Often in Irish, an "h" is pronounced after an "s", as in Seán. But other times, no. How can one knoe when to pronounce the "h"?

The magic letters are i and e
In English, the usual k sound of c changes to an s with i and e. 'ci' or 'ce' gives you an 's' sound (city, ceiling)
while it's the regual k sound for ca, co or cu (cat, cot, cut).
The same goes for g.
It changes sound to j after i and e (George, ginger)
Of course all rules have exceptions (even this one).

In Irish i and e works their magic again.

S changes to an sh sound with i and e
(sí, sin, sibh, sé, seisear).

Now that we're on this topic I'd like to look for exceptions. I'm starting with
1.séasúr. Anyone else?

How about anseo and ansin (in the dialect that I'm learning, anyway)?

quote:

Now that we're on this topic I'd like to look for exceptions. I'm starting with
1.séasúr. Anyone else?

Cén chaoi a ndeireanns tú é, a Chaitríona? sh - sh - ?

Maidir le heisceachtaí, is dóigh liom go ndeirtear "soir" le 's' caol i gContae Mhaigh Eo.

(Message edited by dennis on May 27, 2006)

But I though season was pronounced with an sh?

An dara siolla (the second syllable) atá i gceist agam.

Ok.

An dara siolla (the second syllable) atá i gceist agam

Denis means the second syllable /se:z'un/ as the auld people might kinda say in Connachta

This whole thread is confusing anyway

séasúr? An bhfuil sé /s'e:s'u:r/, A Dhennis, sa Mhae Ó? Raelaigh?

So you say it Seashur?

If an s comes after an e or an i, does it become sh? Go raibh maith agat, Robert.

Ok, a little disambiguation beg is needed.

I think you are confusing eiher yourself (altho I cannot speak 4 jerself, but I think it is a possibility) and readers too.

The shushing sound is /s'/. Almost to a tee, before or when surrounded by /i/ and /e/ it is /s'/ (shush). It is /s/ as in 'sea' when before or surrounded by a , o, u in writing.

"If an s comes after an e or an i, does it become sh?" In that sense, yes.

Writing Irish out using Englsih (making it like Manx) makes for awful confusion, in my mind at least, as there are so many more sounds, so so many convolutions must be given

"anseo and ansin" -the s is slender, despite the confusing spelling.

quote:

This whole thread is confusing anyway

The ball is Caitríona's court, I think. Dúirt sise:

I'd like to look for exceptions. I'm starting with 1.séasúr.

Agus d'fhreagair mise:

Cén chaoi a ndeireanns tú é, a Chaitríona?

The exception that comes to my mind is the Mayo pronunciation of "soir" with an intitial slender 's' (like English 'sh'), under the influence of the paired word "siar".

How about anseo and ansin (in the dialect that I'm learning, anyway)?
Mar sin
Exceptions so far are
1. Ansin and anseo in Munster Irish and
2. soir i gCondae Maigh Eo


Chuala mé séasúr mar (say sure)-Béarla idir lúibíní- a mhalairt ar fad ar an gcaoi ar chóir dó a bheith ach ní sa Ghaeltacht a chuala mé é.
Ar chuala éinne eile mar sin é?

“is”, nach mór an eisceacht é?

Is mór an eisceacht é. Go raibh maith agat Peter.
Tá mé ag ceapadh anois go mbeadh sé níos fearr séasúr a scriosadh ón liosta. Seans mhaith gur botúin a bhí ann i m'óige. Gabh mo leithscéal. Bainim taitneamh as cúnamh a thabhairt do dhaoine ach níl mé ag iarradh daoine a bheith meascaithe suas faoi.

Dennis,
Maidir le liathróidí sa chúirt, tóg na pointí go léir más mian leat. Tá sé ró-dheacair dom bheith anseo nuair atá faitíos an domhain orm go ndéanfaidh mé botúin nuair a fheicim d'ainm. Tá mé ag éirí as.

Robert,
I was hoping to help O'Dwyer in an easy way. Forgive the confusion. Understand the intent please. Ach slán mar sin féin.

O'Dwyer,
Séasúr is probably not an exception at all but a mispronounced version I heard in my youth. Good luck with your studies.


Tá foclóir le foghraíocht ag teastáil uaim.

Slán
C

GRMA

soir has slender /s`/ in Munster as well.

Anseo and ansin ARE NOT exceptions in Munster - there are NO such words in Munster. There are other words which are spelled anso and ansan. The only exception is that ansan is pronounced with /o/ in second syllable.

The exception that comes to my mind is the Mayo pronunciation of "soir" with an intitial slender 's' (like English 'sh'), under the influence of the paired word "siar".

Well, soir is pronounced with a slender s as well in Ulster... why does it have a broad s in the Standard then? :-)

In Northwestern Donegal (Gweedore), soir [s'ej] ("shay").

quote:

Well, soir is pronounced with a slender s as well in Ulster... why does it have a broad s in the Standard then?

Agus tá 's' caol acu i nGaeilge na hAlban chomh maith: "sear".

Ach mar /ser'/ a deirtear "soir" i gConamara, le 's' leathan. Deir Teach Yourself Irish (an chéad cheann le Dillon & Ó Cróinín) gur mar /sir'/ le 's' leathan atá "soir" le cloisteáil i gCúige Mumhan -- agus "anoir" mar /#nir'/ le 'n' leathan chomh maith. Sin é an fuaimniú stairiúil. Bhí 's' leathan sa tSean-Ghaeilge: "sair".

Caitriona,

According to Gaeltalk (the online Irish course), the word "séasúr" is indeed an exception. Gaeltalk is run by native speakers from the Muskerry gaeltacht and they give the pronunciation of "séasúr" with two broad esses on their sound files. I double checked yesterday with the Gaeltalk teacher who talks to me every week (he is also a native speaker from Muskerry), and he verified that pronunciation as correct.

He also said that "anseo and anso", and "ansin and ansan" are the same exact words. He said that they are merely spelling variations and he would pronounce either version the same way - with broad "s"

Is a broad s pronounced as "sh?" And isn't "e" a slender vowel?

Is it pronounced
sheashur nó seasur nó seashur?

"nó" is "or", ceart?

Thomas

quote:

Is it pronounced sheashur nó seasur nó seashur?

Séasúr is usually pronounced as written, with a slender first 's' and a broad second 's', roughly SHAY-soor.

But now we have good evidence, thanks to Ramon, to back up Caitríona's recollection of hearing it pronounced exceptionally as SAY-soor in one area.

Another exception that comes to mind is seisiún, which many people pronounce with a broad first 's', as in English "session" (which is of course where the word came from).

"Séasúr is usually pronounced as written, with a slender first 's' and a broad second 's', roughly SHAY-soor."

That's how my learning guide pronounces it. Two questions more:

1. WHat do the two accents on e and u do?
2. So slender s is pronounced sh?

GRMA Dennis!

quote:

1. WHat do the two accents on e and u do?
2. So slender s is pronounced sh?

1. Accent marks (aka long marks, fadas) do just one thing in Irish: show that the vowel is long. That means it's pronounced longer in time, and often has a different sound as well. Compare:

min (= flour, meal) rhymes with English "bin"
mín (= fine, smooth) sounds like English "mean"

2. Yes.

That's cool and I have run out of questions! Thank you so much!