Sean-nótaí, they may be of use or not to you:

I’ve a long article on the ‘Bata Scóir’ from ‘Féil-Sgríbhinn Eóin Mhic Néill’ 1940 [1995], p. 551-566, by Seán Ó Súilleabháin.

It’s rough, wrenching stuff. The beatings were intense.

A thin piece of bog-deal about 5 inches wide, from 8 to ten inches long in north west Co. Mayo. School administered.

A seasoned red sally or hazel rod, 6 inches to 12 inches in Co. Sligo, called ‘cipíní’. School administered.

A sally rod about 18 inches long with the bark left on, in Co. Cavan. School administered.

Called ‘tally’ in Co. Longfort, no measure given, but again, a terrible account.

A type of (Welsh) knot was used in Teileann, south west Donegal, various articles being tied to the childs neck throughout the day leading to school administered punishment in the evening. Children were not allowed to eat their lunch and kept face in and toes touching the wall from morning until 15.00. (circa 1855)

One teacher used it ‘to make a name for himself’. Died in 1869. (Co. Galway)

‘In some districts the parson visited the school and looked up the names and scores on the card so as to let the landlord know. ….. The fear of the punishment, which was more severe the oftener the children were found speaking Irish, made many of them stay from school altogether, and this is why so many of the old people were without the learning.’ Co. Longfort.

I wonder where the parents were when their children have been systematically abused at school? Or they felt it is "OK"?

Chuidigh siad leis an gcóras sin cinnte a Rómain, tá a fhios againn, ach is cinnte leis go mbeadh dream nach beag díobh idir dhá thine Bhealtaine mar gheall air.

Níl córas seo an bhata scoir mar fhoghlaim teanga chomh aisteach is a shíltear.

Mar shampla, Mairtín Liútear, an fear a bhí crosta leis an Phápa, bhí an córas chéanna i bhfeidhm ina scoil Laidne agus é ag fás aníos

Róman
parents until very recently felt it to be OK for schools to beat and humiliate children. I am perhaps the last age (25) who recalls punishment in school by teachers. By our time it was psychological mostly, altho I do recall blood coming from the top of the head of a child after repeated striks by a biro (type of pen). This was coupled with 'you fat lump you, you fat lump you' from the ahem, 'teacher'.

Neither my parents nor other saw any need in complaining about it.

Things have changed so much that prior to that techer leaving a few years ago, a 4 year old had kicked her, and told her to 'fuck off!'. Nothing was done about it nor was there any punishment. Schools now know there will be litigation if what I saw as a kid were to be attempted again. While the compo-culture has much to do with it, those who have kids increasenly did not allow for it.

The above was in primary school. I personally used to ahve nightmares most nights before going to school during the periods when the abse was most intense. There was even a period when our main lunch break was shortened to 5 minutes a day for many weeks.

Examples are such as been put in front of the class in a court-room style arrangement, where kids were forced to sell each other out till finally a victim for some 'crime' that never occured is finally selected were general occurances

Now-a-days kids can be seen playing outside the school, and only younger (less than 30 years old) teachers work there, so it seesm that a sea change has occured.

I'll show you how powerful such thing were -by my protests to my parents to intervene and their lack of action, you can see (and *feel*) the powerlessness that such activity was designed to engender and what sort of eunuchs it could produce. The feeling that my parents are traitors has never left; so what it is like for those who were in the system when sexual abuse was common, I cannot imagine.

However not all parents took this lying down -the school was split in half when the parents from one side of the parish nearest the local town took out all the children in unison due to such crap and never allowed them back. That was 20 years ago, and until recently, this had a legacy effect with no chidlren from that side ever going to the school.

I think such deference to authority was ingrained to country people. But very much worse stuff happened before this. Each generation prior, it just gets worse and worse.

The intersting thing is that of the town side of the parish, the parents are more likely to be business poeple and thier kids do better in college. On the side of the parish which was deferrent, most pople work for the government as civil servents etc. Go figure...

A Sheosamh,

If you have that article and could put a link up to it I'd be interested in reading it,

A Riona, a Chomhalta,
The article is on-book as against being on-line! What you have above is my rehash of some emails as is some of the following.

The effect on the child can be seen in this account from 1853 on the bottom right side of page 3 here: www.obrien.ie/resources/UHTWorkbookEpisode2.pdf

It’s notable in a way that there hasn’t been more comment on the matter on the net and in print elsewhere.

Probably a sign of how the wound hasn’t been healed.

The Welsh scene from the following source: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2004/06/noone_to_talk_t.html :

Although it seems hard to believe, only two generations ago people like my granddad were not allowed to speak their native language in school. Welsh was officially regarded as a language of backwardness, English was the language of the future and, to ensure that the next generation grew up English-speaking, Welsh was not to be used in school, even on the playground. The policy was known informally as “Welsh – Not!”. In my grandad’s time, it was enforced by means of a knotted rope: a child heard speaking Welsh in school would wear the rope round his or her neck, until another child was reported to the teacher for speaking Welsh, and the rope would pass to him or her. At the end of the day, the child wearing the knotted rope got a beating with it. The rope was called the “Welsh Knot”. It was a play on words, see? A “Welsh Knot” to enforce the “Welsh - Not!”!!! Very funny.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents about what Robert said about deference to authority.

A few years ago, I read about an experiment (I think it was called The Milgram Experiment) where more than two-thirds of the people who were being tested would deliver what they thought were severely painful electric shocks to someone, when instructed to do so by an authority figure.

Most people were uncomfortable doing this - some trembled, some wept, some protested to the authority figure - but they still continued to obey the authority figure even when the machine was turned up all the way, to a level that they believed was dangerous. Any protestations were overcome by simply saying "The experiment requires that you continue." This simple statement from a man wearing a white lab coat was all it took for most people to do as they were told no matter what he said.

Of course, there are numerous examples throughout history and unfortunately at the present time (am I allowed to mention Dubya on this site?) that demonstrate most people's obedience to immoral authority. This is something that cruel school teachers of the past and corrupt politicians of the present have understood very well.

"Sure and I've heard of that experiment it was mentioned in a couple of my classes and it is the most frightfull thing. The most freakish part of the experiment is that it was quite accurate and as mentioned above it has proven true time after time and I know that, as advanced as the human race thinks it is, foolish people will undoubtably prove it to be true again in the future. That is why we each must be vigilant and carefull and mind ourselves.

Children beaten for speaking Irish and the horrors of the famine have to be the most upsetting chapters of Irish history :( I can't bear to read any of it.

It seems to me that really important subjects are notorious for being ignored or avoided. You just can't find information on them, especially in the Irish sector. I don't know if people just don't want to talk about things, the if we ignore it then it might go away excuse, or if it just hurts too much, or if people just plain aren't aware because they are perfectly content to live in their pop culture influenced world.

I've seen the film of that experiment being conducted. It is frightening what people will do when a person of authority tells them it's OK.