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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (May-June) » Archive through May 21, 2006 » Census Data « Previous Next »

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:00 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello,

I just visited Ireland's Census Website to check out stats on the Irish language. While there I looked at the Census 2006 form.

I was suprised to see that there were only two questions concerning the language:

Can you speak Irish?
How often do you speak it? (Or something to those lines)

Now from these two questions they get pages of data...which I am still going over the information from the last census. However, I have a concern for the accuracy of the first question. It is designed to see how many people speak Irish, however, I think what needs to be asked is "how many people have any ability with Irish and to what level do they have any ability with Irish?"

Does anyone here agree with me that questions such as these might be better in establishing a better overall picture of the current status of the language?

Which of the following applies to your ability with the Irish language?
A) I can speak, read, and write Irish.
B) I can speak Irish but I can not read or write Irish.
C) I can read and write Irish but I can not speak Irish.
D) I can not speak, read, or write Irish.

How would you rate your ability with the Irish language?
A) I am a native speaker.
B) I am a fluent speaker.
C) I can hold a simple conversation with Irish.
D) I struggle with simple conversation with Irish.
E) I can not hold a simple conversation with Irish.
F) I have no understanding of Irish.

These are just suggestions, I am sure there are better questions out there. I just used these as examples.

What do the fine people of this site think?

John

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Aindréas
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Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 75
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I recall seeing detailed questions almost exactly like your fiest set in Welsh census. Part of me likes to see a census every now then, but another part is saying that our energies can be channelled into something much more profitable.

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 225
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 10:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't like these proposed types of question at all. Nobody really checks the quality of such self-reporting. Remember 1,5 milion say they "speak" the language. Similar proportions will state they "read" and "write". The only valuable data is "daily usage" - all else is just a fake patriotism.

When I was making comparison of Irish in NI and in Ireland - the problem was that in NI Census everybody was exactly stating ability to read, to write, to speak, to read and write, to write and speak and so on. In the end you have 12 different overlapping figures wherefrom you can make no real guess about real speakers with near-native ability. Not all native speakers can write Irish, neither read - if they didn't have chance to go Irish-language school. But they may be the best story-tellers in the country! But if somebody states "he speaks" - you never know what he means. Maybe it is just "GRMA" and "Dia dhuit"!

The only good indicator - "I use Irish daily while conducting my daily business".

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I liked your questions of how good one's Irish is. But like Roman I think that daily usage questions are really important.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 07:04 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello everyone, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post...

I think these types of questions are crucial...anyone who has ever tried to find out how many Irish speakers are out there, will find the numbers vary from the tens of thousands to the millions. And frankly, I am not very impressed with this. I think we have the ability to be a little more specific.

But if you take an example, such as the Irish Census, no wonder the numbers are so extreme...the questions are not very specific and leave room for error in both directions.

In response to Róman...I think we need all those overlapping figures. Why? The overlapping fingures are doing more than just giving you confusing numbers, they are showing you how the people see themselves and the language at the same time.

I think that one of the major issues facing Irish, is that there isn's a very realistic picture being painted of the current status of the language. And I don't feel that the questions asked in the census were helpful in giving an accurate picture for the Irish language. I might be wrong here, it wouldn't be the first time...

How can people make positive decisions about the language if the information they are working with is not as good as it could be? From politics to the schoolyard people are taking the numbers from the census and using them to shape their agendas...

I know I am preaching here...I really don't mean to...

It was just a thought,

John

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 08:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There ought to be questions about how well one speaks it and how often one speaks it and in what context they speak it. As it stands now people who say one or two things in Irish a day can mark the daily answer. The questions on how commonly people use it should include in what circumstances it is used, for example in business, at home, with friends, etc. Obviously it would be stated in a more formal manner than I put it. So these are the 3 things that I think must be established as census questions

How good is your Irish, choices.
How often do you speak it, choices.
In what circumstances or situations do you speak it, choices.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

PS. It would be nice if we all knew someone in the government that we could tell all of our ideas to because we've got a lot of productive ones floating around on this forum.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 734
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I wrote to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs once upon a time (as Gaeilge)

I got a blow-off form letter in English thanking me for my interest.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 11:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

Sure and I just wrote to him a second time (no response to my first attempt), about my monoglot question. That was last night and I'm waiting optimistically for an answer of some sort. Now however, after seeing what happened to yourself who wrote a regular message, I have significant doubts of getting any sort of reply. Now I know that Eamon O Cuiv himself hasn't the time to write to me, but his secretary or whomever checks his e-mail ought to at least put in some effort. I think that if the all of us were in charge a lot more would get done, though we all don't always agree, just as the real government doesn't. However I think its safe to say that we all have the best interests of the Irish language at heart.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 08:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Wow, that's really awful Riona...

But that kind of illustrates my point, the people in the positions to really help the language, such as politicians, are not getting the correct info. Most politicians are not willing to put there careers at stake unless they have the numbers to back their claims up...I know I wouldn't if I were them.

The more accurate the numbers reflect the actual state of the language, the less room for debate and argument about it.

I agree with both Róman and Riona in their statements about how people may not actually giving the most honest answers to the questions. I mean let's face it, if we know a few words and simple phrases, can we honestly say that we speak the language?

We run into this here in the States all the time with Spanish. Most schools offer four years of it, but some schools such as mine make you take 10+ years of it. Yes, it's mandatory! Now I don't have a promblem with this at all, I love learning languages...but I live in a small town with no Hispanic community. So, most of the students are like most modern Irish students...we take the classes, but data dump it when we get out of the school environment because everone is speaking English at the end of the day. We retain a few words and key phrases. But in truth, myself included, I am not sure I could hold a conversation with a Spanish speaking person if I tried :-( And I was an A student!

The real problem becomes, how do we ask as few questions as possible and get the most information from them? And more to the point, who do we get to ask the questions?

John

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 08:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sorry,

I was going to say to Aindréas, that I took your advice and went to check out the Welsh Census.

I was very impressed with not only the questions asked, but also the detailed information that was derived from them.

I hope the Irish will do the same someday. Who knows, maybe one of the reasons the Welsh can boast their increase in speakers is partly responsible because of the the fact that the people of the right stats to base their actions on?

John

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 173
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK so I happen to be crappy at census questions, go figure, that's why I don't write census questions in real life. Going by the Welsh example would probably be a good idea. As it stands now even I could mark the use Irish daily slot because I always say slan and go raibh maith agat. And if I could mark that slot then we know there's definitely something wrong with the question.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

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Mothrae
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Username: Mothrae

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 01:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Looking at this with the cynical American eye that I possess, I see the politicians messing it all up. That's what they do anymore.

In any census I would prefer a little more detail than what is asked for. In your average US census, the questions are very ambiguous, so even the races of people are not accurate, much less what language they speak, frequency, fluency, etc. Questions about religious affiliations are just as vague, and if I am not part of the Big Three, what do I answer?

I'm all for the extra details, I just hope that should it happen, the pols keep their hands off it. And don't forget the grant money and programs they'll demand to study why people would want to speak their native language in their native land.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 738
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 04:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

oh, Riona...I didn't send him a message...I sent a letter...like a real, honest-to-goodness letter on parchment with sealing wax and tied with ribbon.

probably the only reason I got any response at all.

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello again,

After posting this thread I thought it might be fun to see what the CSO would have to say about my questions...

And this morning I got my reply:

...thank you for taking an active interest in the Irish language, we welcome all questions and suggestions to provide a better census. However, while I agree your questions would provide more detailed data, the questions which appear on the census must first be approved by a committee here at the CSO and then approved by the government. The current questions are the result of years of refinement and approval to provide the information required. I will pass on your suggestions for the next review...

I don't know about you, but this sounds like a very polite way of saying, "good idea, no...now go away."

Sadly, I am not surprised.

How can they say that the questions being asked are providing accurate information? Now I am curious to find out what requirement are they trying to meet? I would hate to think that there is a government in this world who is out there playing the numbers for politics...that just doesn't sound like something a government would do...

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Alexdietz
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Username: Alexdietz

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think to get an exact picture one should send language tests to all Irish people with sentences to be translated, from simple to very difficult sentences. Then one could count points according to right translations. Furthermore one should ask about the frequency and opportunities of use. In order that many people answer the language tests one could pay f. e. 10? for doing it. Beannacht, Alex (D)

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John (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 01:22 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well,

While I for one agree it would be nice if people took such an interests in the language...I don't see anything like that happening in the near future.

To do something like that, you would need the resources and funding to be able to question everyone. And let's face it, with exception of the government, very few groups out there have the ability to pull that off. That's why I really like the census...it is government funded method for getting numbers. Just about everyone will fill out a census...however, not many people are willing to take part in private polls for information.

That's why I originally started this thread...to pose the question of why the best source for getting numbers concerning the Irish language wasn't being used to its fullest potential?

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Alexdietz
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Username: Alexdietz

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 04:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello, I think of sending language tests for each person of a household together with the census. For each language test given back I would pay a reward, perhaps 10 ¬ . Employees of Irish language organisations could evaluate the language tests similar to elections. For example a native speaker could reach 50 points. The result could be: Leinster: 0-5 p. = 28,4%, 5-10 p.= 23,6 %, 15-20 p. = 14,9 % and so on. Perhaps a great party like Sinn Féin in cooperation could also organize it. If the government has not an interest in gaining an exact picture I must doubt the serious interest in the language. Then I suppose that there is nothing but empty talk. Oíche mhaith, Alex

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 178
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 01:55 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

John is probably right because everyone fills out the census so it really would be the best way to get information, so it should at least have the right sort of questions on it, though it doesn't at present.

John, you're fortunate that someone even answered your e-mail, I'm still waiting for replies on a couple that I wrote well nye on a week ago. At this point an "I don't care about your foolish questions" response might be better than nothing at all. Maybe I must follow Antaine's example and bust out the parchment and ceiling wax.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 08:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Riona...in truth, I got the feeling that the lady who responded agreed with me, but doesn't have the power to do anything about it. (Which is always the case.)

I fear that until Ireland and the Irish people really want to bring back Irish...no one is ever going to take it very seriously.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 243
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Your test idea is not very good. If you think for a moment - only people knowing some language will fill in the test. The others will not for fear of embarassment. In the end you will have some sample of those who KNOW the tongue. What info can be deduced from it? The minimum amount of proficient users - maybe. Realistic number? No. Not everybody will be motivated or have enough time to participate - so you can't deduce that all those not responding don't know any Irish.

Only if you could make somehow the whole country to participate - then there is some sense of doing it.

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Aindréas
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Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 78
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 09:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well if you send some teams to many many houses, and they just knock at the door, greet people in Irish, and try to start up a conversation as Gaeilge, I think you'll be able to determine very fast how proficient someone is in Irish judging from how many blank stares you get.

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 180
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 03:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Aindreas, a chara,

The only trouble is that even though people come to the door and speak to me in English, which I obviously understand, I still don't like it and I try to politely get rid of them as quick as possible. Now granted since this is an important issue people might be more willing to participate than I ever am with door to door folk here in America.

Beir bua agus beannacht

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Beth (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 11:48 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I just got back from Ireland and actually took part in the census. Our B&B owner said that all of the tourists had to take it in order to keep track of tourism numbers or something like that. After answering the questions, I agree with Riona's original comments--the wording of the questions (really many of the census questions) do not provide very accurate results. Plus, having tourists fill it out is ridiculous because I could only fill out a few lines--the rest were "N/A" because I was from the US.

Also, someone else commented that the Irish seem to want to bring back the language but the government is standing in the way. Actually, the government has passed laws that are changing all road signs, etc. to Irish in the next year or so--nothing will be in English, so bone up on that map before climbing into your rental car. I completely support the peoples' choice to move to using Irish as it is their language and this is a great way to bring it back into the mainstream. I can't wait until I get back and have to re-learn placenames as many will change from the English name to its original Irish.

Just thought I'd add my two cents.

Beth

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 749
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 12:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Actually, the government has passed laws that are changing all road signs, etc. to Irish in the next year or so--nothing will be in English,"


really? do you have a link to this? that's fantastic...something i've been harping on for ages!!!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3122
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 04:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's not completely accurate.

The roadsigns TO Gaeltacht areas will be in Irish only, because the english name will have no standing in law. The roadsigns IN gaeltacht areas have been in Irish for thirty years, so only a small handful of signs will change.

The maps will be bilingual.

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 03:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This October we will be staying in the Corca Dhuibhne agus Uíbh Ráthach, flying into Shannon from Dublin where we will rent a car. Can you tell me Aonghus have you - or anyone - any idea if the maps supplied will be bilingual or must we wait to get to the Chiarrí Gaeltacht to get one?

Go raibh maith agat.

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 72
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 05:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"The maps will be bilingual."

I thought the OSI were intructed to remove the English names from their maps..?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3131
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 04:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The law refers to OS maps up to a scale of 1:9999, i.e. the large scale maps used for planning and other legal matters.

The Minister has got the agreement of the private map companies and main tour guide producers that mapping etc will be bilingual for the gaeltacht.

I've never rented a car in Ireland, Ultán, so I cant tell you.

If you plan to do a lot of local travel, I'd advise getting the 1:50000 OS maps. I'd be surprised if the maps with the car are that scale.

http://www.osi.ie/ordering/index.shtml

http://www.osi.ie/mapping/maps/maps.asp?county=Kerry

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 05:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Anyway, the mapping issue is overstated, and part of a general lack of imagination. All one has to do is match the squiggles on the page to the one on the sign. Most information is there (road, orientation, map etc) that the linguistic element is only a tiny part of it. There would be little difference if it were in Latin

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 07:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agat Aonghus for the information



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