh" (gen. "sléachta") is less well known and pretty much equivalent in tone to "prostrating oneself". Caitríona's suggestion "ag múineadh dom dul ar mo ghlúine" tracks the original English most closely. The only possible problem there is stylistic. A person composing an original quotable quote in Irish might well prefer the compactness of the other formulations. It's up to you.

To tell the truth, I'm not a big fan of translating something that sounds great in English or some other language into Irish just for the sake of having it in Irish (as a sort of linguistic talisman?). Every language has its own unique genius for creating pithy sayings, memorable word images, and so on. When faced with translating an English proverb into Irish, the usual and best approach is to look for the native Irish proverb that conveys the same idea... frequently in very different images than the English.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 7
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Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sheesh.. you guys are good. We're only looking to take that phrase, that "worldview" expressed so well in that simple lyric, and putting it on a shirt. It's true that essentially no one will understand it, but it's a great way to start a conversation about what life is all about. (It's what some of us wacky Christians do. ;)

It will be next to a celtic cross. And since U2 are Irish, and since Gaelic is like my faith (beautiful, although really tough sometimes), we thought it would be perfect.

In light of all that, do you think that this is still OK?

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh sléachta dom.

I bow to your(pl) expertise. :)

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1542
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh dom conas a shléacht.

Two problems here:

a) We would need not "sléacht", but the verbal noun "sléachtadh".

b) Putting "conas" into this sort of construction is not very elegant and smacks of English. For example, for "he's teaching me how to swim" we normally say:

Tá sé ag múineadh snámha dom.

not

*Tá sé ag múineadh dom conas snámh.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1543
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 01:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Macknight, a chara,

How about waiting until Monday, which will give Aonghus, Seosamh, Pangur Dubh, Lughaidh and some of the other regulars a chance to weigh in?

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 01:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That would be GREAT! I'm only in a hurry because I'm (ahem) excited about it, but know that the wisest thing to do is what you suggest. ;)

And I don't want it americanized. Just pure, unadulterated Gaelic. :)

Thanks to all!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3320
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 02:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm with Dennis on the inadvisability of translation in this case!

But I'd go with

Tá do ghrá ag múineadh umhlaíochta dom.

Or, more simply:

Múineann Do ghrá umhlaíocht dom
teaches your love obedience to me

("Do" capitalised, since we are talking about God).

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Wee_falorie_man
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Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 41
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 03:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't think U2 had any of this in mind when they made/sung that song. I would personally feel uncomfortable quoting words out of context, from lyrics that meant something totally different. Just a thought ...

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 05:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'd respectfully disagree, given the album as a whole and their faith. But...

Whether it's a U2 lyric or not, whether that's what they meant or not, is immaterial in the Big Picture. The meaning for us is pure and simple and what our ministry (swordandspirit.com) is all about. His love is NOT making me into a king or despot or rich or powerful or arrogant; I can do that fine by myself. His love is teaching me how to bend the knee (in humility and surrender and sacrifice to others). And for what it's worth, that describes U2, as well.

Given that, and I apologize if it seems I beating a dead horse here, which of the above translations do you think would be best for YOUR LOVE IS TEACHING ME HOW TO KNEEL?

Thanks for your patience!!!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3327
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 04:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If you insist on kneeling:

Táim ar mo ghlúine de bharr teagasc do ghrá

Táim I am
ar mo ghlúine on my knees
de bharr because of
teagasc teaching
do ghrá of your love



But wouldn't you be better off finding an equivalent passage of scripture - there is bound to be something in the Psalms, and then we can give you a polished translation.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 06:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>> Bíonn do grá an dóigh lenar mo ghúine a dhéanamh a mhúineadh dom. What do you think?

-- I think it's absolutely terrible.


>> Tá do ghrá ag múineadh sléachta dom.

-- Perfect, go with it.


>> ... an equivalent passage of scripture - there is bound to be something in the Psalms ...

-- One other angle which you may wait for Dennis' and other's appraisal would be (I am all the more humble because of your love):

Is umhlaide mé do ghrá.

Very very few shall understand that usage, while they may well understand what is intended. It is high register language however.
You may have a busy time telling the ex-Irish education system people that it is correct already!

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1550
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Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is umhlaide mé do ghrá.

That's great! It's no longer the U2 line, but it has a wonderful presence of its own. It's utterly and completely Irish and sounds really good, too. Literally:

is * more humble of it * I * your * love

What I read from this line is both (a) that your example teaches me humility, and (b) that I am humbled by the generosity of your love.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Great! I pass it by the rest of us here and see what they think. They won't have a probem with it, I think. If so, they need to learn some humility. ;)

Should "do" be capitalized?

As to how it sounds... How exactly DOES it sound? ;)

Thanks so much all of you! Feel free to continue commenting. Overall there is honestly probably no one who will ever question it, unless I go to an Irish Festival or am in Seattle and happen to walk by Dennis. But it's a good feeling knowing that what we are printing is accurate and "Irish." :)

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And would it look like this in the proper font?:

http://swordandspirit.com/gaelic.jpg

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3336
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 04:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For accuracy, the h's should be replaced by a dot over the preceding consonant.

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 12
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Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 05:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tried to using the font. Couldn't figure it out. But will draw one in without a problem if I have to.

But Aonghus, does this phrase seem to say what we're looking for??? What do you think?

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 313
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Mhacknight a chara,

That is really neat what you're doing. I'm a Christian too and I really think its fantastic that you're conveying such an important thing in Irish, the language that is my favorite. Really grand. Wishing you all the very best, beir bua agus beannacht.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3338
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Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 04:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think Seosamh has given you the most elegant phrase so far.

What machine (Windows/Mac) are you using, and what font?

Most of the fonts I know have the lenited consonants.

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Maidhc_Ó_g
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Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 221
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Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 07:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is uµlaide mé do ³rá.

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Macknight
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Post Number: 13
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Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks Aonghus. I appreciate your honest input - a lot.

I got the font from learnirishgaelic.com, which is working fine except for that one dot function which I can handle in Adobe Illustrator.

And Riona, thanks for the nice comments! IF we end up doing this (which looks really good now thanks to all the help here) you are welcome to have one, as is anyone who helped us do this. This site has been GREAT help for us.

When our art guys do it, I plan on coming back to ask you all if it looks OK, so i don't end up printing a misspelling!

Nevertheless, if anyone still has any idea or corrections, feel free to fire away. :)

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 3341
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Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 03:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Have a look at
http://www.fainne.org/gaelchlo if you are a Windows user. Those fonts are more elegant, and have the lenited consonants.

These ones are for Mac: http://www.evertype.com/celtscript/

But they cost.

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 14
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Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 03:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

We're all Mac people, but our shirt guys have a PC somewhere in the shop, in the closet, in the back, next to their record players. ;)

Thanks though. It may be worth the price. going there now...

(By the way, both the m and the g get the "dots," correct? Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá)

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 15
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Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

By the way (again), since there are many to choose from for the Mac at that one site, is there any particular group that is more accurate than the other or are they just variations on a theme.

They are really beautiful. I can't see how we can lose here.

:)

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 04:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>> By the way, both the m and the g get the "dots," correct?

That's correct Mac Knight / a Mhic an Ridire (to address you in your old Mayo name, if you're not a Mac Neachdain > Mac Knight i.e.).


>> or are they just variations on a theme. They are really beautiful.

'Géarchló' seems to be nearest to the popular script as I remember it. The others seem more machinated.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 52
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 08:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Is umhlaide mé do ghrá.

Nach fearr a rá: "Is umhailide mé do ghrá"?
(comparative of umhal is umhaile, + de = umhailide)

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 09:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tarlóidh an coimriú sin ar an dara siolla a Lars. Tabharfaidh tú faoi deara é ina mhacasamhail eile bunaithe ar an bhfréamh chéanna.

Bheifí ag súil ar an dul céanna le 'is measaide x an y' ach 'is/ní miste' atá againn, cé gurbh imirt eile a chruthaigh siúd is dóigh. B'ait liom 'umhailide' ar údar nach féidir liom a mhíniú duit as mo sheasamh, ach bheadh col éigin agam leis.

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Lars
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Post Number: 53
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 11:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah yes. That's right. Umhailide ['u:ël´ëd´ë] sounds odd.
And by the way, acc. to Dinneen: umhal, gsf. & comp. umhaile or umhla
So: umhla + de = umhlaide ['u:lëd´ë]

Go raibh maith agat
Lars

(Message edited by Lars on June 28, 2006)

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 16
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can I translate the last couple posts as "The original Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá is correct"?

;)

(And is the capitalized *Do* the correct way when referring to God)

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Riona
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Post Number: 323
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 01:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes you'd capitalize Do because its the same as Your in English. You capitalize it when you talk about God.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 01:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>> Can I translate the last couple posts as "The original Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá is correct"?


Yes Macknight, we're all for 'Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá'.

As a footnote, while people allow 'Tú', 'Thú', personal pronouns to capitalize for The Lord, many are reluctant to follow suit in possessive adjectives, 'A', 'Do' etc. But your context of it being on just a t-shirt needs such a distinction.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 54
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 01:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

> Can I translate the last couple posts as "The original Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá is correct"?

Yes, probably you can.

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 17
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 01:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks again - all of you. :) What a helpful group this forum is!

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Odwyer
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Username: Odwyer

Post Number: 90
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 03:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You bet it is!

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 18
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 04:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Can I ask one more favor? How does one pronounce Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá?

I'm rather obsessive compulsive when it comes to speaking other languages as correctly as I can. Can anyone break it down phonetically? We are planning on having a tiny card with the shirt that has a literal translation, and an attempt to pronounce it. Maybe someone might get interested in Gaelic through this all? :)

again, thanks...

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 382
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 04:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So....can we see a finished product and perhaps purchase one or two??

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 55
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Can I ask one more favor? How does one pronounce Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá?

Perhaps:
[ës u:lëd´ë m´e: dë γra:]

([ë] for schwa, i.e. "a" in "about")

Lars

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 19
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 05:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

1) Does the colon after the letter mean the "long" vowel sound?

2) Our art guy gets back from Italy next week and will work on it then. And of course! you can get one through us.

3) I plan on passing it by you all first anyway, just to make REAL sure we got it right. I'll probably put a jpeg image of it on our site and link it from here.

:)

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Mac Léinn na Gaeilge (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

1) Does the colon after the letter mean the "long" vowel sound?



Yes, but just to avoid any confusion the e: sounds like "may."

Here's a link to this site's pronunciation guide which contains a sound clip for "e:"

http://www.daltai.com/key.htm

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 243
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Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 05:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is umhlaide mé Do ghrá

/əs `u:ləd’ə m’e: də γr:/

iss oola-ji may duh ghrah (gh stands for a voiced “ch” as in loch)

which is still too far from the actual pronunciation...

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 244
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 05:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh. Lars' one is brilliant, and I'm a bit late. Sorry :)

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Macknight
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Username: Macknight

Post Number: 20
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 07:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Should I assume the Irish "r" sound is a hard R and not a rolled R?

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 56
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 02:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Irish broad [r] is rolled.

Of course you should use Peter's version because of his [ə]. I cannot read his [:]. It is probably a "script a", i.e. without its hook. But in phonetic transcriptions used in dictionaries there's often only [a:], so you can use this, too, though a script a is better.

[əs u:ləd´ə m´e: də γra:]

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on June 29, 2006)

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1559
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 02:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

For the sound of 'gh' in "ghrá", find someone with a good Spanish accent and listen to them say "abogado, mago, lago" or other words that have 'g' between vowels. That's the same sound as Irish 'gh' when written next to 'a, o, u' -- what we call a 'broad gh'.

Go raibh [do rogha meafar] leat!



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