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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (May-June) » Archive through May 08, 2006 » James joyce « Previous Next »

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 740
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 11:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

is the Gaeilge name for James Joyce "An Seoige" or "An tSeoige"...I had been told that it was something along those lines once upon a time by my teacher, but I don't remember how it is spelled.

someone I asked gave a spelling as 'An Seoigheach', but that doesn't jive with what I recalled...


I'm assuming there are no special Gaeilge forms for Yeats or Oscar Wilde...

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 08:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Séamus Seoige

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 741
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 08:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

That's what I've found on a few sites, but, while I don't remember the exact spelling (although you seem to confirm what I thought here as Seoige), I do recall that he what he'd given me translated to "The Joyce". I'm just not sure whether Seoige takes the 't' after An...

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Duine (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 02:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Seámus Seoige" translates as "James Joyce". But if you just wished to refer to him as "Joyce"(i.e. the man known by the surname "Joyce") you would call him "An Seoigheach". This is a distinct Irish way of referring to someone by their surname alone. And no, it doesn't mean "The Joyce", despite having the article included. As such, there is no English translation of this distinct Irish idiom.

Other examples:

Seán Ó Dálaigh - John Daly
Daly(i.e. the man called Daly) - An Dálach

Pól Ó Néill - Paul O'Neill
O'Neill(i.e. the man called O'Neill) - An Niallach

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 742
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 09:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What about "The O'Rahilly" or anyone else referred to as "Chief of the Name" who typically put a "The" before?

My understanding was that this is a mark of respect or distinction.

Since official recognition of "Chiefs of the Name" by the Chief Herald of Ireland has ceased, many clan organizations name their own even though no government body recognizes the title.

hm.

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Duine (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes that is in English. But in Irish you can refer to you next door neighbour or whoever as An Niallach, An Brádach etc. The person doesn't have to be a tribal chief to be refered to as such.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 745
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 07:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

ah...I thought they were paying some special deference to Joyce, but instead were just calling him "Joyce"

Understood.

under what circumstances does An prefix a 't' to 'S'? I know that's not considered true eclipsis, although I'm not entirely sure why...

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Duine (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 08:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Genetive case.For instance:

An Seoigeach - Joyce/The man called Joyce

Airgead an tSeoigigh - Joyce's money/The money of the man called Joyce.

'Seoigeach' is a masculine nouns of the first declension and so it's ending is slenderised in the genetive singular. As well as that, it is preceded by a 't' when it is masculine singular, beginning with 's' and follows the article.

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Duine (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 08:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

P.S. As regards your point of the article proceeding it implying deference, it's not deference that it implies, but familiarity. i.e. that just by saying the surname Joyce, you know who is be spoken of, because the person is universally famous(like a Gaelic chief) or is familiar to you on a personal level.



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