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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (May-June) » Archive through May 08, 2006 » Connacht Dialect Help « Previous Next »

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 05:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I have a number of questions on the first 7 lessons of Learning Irish. Can anyone help?


Lesson 3.
1. Proper nouns in genitive relation are lenited, eg cóta Cháit. But no indication is given about non-proper nouns. Are they not lenited? If not, why not?
Lesson 5.
2. "Almost all" prepositions followed by the article take eclipsis. This is clearly no reference grammar of Connacht Irish, and there is no reference grammar in an appendix. What does "almost all" mean? Is this cleared up later in the book?
Lesson 7.
3. What is meant by the dot underneath the "t" in Ó Siadhail's transcription of "bheadh sé"?
4. After "most nouns" a plural adjective adds an unstressed vowel. Once again, this is clearly no reference grammar of Connacht Irish. The examples in the text include "feilméaraí soibhir", which is therefore an example of an adjective that is not modified. Is there a list of such adjectives?
5. The vocative plural: it seems very unsatisfactory to say that "a few nouns" have a special vocative plural form. Do all the nouns belonging to a certain one of the 5 declensions have this special form? In other words, is Ó Siadhail being coy in not wanting to raise the subject of declensions? Or is it really the case that only a few nouns retain a special vocative plural form Connemara Irish, and if so, which ones?
6. Does anyone know how to pronounce "a fheara"? Is it "@ jar@"?

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 199
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 06:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

2. - "don", "den" are followed by lenition. "go dtí an" is followed by nominative, so feminine nouns are lenited, masculine - no. All "complex" prepositions like "in aice" are followed by genitive.

3. dental "t"?

5. all 1st declension nouns have special vocative forms

a fheara - /a:r@/

Wait for others

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Maidhc_Ó_g
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Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 196
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

1. You'll find this info in chapters 25 and 27.

3. I'm not sure how to explain that. I think, where some speakers may give /t'/ somewhat of an Englich 'ch as in cheer' sound, this "t with the under dot" is slightly softer in effect. Kinda like forming your tongue on the back of the upper front teeth to form a 'th as in teeth' - but then blowing out creating a middle t sound rather than holding the position to get the 'th' sound. At least if the "t with and under dot is at the beginning or in the middle of a word. At the end of a word, I'd think it's more of a soft dental stop. More with with this sound are given in Appendix I on page 215. Perhaps they may also be on the tapes if you have them.

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 97
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi!

Lesson 3.
1. Proper nouns in genitive relation are lenited, eg cóta Cháit. But no indication is given about non-proper nouns. Are they not lenited? If not, why not?
Lesson 5.
2. "Almost all" prepositions followed by the article take eclipsis. This is clearly no reference grammar of Connacht Irish, and there is no reference grammar in an appendix. What does "almost all" mean? Is this cleared up later in the book?


Everythings is explained in due time there. You can consult any grammarbook, the two issues are dealt in the Standard exactly as in CF Irish except for the “sa” (in the) that causes eclipsis in CF Irish and more extent usage of the Nom. form instead of the Gen. one (esp. when there’s no article accompanying the noun; mostly only one form of a noun in the plural).

Lesson 7.
3. What is meant by the dot underneath the "t" in Ó Siadhail's transcription of "bheadh sé"?


That’s how Ó Siadhail marks the alveolar /t d/, they are pronounced exactly the same as the English /t d/, thus “té” will sound somewhat very similar to “tay” (with long /e:/ instead of the diphthong in fact).

bheadh sé /v’et. ∫e:/: feel free to say it like “vetchay” (pay attention to the long /e:/ and slender /v’/).

There a table at the very end where the transcribing system adopted in the book is explained.

6. Does anyone know how to pronounce "a fheara"? Is it "@ jar@"?

/`æ:rə/. Why? a /ə/ + fheara /`æ:rə/, the schwa merges with the vowel leaving no traces of itself (that’s the standard rule, applies everywhere. Check the last pages of the book, he speaks a lot about it there).

Before passing to the two items left I’d like to make a point, so to be sure it’s clear enough.

CF Irish is a dialect, that implies that is not standardised, i.e. there are not, nor ever can there be, strict grammar rules listed down and ennumerated. Very little is in fact fixed and stable in the dialect, what there is are just tendencies. Some follow that one, some tend to say it the other way round. You can’t look for the standard here, for even an Caighdeán allows variety. Here’s an example to illustrate the scale of dispertion: “before” (conjunction) sol má /soL mα:, sa:L mα:, hoL mα:, soL mo:, hoL mo:, xoL mα:, sel’ mα:, xα:L mα:, xumLα:, xumLo:, humLo:, xumo:/. The most wonderful thing about it is that “the list is not full, most probably” (taken from de Bhaldraithe’s “an Deilbhíocht” (Morphology of CF Irish)).

Young people on the whole tend to use more analtic grammar, the older folks may stick to synthetic grammar of yore. But the point is that both “obair na bhfir láidir” and “obair na bhfir láidire” (the work of the strong men) belong to CF Irish, and even “obair na bhfear láidir”, I assume, may now be accepted by the locals as well (though strictly speaking there’s no special Gen. Pl. form in the dialect). “Future is in metisation”, a dúirt a té a dúirt.

4. After "most nouns" a plural adjective adds an unstressed vowel. Once again, this is clearly no reference grammar of Connacht Irish. The examples in the text include "feilméaraí soibhir", which is therefore an example of an adjective that is not modified. Is there a list of such adjectives?

No.

daoine saidhbhir & daoine saidhbhire, daoine dílse, but rudaí milis;
daoine dall, ar feadh nóiméadachaí beaga gearr, fir mhall & maidí gearra, bóithrí cama;
fataí beaga bána & pócaí falamh bocht, na hughdarachaí ceart etc.etc.etc.


There’s a tendency not to add /ə/ to the adjectives like “saidhbhir, milis, dílis, láidir, socair” or not to change those monosyllabic ones that end in m (like cam, lom), nn (gann, teann, donn), ll (dall, mall), rr (gearr). In fact you may as well leave /ə/ out all the time (daoine mór, tí beag etc.) or (what seems the best here) follow the rules of the Standard.


5. The vocative plural: it seems very unsatisfactory to say that "a few nouns" have a special vocative plural form. Do all the nouns belonging to a certain one of the 5 declensions have this special form? In other words, is Ó Siadhail being coy in not wanting to raise the subject of declensions? Or is it really the case that only a few nouns retain a special vocative plural form Connemara Irish, and if so, which ones?

Ó Siadhail did a fair whack of hard work, and what he provides in his book is an attempt to bring the facts together and show the tendencies that prevail in speech. You can’t ask more, if it is a few nouns, that will imply that the set is indefinable (see further exx), there are some that usually have a special Voc. Pl. form (e.g. fear > a fheara! “men!”, a fhearaibh! /æ:rəv’/; or deabhal > a dheabhla! “devils!”), but they may be freely used in the common plural form as vocatives (e.g. as most other nouns, a amadáin! “fools!”, a ghasúir! “boys!”). The most general rule is that in the vocative nouns are used in their usual plural form. Some nouns of the 1st declention (what remained of it) have special forms (a fheara, a chréatúrachaí). Those nouns of the first declention that have 2 forms (the one that is similar to the Gen. Sn. & the other – the “long” – is built with a suffix), are mostly used in the “long” form in the vocative. Again, these are only tendencies, no strict rules.

Le meas, Peter

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 12:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dear all, thank you for your answers, and a special thank you to Peter for writing so much. I now understand the point about the lack of standardisation of dialects, so that vagueness is required on some points.

Can I ask one more question? If deartháir is pronouonced d'r'a:r', and driofúr is pronounced d'r'aur, how are the respective vocatives pronounced?

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 03:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

a dheartháir!, a dhriofúr!

/ə jr’α:r’/, /ə jr’aur/ resp.

Tá mé ag foghlaim na canúna céanna, mé féin, dála an scéil.

Tá fáilte romhat!

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David Webb (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 12:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hmm! Peter, I not sure I could actually say /ə jr’α:r’/ or /ə jr’aur/. Is it even possibly to enunciate a /j/ before a /r’/ and make it audible? Do you think that these might actually be enunciated in more natural speech simply as /ə r’α:r’/, /ə r’aur/ respectively?

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 103
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 02:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is it even possibly to enunciate a /j/ before a /r’/ and make it audible?

100% possible and 100% audible, they say, why can't you then? It's just the matter of how hard you try to. And, these two forms, the vocatives, I mean, are very common since they are ordinary forms of addressing a man and a woman ( like bruvah 'n' sistah ;))



Do you think that these might actually be enunciated in more natural speech simply as /ə r’α:r’/, /ə r’aur/ respectively?

Na. It'd sound like /jr’α:r’/, /jr’aur/ then.



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