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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (May-June) » Archive through May 08, 2006 » In comram beus! « Previous Next »

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1299
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 07:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

On with the contest! I went back to Freagra, the new helpline, with another question. Seo agaibh an cheist a chuir mé agus an freagra a fuair mé (ó Dhonncha Ó Cróinín) tráthnóna inniu:

Tá ceist eile agam duit/do "Fhreagra!" Nuair a dhéantar cuardach Google leis an bhfocal "Éireann", faightear "ar Éireann", "go hÉireann" etc. go flúirseach, chomh maith le "ar Éirinn", "go hÉirinn", etc. An bhfuil an litriú "Éireann" tar éis na réamhfocail "ar, go, de," le moladh ar chor ar bith?

Níl, go bhfios domsa! Ar ndóigh, maireann sé i dteideal an amhráin "Ar Éireann Ní Neosfainn Cé hÍ" agus freisin i dteideal sheanleabhar an Chéitinnigh, "Foras Feasa ar Éireann" ach bhí siad sin ann i bhfad sular tháinig an caighdeán isteach....!!

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3071
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 07:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Cheapfainn gur eisceacht "Ar Éireann Ní Neosfainn Cé hÍ"

Ní "ar" sa chiall mullach atá i gceist, ach "dá bhfaigheann Éire mar luach saothair ar a hainm a sceitheadh".

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Pangur_dubh
Member
Username: Pangur_dubh

Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 06:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Eisceacht, a Aonghuis? B'féidir. Ach bheinn an-amhrasach faoi, mar is ginideach soiléir an fhoirm "Éireann". Sé mo thuairim ná go mb'fhéidir gur foirm iomrallach í a bhunaigh í féin go buan ar teanga agus in intinn na ndaoine de bharr an amhráin. Ach tá an ghramadach gan aon éideimhne:

Ainmneach: Éire
Ginideach: Éireann
Tabharthach: Éirinn

Agus chun bheith cruinn, níor bhuail mé, ach amháin sa chás seo, le húsáid na foirme ginidí "Êireann" in ionad na foirme Tabharthaí. Mar sin, cloím le mo thuairim.

Ach is rud aisteach ar fad é.

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caitriona (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 02:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Re. In Comram beus

Ar bhuaidh Cet an comórtas?

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1318
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 07:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

ní maith liom bheith ag troid is níl fonn troda orm.

I think we need to air this out, starting from the beginning. You wrote:

You can only use the form ‘Éirinn’ if it’s preceded by ‘in.’ Otherwise it’s Éireann, or sometimes hEireann depending on the preposition in front of it. In Éirinn - Yes. Ar Éireann - No.

I wrote:

Tá dul amú ort ansin, a Chaitríona. Úsáidtear "Éirinn" tar éis réamhfhocal simplí ar bith: in Éirinn, faoi Éirinn, d'Éirinn, etc. An tuiseal tabharthach atá ann.

= You're mistaken there, Caitríona. "Éirinn" is used after any simple preposition: in Éirinn, faoi Éirinn, d'Éirinn, etc. It's the dative case.

You wrote:

'Bhfuil tú cinnte? = Are you sure?

Thereafter, I researched the question fully and presented you with a mound of evidence that were wrong on this point of grammar. And several of the local grammar mavens said the same. All this argument culminated a few days ago when even the Freagra hotline chimed in against you. Instead of simply saying "bhí dul amú orm", you have refused to yield to reason or evidence. Your first little gambit was to try to derail the argument -- like a good politician! -- by abandoning the underlying dispute entirely and bringing in Deborah Tannen and gender communication politics. Your most recent gambit, after reading what Donncha Ó Cróinín had to say, was to absolutely ignore him and his straightforward rejection of your formula (in bold above), and to go off on an utterly irrelevant tangent about Cet (so that if anyone bit, you could draw a moral from it about the futility of fighting, no doubt).

I don't know whether to believe you when you say "ní maith liom bheith ag troid" (= I do not like to fight). What I see clearly is that you're stubborn as hell (like me) and hate to lose, and you will use any devices necessary to avoid admitting that you are wrong on a harmless little point of grammar. Yes, I'm angry at you. If you want us to make up, you can start by admitting your formulation above, in bold, was wrong. We all get things wrong.

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Caitriona (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 08:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

...just as you ignored the advice from the lady from Eolas.

We have to agree to disagree on this Dennis. I truly do not like fighting but I am stubborn (or persistent) when I believe something to be true and worth defending.

Just like before when the topic got too hot on religion, I'll back away because I do not want anyone to be angry. On the grand scale of things in life, this is small.
It's often hard to interpret the written word. The above query on Cet was done tongue in cheek and in a spirit of fun. Fágfaidh mé sibh ar feadh tamaillín arís. Ná bí feargach led' thoil.
Slán

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 197
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 03:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Caitriona, what is the point of arguing that dative of "Éire" is not "Éirinn"? It contradicts any dictionary, any grammar, anything? This is what you call "i don't like to fight"? Fight, if there is some sense to argue - but "Éireann" vs "Éirinn" after prepositions is a lost case.

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DJW (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 05:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis, thank you providing an English translation of the dispute.

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Robert (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"We have to agree to disagree on this Dennis. I truly do not like fighting but I am stubborn (or persistent) when I believe something to be true and worth defending."

Can I interject -I'm no grammar head, but I have this to say. This is not a qualitative situation. No opinions count. If the written language uses the dative form after simple prepositons, then in a case where no options are allowable, that's it.

You cannot say that 'am' and 'nam' from Scots Gaelic are OK in Irish just because you feel they are. When DJW told me my Q & D instructions for /r'/ could lead to apical realisation, I thought ya, and I'd better come up with a different instruciton, or try to qualify it and give sound samples. 'Feeling' it could be OK would not make it correct. And since the instructions are derived from a proprioceptive space there is even more reason to be careful.

Surely a reasoned give and take can allow for better learning (and since you are a teacher it is your duty to hone your knowledge)



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