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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (May-June) » Archive through June 13, 2006 » Táid na ba 'á dtiomáint « Previous Next »

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 292
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 05:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yesterday I got caught in one investigation. I look through all my "Irish of ... " books to discover that verb:

quote:

tiomáin



has a BROAD "t" in An Rinn, Cois Fharraige, Iorras, Tuar Mhic Éadaigh, and if I trust my TYI (le Dillon) - in Múscraí too. So here is the question - why the word is spelled with slender "t" if it is broad everywhere?

Ámhar mór oraibh

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 194
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 03:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Carna has /tumα:N't'/ (interestingly, in CF it is /tumα:L't'/). Well, it seems there's a grain of truth in your words.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1411
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 01:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The verb is "tiomáinidh" (= tiománann) in Classical Modern Irish, based on the Old Irish verbal noun "timán". Historical continuity and the claims of the existing literary norms are factors that we given some weight in the construction/definition of the Standard.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 294
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 03:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhonncha,

In classical Irish we had "tuitim" which was successfully abandoned in favor of "titim" (as being the form following actual MODERN pronunciation). If I think more - I can give loads of other words whose spelling has been changed to follow MODERN pronunciation (like eateall > eitil, tocfaidh > tiocfaidh, té > tae etc). So in this case I see not continuity, but definite lack of consistency. Maybe inventors of caighdeán forgot this word in their pursuit of nua-Ghaeilge?

Le meas

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 08:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

From Iorrais:

Conán Maol ag caitheamh cloch, nó múr sneachta ag toidheacht ar loch

/...Na: mu:r N'axd @ t'i:xd er lox/

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1412
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

In classical Irish we had "tuitim" which was successfully abandoned in favor of "titim"

Is fíor duit. Maidir le "tiomáin" agus "tit", céard atá ag Dinneen? (Creid é nó ná creid, níl an foclóir sin agam!) Agus céard a bhí ag Peadar Ó Laoghaire, in Séadna go háirithe? Léigh chuile dhuine a bhí páirteach i ngluaiseacht na Gaeilge a chuid leabhar agus bhí tionchar nach beag aige ar fhorbairt na teanga dá bharr sin.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 295
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Creid é nó ná creid, níl an foclóir sin agam!



Is ana-scéal é! News of the year! Are you serious? I can't believe it!!! :-))

quote:

Agus céard a bhí ag Peadar Ó Laoghaire

Is trua san, but my edition is caighdeánised pigeon :-(((


Robert:

I fail to see word "tiomáin" in your quote.

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 01:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was looking for cases where /t'/ and /t/ changed over time. Middle Irish tíacht (DIL), EModIr toidheacht (~ tidheacht) >/t'i@xt/

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As an aside point, a Rómain, I think was it you or Student of irish who asked if /R/ was still in use in Irish. Well www.celt.dias.ie/gaeilge/staff/hpnas981.pdf in the bit about trilled r makes mention of it in Connacht Irish of Erris, but which was missed in the phonemic book.

TYI says the /R/ is expected in Munster by O Dillion, but Lughaidh says it is all Englsih approximants and retroflexes now. Shame.

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Fiacc (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 03:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>Maidir le "tiomáin" agus "tit", céard atá ag Dinneen? (Creid é nó ná creid, níl an foclóir sin agam!) Agus céard a bhí ag Peadar Ó Laoghaire, in Séadna go háirithe?

Tá 'tiomáin' agus 'tuitim' ag Dineen agus tá 'thuit' ag Pádraic Ó Conaire sa leabhar 'Sgéalta an tSáirsint Rua': "Thuit na deora le mo leicinn".

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Wildrover
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Username: Wildrover

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 09:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Robert! That .pdf document you sent to Róman with the Irish phonology info was one of the best documents of it's kind that I've come across on the web. More of the same please! Thanks again!
-ó Eoghan.

As go brach linn in ainm Dé, fé mar maidin é!

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 196
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 01:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Guys, it's not Connacht Irish of Erris. It's Ó Curnáin's unpublished work on Iorras Aithneach which means Carna. It's Western Connemara.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 197
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 02:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As for /R/: the trilled [R] is heard word-initially in Cois Fhairrge (it's mostly a combination of a postalveolar approximant with trill on it), but it doesn't imply it's phonemic. The same thing in Carna.

What is really worth discussing is that both Ó Curnáin and de Bhaldraithe place the tense velarised /N/ among the alveolar consonants, but /L/ is referred to as 'dental'. How come? I'm not 100% sure of the alveolar quality of /N/ in Cois Fhairrge from what I heard.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 298
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 02:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Robert:

what do you mean by /R/? trill-r is not /R/! It is simple /r/. I doubt if /R/ exists in Modern Irish, it is the long-trilled sound like in Spanish "perro" - never heard anything like this in Irish.

/N/ cannot be alveolar, otherwise there is no difference with /n/. Although now I think in Conamara there is no /N/:/n/ distinction - so it might be that (English) sound prevailed.

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 07:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

www.celt.dias.ie/gaeilge/staff/hpnas983.pdf is another one. The whole book does not seem to be there, unfortunatly

I know the /R/ is not used in minimal pairs etc any more. I was just clearing up the idea that it does not exist at all, as I have heard one women from Conemara on Drochla Rúirí with it. How long ago (plus /r'/ vs /R'/) was the distinctions relivant, I'd like to know.

I mention /R/ to you Roman as TYI mentions one rolls the r, not taps it as in Hiberno-English. I'm surprised id no /R/ can be heard, even if just non-phonemically as I have heard in in the Englsih of Fermanagh, Cavan, Galway, Donegal, and Down

To my ear /L/ in Conemara is dental. I just assumed /N/ was too. What about that book 'Caint Ros Muc'? I'm not down on the geography of Conemara

As for 'ag toidheacht', Dineen has this to say:

Toidheacht (see Tuidheacht), Tuidheacht, a, m, act of coming; vl. of d0-tiag, I come (O. Irish); al. toidheacht, and now gnly. tidheacht, through confusion with tíochta(in), early vl. of titim

Ó Donaill: Tuidheacht = teacht

The earlier spelling must have been preferred in Erris book as it is not in dictionaries

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 07:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, "what do you mean by /R/? trill-r is not /R/!" -well it is just used in the simple transcription to mean the trilled r. I know, the Irish one is shorter than spanish

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 300
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 08:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Robert - you are lost in phonetic terms!

English "r" is retroflex, not a tap sound! irish [r] is trilled whether tap or not tap. The difference is in the position of the tip of the tongue. In English it bends back, in Irish it protrudes forward.

the sound [R'] is hypothetical - no dialect had it in Wagner's time, and that was 60 years ago.

the sound [R] does not exist in Conamara. There is one (allegedly) in Donegal, but the evidence is flimsy. The only position where you should hear it is -rr- in the middle of the words. If it is REALLY pronounced differently from simple -r- is a matter of debate.

In all other cases you have [r] and [r']. The English sound is transcribed with other letter (hook) which I can't reproduce here.

So to recap: thinking that rolled sound is [R] and tap is [r] is plainly wrong. [R] is not only rolled but also pronounced longer and tenser. The [r] can be both tapped and rolled - difference is non-phonemic and depends on speaker's preferences.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 199
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 10:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

[R] stands for the alveolar trill. [r] stands for the alveolar tap. The interrelation between the 2 sounds is that making a series of [r]’s will give you a [R]. This is it.

The palatalised conterpart [r'] represents [r] pronounced along with the [i]-quality tongue articulation (i.e. rising it towards the hard palate).

In the IPA transcription system [R] stands for the uvular trill, [r] refers to the alveolar trill, [г] denotes the alveolar tap.

(Message edited by Peter on June 02, 2006)

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 200
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 10:18 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

[R] is not only rolled but also pronounced longer and tenser.

These properties are sequent from the articulation of the sound itself. So to make the tip of the tongue vibrate you have to make more aerodynamical effort, something like breathe out more intensively.

Now, since the phonemic distinction has been lost, the velarised r-phoneme can surface as either [г], or [r] in the IPA terms. I presume its palatalised counterpart is mostly always a palatalised alveolar tap, though it's nothing more than my own perception.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 201
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 10:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Note:

I don't ditinguish between "tap" and "flap".

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 08:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Román,
I'm not confused at all. I very well know the difference between an English 'r' and the Irish ones. My Englsih r is an approxomant; in Norn Iron it is even more retroflex.

I never recall saying that the Englsih r wasa tap sound. the retroflex tap is a very rare sound.

I think I will disambiguate here:

I use /r/ to mean tap/flap; /R/ for trill; /r'/ for the slender Irish r; /R'/ for a stronger slender r, which Lughaidh reports in final position in Gaoth Dobhair. /R'/ is not to suggest the Early Modern Irish fricative trill, which may have been like the famous Czech alveolar trill, but rather to suggest the sound that might have replaced it, i.e. a stronger articularion of /r'/. I have heard more stronger articualtions of /r'/ among Donegal speakers, so some sort of transcription is needed for them.

By /R/ i mean the longer /r/ as Peter posits.

When I want to use IPA codes, I use Gentium, thus:

ɾ = broad irish r
ɼ =slender irish r
r =aleolar trill
ʀ = uvular trill
ʁ = uvular fricative
ɽ =retroflex tap (like ɾ but further back)
ɻ =Somerset, Cornwall, parts of Northern Ireland English r
ɹ =Southern Hiberno English r

"Now, since the phonemic distinction has been lost, the velarised r-phoneme can surface as either [г], or [r] in the IPA terms. I presume its palatalised counterpart is mostly always a palatalised alveolar tap, though it's nothing more than my own perception."

That is all I have been saying, so I dont know what the fuss is about.

I you want me to regularise my day-by-day use of slash or bracket / or [], tell me how you like to use them so I can chnage and this confusion will not happen again

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 07:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

t'ig'@N for tuigeann in Iorrais (page 37, 3rd paragraph)

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 302
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 09:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

which Lughaidh reports in final position in Gaoth Dobhair.



But somehow everybody else is reporting [j] (English "y") in this position.



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