My family has a connection to a place called Crioch Cian.

Firstly, should this be Críoch Cian (The [Something] Region), and if so, what would Cian mean?

Secondly, my main question. What would the genitive form be? If I were to say (for lack of a better example), "The Bank of Crioch Cian" would it be "Banc Críche Céine"?

thanks.

A Antaine, a chara,

quote:

should this be Críoch Cian

I think "Cian" refers to the Ulster clan of Cian who ruled Coleraine in what is now County Derry at the time of Marcus Aurelius. They were later displaced by the O'Neil clan, and ruled by the subordinate Catháin sept (who are my ancestors so we could be very distant cousins). Since Cian is a proper noun then its genitive, Céin, must be lenited. In Irish, I believe the place name is

Críoch Chéin

which literally means

region (or territory) of Cian.

Forgive my pedantry, but your other example had a definte article in the English, and yet, the article is missing from your Irish translation. I think the genitive form you are seeking would be an example of the suspended genitive. Place names with two or more words often suspend the genitive. To form the suspended genitive you simple lenite the nominative form of the first word and everything else remains unchanged. I think Cian is a masculine noun so the genitive article would be an. Therefore, my guess is that

"The Bank of Crioch Cian"

would be translated as

Banc an Chríoch Chéin.

(Message edited by lúcas on May 10, 2006)

cupla rudaí

1 Crioch Cian is in northern Tipperary, around Ardcrony. I don't think it has an Ulster connection. It is part of the lands of a Dalcassian sept.

2 Wouldn't "The Bank of Crioch Cian" be "An Banc...etc" rather than "Banc an...etc"?

3 I'm going, for the time being, on the assumption that Crioch is Críoch, meaning a region, the fada being dropped in the english language article I was reading. If it is Críoch, meaning region, then wouldn't Cian most likely be an adjective...wouldn't it be "the expansive region" or "the far-off region" or something to that effect? (I've read alternate translations for 'cian' as adjective)

4 I'm not sure why the genitive for proper noun Críoch would be Chríoch when plain-old noun críoch has the genitive críche.

go raibh maith agat
A

Cian is also an adjective.

cian [aidiacht]
fada in achar ama nó spáis.


cian [ainmfhocal firinscneach den cheathrú díochlaonadh]
brón, lionn dubh; cumha.

cian [ainmfhocal baininscneach]
(t céin in abairtí) achar ama, aois (na cianta ó shin).

críoch [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
(crích in abairtí áirithe) teorainn (críocha na tíre, na feirme); réigiún, limistéar (críoch Laighean); deireadh; críochnú (críoch an scéil); slacht (cuir críoch éigin ort féin; duine gan chrích); socrú saoil (tá iníon eile le cur i gcrích aige).

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I'm wary to try to assign meaning to a placename without more data - names often preserve ancient grammar, or have become corrupted.

This Link suggests Críoch Chéin would be correct:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/thomond.htm

quote:

O'Hogan, chief of Crioch Cian, about Lower Ormond, in Tipperary. Notes: Crioch Chein (O'Hogan or O'Hegan), is described as one of the tuaths under Eile O'Carroll by O'Heerin (Topo. Poems).

Agus seo an dán

http://www.offalyhistory.com/content/reading_resources/archaeology/ordnance_surv ey/ordnance_letters-pt54.htm

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