Is there one dialect that is being taught in greater numbers than the others. Not that I'm saying this is a bad thing, just wondering is all.

Perhaps it's due to immigration patters or something, but it seems to me that in the US at least 1/2 (if not a bit more) of the learners and speakers I've encountered are learning/spseaking Ulster dialect, while the other three (for purposes of 'what are learners learning' I'm counting caighdeán) make up the balance with Munster the minority there. Does there seem to be truth to that? Is that the case in other places outside Ireland where the language is studied?

I myself am learning the Ulster dialect because I lived in the north of Ireland for almost all my life, so it seemed natural.

At the moment I'm not living in Ireland but elsewhere in Europe. It's remarkable to see how many not-Irish people are learning Irish. That's grand!

"It's remarkable to see how many not-Irish people are learning Irish. That's grand!"

Isn't it now? I can't tell you what a fuzzy feeling it gives me when I hear that a non-Irish person, or one who claims no Irish ancestry whatsoever is learning the lanugage.

Is that the case in other places outside Ireland where the language is studied?

Moscow is practically 100% caighdeán speaking – I mean those who learn Irish, of course :) – but all of them claim to speak with a broad Munster accent – which I doubt greatly. I’m a Connemara Irish partisan, all by myself, though I hear there’s allegedly another Connacht Irish learner here as well, but I’ve never met him/her in person, nor have I talked to him/her on the net. Learning Ulster Irish is regarded as mauvais ton :) Though tons say “jaynav”, “chay” for déanamh, te and still claim to speak as Munstermen do.

I never had the talent for music and I cannot sing but I appreciate a good singer/ musician when I see someone trying. Alas, "in our consumer dumbed down culture" in the developed world the majority cannot be bothered with learning a minority/almost extinct language.I know from my 18 years living in the Uk and 24 years in Ireland that "our Celtic tongue/culture/traditions " are a matter of fun and not to be taken too seriously by the majority of English/Irish people.The Scots and the Welsh have more pride in their tongue and are willing to promote and use the languages to a far greater extent than Gaeilge in Ireland.

quote:

The Scots and the Welsh have more pride in their tongue...

Ná déan áibhéil maidir le staid na Gàidhlig in Albain. Níl suim dá laghad ag formhór na nAlbanach inti, agus tá sí i bhfad níos laige lasmuigh de na hOileáin ná mar atá an Ghaeilge in Éirinn.

--->Scríobh Antaine: Isn't it now? I can't tell you what a fuzzy feeling it gives me when I hear that a non-Irish person, or one who claims no Irish ancestry whatsoever is learning the lanugage.

Me! Me!

Peter, I'm learning Connemara-Irish.

I always thought Connemara was the most popular one for learners?

In Massachusetts (U.S.), the immigrants to the Boston area were mostly from Galway & Mayo; if you drive a couple of hours west to Springfield, it's mostly people from Kerry. The dialect of preference in either area becomes obvious/expected once you know a bit about the immigration patterns.

I encounter an occasional Ulster speaker hereabouts, but not many.

Of all of the Irish language classes in this region, most are using a textbook (or books) written in Caighdeán Irish, so any benefit one might expect from having access to native speakers is "compromised" somewhat by the limitations of the textbooks available.

Though I don't like admitting it I havn't any Irish blood in me that is worth noting. If there is any at all, which there probably isn't, it is so far back that it really wouldn't count for much. But Irish is what I want to be and it is what I want to learn. The all of it has captivated me and that is that.

What dialect would be spoken in Co. Tipperary? That's where O'Dwyers come from.

today? none, theoretically. I would imagine the closest cousin to what was once spoken there would be the current Munster dialect, whether Kerry or Cork depending on what part of Tipp you're in...

Tipperary doesn't seem to have much of its own dialect anymore; it's rather hard to preserve that sort of uniqueness without living communities where that language is spoken everyday. One Irish speaker I know from Tipperary sounds a lot like he has Cork Irish, but I can't tell you if that's widespread or just him.

According to scarce data available Tipperary (at least South) Irish has been almost identical with Déise, .i. An Rinn's Irish. There was an "arc" of Déise pronunciation stretching from Port Láirge, through Tiobrad (I hope I spelled it right), Cill Cinne (??) into An Clár. The pronunciation was not like in Corcaigh or Ciarraí for that matter. We can even state that pronunciation of current living Munster dialects was somewhat exceptional and marginal in the context of whole cúige.

Le meas

Well listening to English speakers from South Leitrim, thru Longford, to the Bog of Allen to Tipp, one can see a shading of accent into each other. Cork and Kerry are very different to such a grouping; hoever, I would not be surprised if they shade into each other thru Munster, but I've never been to the south, so I dont know.

But dont be surprised if there are boundaries -the accent on the boundaries between Leitrim and say Donegal and Fermanagh is very distinct, even if South Donegal people are more like us now given the last 80 years of integration (and consequent inpact of Southern Hiberno influences on them).

You see the place "Tippearary" was created by the Brits in Ireland.. As such, it shouldn't have it's own accent but the n.w. be conamara and the s.e. be like An Rinn,

Dála an scéil, most of the múinteoirí who teach in An Rinn during the summer are from the general tipperary area.. Conas tánn tú agus araile..

Fuair mé é seo ar Google
Welcome to Ireland West-
Gaeltacht regions in Irelands West
West of Galway City is Connemara, Ireland’s largest Gaeltacht region. ....
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=largest+gaeltacht+area&btnG=Search

So Irish was never even spoken in Tipperary? And is the universal Gaelic conamara?

Every turf and sod once rang to the Glór, Tipp too

The standard has elements of Conemara and Kerry mostly, if that is what you mean

PS. Neither Kerry and Tipp are in the West. Only Connacht is the West

Yeah, I guess that's what I meant.

So which dialect do I want to learn? How many are there?

There are 3 and then there's the standard which doesn't really count.

To put things into perspective, Caroline, you're exactly like a student of English asking, "Should I learn English the way they speak in Texas, or the way they speak in Australia, or the way they speak in Dublin, or the way they speak in Jamaica, or the way they speak in London?"

It's all English. A Londoner would never say "ya'll" or "ain't", but she can still decode the message.

Same goes for Irish.

The logical thing to do is pick the dialect of the area which you may visit some time in the future.

If you want to go to Ulster some time, it makes more sense to learn Irish the Ulster way.

If you want to go to Munster some time, it makes more sense to learn Irish the Munster way.

I myself learned Irish at school, and was one of the fortunate few who actually had a good Irish teacher. My own Irish doesn't really stink of any particular dialect... but that's to be expected as I've never been immersed in the language. If I spend a month in an Ulster gaeltacht, I'll probably start saying "ceannóchaidh". If I spend a month in a Munster gaeltacht, I'll probably start sayin "cheannaíos".

At the moment, I'm more concerned with learning all the dialectal variants, exactly like how a learner of "London English" should be told about "ain't", even if they never use it themselves.

Even look at English how it's spoken in Scotland -- they've a totally different word for yes: Eye.

quote:

My own Irish doesn't really stink of any particular dialect...

Wow, this IS a STATEMENT! So may I rephrase you as saying that your Irish doesn't STINK of any Irish then?

Then I stink all over...


Oi, they do use "ain't" in London as well!!!

A Romain a chara,

Don't be so harsh. Fearnambrog learned his Irish at school and they, to my knowledge, teach the standardized version so don't be getting so riled up about it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Riona, watch this word - STINK. This is what I get so excited about!

<> ahem, 'eye'? What's 'eye'
Aye is what peopel in the north and borders say. So you have a pool of 1/4 of Ireland potentially coming into contact with others saying it.

If I was been regionalistic I would joke about dubliners not knowing about the foreign country their squatting on, but somebody might take it seriosly (and not F na mB either)

"There are 3 and then there's the standard which doesn't really count."

Conemara and Mayo are distinct enough to make 4. Historically, what is left in Mayo was part of the Connacht continuum, while Conemara was distinct. It is an irony that Conemara is now considered the only one.

"Stink"

Sounds like 'coloured' in the context, nothing more

I took it as a figure of speech, for mildly humourous effect

quote:

Wow, this IS a STATEMENT! So may I rephrase you as saying that your Irish doesn't STINK of any Irish then?

No, you may not.

I used the word "stink" methaphorically. The sense of smell is the most powerful sense when it comes to association. If you smell vinegar, you know straight away that it's vinegar. If you smell something from you shoe, you know straight away what you stepped in. Smell ammonia once and you'll still know (and fear) the smell seventy years later.

I used the word "stink" in the sense of firm association, rather than it having a negative connontation.

If I used "Munster vocabulary" exclusively, and "Munster grammar" exclusively, then my Irish would stink of Munster.

If I used "Ulster vocabulary" exclusively, and "Ulster grammar" exclusively, then my Irish would stink of Ulster.

Róman, you have to be realistic. There's no fine line between dialects -- it's very very blurred. There's people who live on my road who say "I seen", and there's people who live on my road who say "I saw". We all exchange with each other daily. There might even be someone who says "ya'll" or "ain't" within a mile of me.

There is definitely choice in Irish when it comes to conjugating verbs and the like (as there is in English: burned Vs burnt). I'm biased toward using "ceannóidh" rather than "ceannóchaidh", because that's the form that was drilled into my head for five or more years at school. However, one week of immersion is worth one year of schooling. Put me in an Ulster Gaeltacht for one month and you'll have me saying "ceannóchaidh".

As for there being some sort of "mongrel" way of speaking, or "illegitimate" way of speaking Irish -- that's simply not realisitic. If you're fluent, you're fluent PERIOD. I don't tell Tom, Dick or Harry that he shouldn't be saying "ain't" because he lives in Dublin. If anything, he'll tell me to "f*** off" for dictating the way in which he should speak. We're all individuals, and I'll talk like a rastifarian if I want.

I grew up in the latter part of the Twentieth Century, exposed to media and television and the like. Because of this, I don't even batt an eyelid when I hear "eye" instead of "yes"... even though no local person within a fifty mile radius of me says it. Maybe when I was six I was watching television and some man kept saying "aye" rather than "yes" -- it wouldn't take Einstein to figure out the correlation between the two words.

One more thing: What is all this talk about the Standard? There is no Standard -- there's the living language which is spoken between people. The Queen may prefer if I write "burned" rather than "burnt", or "proved" rather than "proven"... but nobody's going to say I'm "wrong" or "non-standard" if I choose to use a perfectly legitimate alternate form. And if they do, I'll tell them where to stick it.

If your only encounters with the Irish language are by reading, and trying to pick up grammar, then it's easy to pick up the wrong attitude (I've been there myself...). However, I got a very pleasant awakening within the last two weeks when I had the fortunate fate of meeting a group of people my age within my area who speak Irish. Neither of our Irish stinks of any particular dialect, but that's just plain natural because we're not immersed in a big area with everyone speaking the same language. I throw in the odd "cheannaíos", while another one of them may say "ag cur fearthainne" or "thar n-ais".

If one really has such an inferiority complex about speaking a "mongrel" Irish (which is a ridiculous, laughable prospect), then hop in the car and spend two months in Donegal, I'm sure they'll flog every last "cheannaíos" out of you.

I for one value my individuality, and I'll use any language construct which tickles my fancy. Just because nobody in my area says "the man with whom I was speaking" doesn't mean that I'm restricted to using the form "the man I was talking to".

The "Standard" is nothing more than a book which dictates "Write burned instead of burnt" -- it only means diddily squat if you choose to pay attention to it. I don't.

Mr Shoe,
yer been a bit mixey in your arguement. Indeed there is really only the spoken language, but in Irish there is no urban or book variety (i.e. esteem dialect), thus all native forms become the de facto standard. The examples from English are misplaced, as they cannot be compared.

Your Irish speaking network must be unique, as the only time in a city Irish is properly spoken is when a group of natives get together. As for "speaking a 'mongrel' Irish (which is a ridiculous, laughable prospect)..." in Ireland the native forms are considered inferior to urban mongral irish. The truth is is that when someone from an upper-middle class Dublin suburb opens their mouth, if they can be heard to speak fluently, most listeners will tag their speech as superior, even if it were to be a generated langauge with an odd 'agus' etc added in to trick the listner.

English mongrel Irish is the problem. Mixed native dialects are not, at this point anyway.

Whether you pay attention to the registrars of language is your perogative; however, you wont hold down a job unless you are very observant of how to act and how to speak as context requires an this is very much more circumscribed than people like to admit.

The fact is that by making the people of the Gaeltacht 'Irish' in the same way as the British in Ireland (us), our British culture is stamping out Gaeilg by then replacing it with a safe and very anglicised version, and nobody complains.

The both of you have interesting points which have merrit. If that's how FNB talks then thats how he talks and he seems to be understood. It is true that mixing and matching of words would probably even itself out if he goes to a Gaeltacht. It would all just work itself out naturally. But I see the need that Robert expresses for "integrity in preserving what is spoken by the native speakers in the Gaeltacht because a watered down Irish that is easier for English speakers to learn is not an improvement, it is a demotion of the language, in my opinion. Irish is hard for me, but that doesn't mean it should be watered down so that Americans can learn it easier, that would be dreadfull and embarrassing for all, not to mention it would mess everything up and make the language less than it is.

As for mixing and matching speech, I'm notorious. I don't speak the way people in my area are supposed to speak and occasionally I get chided for it. But it is how I want to speak and how I express myself and so I can understand why sometimes mixing and matching can be nice to do.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well Fn mB has much to add to any irish speaking community, native or not, but I cant agree on his (apparent) tendency to see the gulf between native and non-natives as the same as the little cleft idjer different natives groups.

As for mixing, non of us learners are native, and most of us have no gaeltacht in our county or region, so mixing is going to happen. I mean, with the written standard been almost inescapable, mixing is bound to happen. I personally, am torn between our cousin (Donegal) and our sister (Mayo) and may end up mixing both

Are the different tdialects of Irish really as colse as American and Brittish English? My grandparents speak Brittish English and I speak American English, and there are times when I don't understand what they're saying. If I'm a naitive speaker of English and I don't understand their dialect, then won't it be really hard to understand people speaking a dialect of another language if I'm not even fluent?

I'm not in a position to tell you how different they are as much of it is in the head of natives -it is common belief that Donegal speakers are inpenetrable, comprehension wise, and I hear that Munster natives say it too in many cases.

I guess the best thing to do is lean standard for now... I'm not yet sure where I want to go in Ireland.