Hi all. I'm starting to label stuff around my room in Irish. I'm searching down the words for the following items. I'd like them all in the the singular form with the definite article. Can you check them for me?

coat hook (just things on the back of my door on which I hang sweatshirts, jackets etc.) - an crochadán
light switch - an lasc
carpet - an cairpéad
chair - an chathaoir
bed - an leaba
pillow - an piliúr (or an cheannadhairt??)
drawer - an tarraiceán
book shelf - ??
(reading type of) lamp - an lampa
dresser (for clothes) - an drisiúr
trash can - an bosca bruscair
wall - an balla
ceiling - an shíleáil
floor - an t-urlár
closet - an clóiséad
desk - an dheasc
night stand (a small table beside the bed for clock, lamp etc) - ??
radio - an raidió
alarm clock - ??
window - an fhuinneog
tissues (for blowing the nose) - an uigepháipéar

So you all basically just got a tour by object of my room. XD Thanks to anyone who can help.

book shelf - leabhragán or seilf leabhair
alarm clock - clog aláraim

I'd use
ciarsúr [ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
cearnóg bheag éadaigh le cuimilt den tsrón nó de na súile; brat cinn nó brád.

even for paper tissues - I've never heard your term.

(Message edited by aonghus on April 23, 2006)

Coat hook - an pionna cóta; crúca cóta
Carpet - an brat urláir
bookshelf - an tseilf leabhar

Dresser - in Ireland this would almost invariably mean an piece of furniture for storing, as a display, the household's delft/delph/crockery. This is rendered as -an drisiúr. think the kind of dresser you have in mind is more like a wardrobe - an tAlmóir or an Vardrús

Ceiling - an síleáil...No lenition of 's' following 'n'. Just try saying it!

Desk - an deasc - no lenition. An dheasc sounds ugly and is difficult to say in the Irish sound system.

Night stand - I use bord oíche

Alarm clock - clog dúisithe/clog aláirim

Tissues - Uige means a woven fabric. Ciarsúr will probably be ok, though.

A: ceiling - an shíleáil

PD: an síleáil...No lenition of 's' following 'n'. Just try saying it!

Is fíor duit faoin easpa séimhithe, a Phanguir (cé gur féidir liomsa an shíleáil a rá gan dua dá laghad), ach an bhfuil tú sásta le an síleáil anois, agus tú ag breathnú uirthi arís?

Hi Dennis,
Is it possible that this is an tsíleáil?
C

Gabh mo leithscéal Dennis. Cheap mé i ndáiríre nár thuig tú ach feicim anois nach raibh tú ag iarraidh an freagra a thabhairt amach go heasca.

Sooo … um, Aindréas doesn't speak Irish yet. And he has no idea if people are saying things helpful to him or not. ^_^ So if you're adressing me, if would be useful to do so in English (or Spanish, or something that's not Irish).

I don't understand why deasc and síleáil wouldn't lenite after the article. Are they not feminine?

Go raibh maith agat a Aonghus agus a Phangur. You all are most helpful!

(Message edited by Aindréas on April 23, 2006)

Ah, Aindreas, you have hit the nail on the head.

This is why there was recently a thread here with 100+ posts complaining about this threads-descending-into-complex-Irish issue.

It's as if we were in a beginners' class, and a couple of students from the advanced class came in and just started speaking in fluent Irish. I'm glad they can do that, but they certainly aren't helping anyone in the beginners' class.

In a real classroom situation, it simply wouldn't be tolerated--not in any class I've ever been in. My wife's a professor of legal writing, and she certainly wouldn't tolerate it.

Why it's tolerated here, I don't know.

Because this is not a classroom.
It's more like a pub.

A question is answered - all of Aindreás' original ones were. Something about the answer catches someone's eye, and an offshoot starts. And since the new question is addressed to a fluent speaker, it's in Irish.

Also, I often post in Irish for those people who are able for it - sometimes I or somebody else will translate my post later - giving people a chance to hone their skills.

There is no classification on this site - it's a public arena, with (almost) no holds barred.

Pangur explained why síleáil isn't lenited.

quote:

Pangur explained why síleáil isn't lenited.

Go bhfios dom, in all living dialects bar Cois Fhairrge (in some instances, like dative masculine) "s-" words are perfectly lenitable after definite article. So in this particular case being a feminine gives a lenited beginning:

an tsíleáil

"An síleáil" is a simple mistake. This word is no different from "an tsráid".

quote:

Is fíor duit faoin easpa séimhithe

As you, a Dhonncha, know in this particular case we are dealing exactly with séimhiú. It is only by spelling convention that we don't write "ant shíleáil", but "an tsíleáil", but it doesn't change the essence of the thing.

So to sum up, the rule is: whenever we have lenition after definite article "an" (and by extension "aon" in some dialects) "s-" (as well as "sr-", "sl-", "sn-") becomes "ts-".

quote:

Carpet - an brat urláir

Yes, if it is some all-floor-covering stuff that is cut in order to fit the floor. But if it is a traditional carpet - rectangular thing with some ornament on it - I think it is "ruga". But I might be mistaken ?

Le meas

The primary rule is that masculine nouns don't get a séimhiú, and that feminine nouns do:

an capall
an madra
an bord
an buachaill

an chaoi
an fhilíocht
an bhéim
an fhadhb

Rule Number 2: DoTS after DeNTaLS. Even if the noun is feminine don't give it a séimhiú after "an" if it begins with d, t or s.

an duais
an téip
an donacht
an tóraíocht

Rule Number 3: If it begins with an "s", masculine nouns are unchanged, while feminine nouns are prefixed with a "t":

an siúcra
an seomra

an tsráid
an tseift

Rule Number 4: If it begins with a vowel, masculine nouns are prefixed with "t-", and feminine nouns remain unchanged:

an t-asal
an t-arán

an áit
an ordóg


That's pretty much it.

Aindréas --I wrote in Irish to Pangur Dubh to point out what I think was an inadvertent error he made, giving him a chance to take a second look and revise what he wrote. The day is well along in France by now and we haven't heard back from PD, so I'll complete the thought.

"Síleáil", as you've noted, is a feminine noun, which in most cases lenite after the article. One exception to this rule applies to nouns that begin with 's'. Rather than lenite, the /s/ changes to /t/, which is shown in the spelling by sticking a 't' in front of the 's':

súil - an tsúil
slí - an tslí (yes, you can pronounce /tl/!)
síleáil - an tsíleáil

There are some words, however, that begin with consonant clusters that simply cannot be pronounced (as PD said) if you try to mutate them in any way. So we leave them alone! For example:

spairn (= contention, a fem. noun) - an spairn (since "an tspairn" is unsayable as /tp/)

(Message edited by dennis on April 24, 2006)

Aindréas,
Re: I don't understand why deasc and síleáil wouldn't lenite after the article. Are they not feminine?

It's true you do add the h as the second letter to feminine nouns but not if they begin with an 's' or with a vowel.
If the word begins with an 's', you put a 't-' in front of it. If it begins with a vowel you don't change it.

Masc..............................Fem.
an fear (the man)......... an bhean (the woman)
an coileach (the rooster). an chearc (the hen)
an doras (the door)...... an fhuinneog (the window)
an sruth (the stream)..... an tsráid (the street)
an t-úll (the apple)........ an ubh (the egg)

A student pointed out to me yesterday that when we're talking about 'h' and the feminine, it's the opposite rule when we're doing my, your, his, and her. In this case 'her' is the one that doesn't take 'h':
mo chóta (my coat)
do chóta (your coat)
a chóta (his coat)
a cóta (her coat)

I hope this helps :)
C

Heavens, We all wrote in at the same time! :)

Correction: I wrote t- where it should have been t. Ooops
:)
C

I think that the MOST beneficial aspect of this site is that folks respond in Irish. It forces me, and probably others to get out the dictionary (or visit one of the online dictionary sites) and struggle a little. Of course if we can't figure something out after struggling a little, there's always someone here, usually the poster who originally wrote in Irish, who will help explain it all.

quote:

Because this is not a classroom.
It's more like a pub.

Pionta, le do thoil!

> Because this is not a classroom.
> It's more like a pub.

Gabh mo leithsceal! I was looking for a site named Daltai ("students"). I must've come across the Teach Tabhairne ("pub") site by mistake.

:-)

In any case, even if we were in a pub having this discussion, wouldn't you consider it extremely rude if--in the middle of the conversation (rather than off to the side by themselves)--two of the speakers spoke in Irish that one or more of the conversants didn't understand?

A Dhearg, a chara,

I can understand your point. But where I think the difference lies is that we beginners need to be exposed to folks speaking and writing in Irish. It's very hard for me to understand the postings in Irish, but each and every time I learn something from them. And isn't that the point of this website - to learn Irish?

So I think that's why many of the more capable folks here respond in Irish. I sincerely think that they do it to help us out. I don't think they're trying to be rude. And as you might agree, whenever we beginners ask for clarification in English, somebody chips in and helps us out.

I can't think of a better way to learn Irish than to have someone speak or write it and for me to follow along as best as I can.

Maith thú a Dhennis! D'aimsigh tú an botún go cruinn. Mo náire mé! An tsíleáil, gan dabht ar bith! :-)

And thanks for taking up the cudgel in providing the "t" before síleáil after the definite article. I'd already done it with "an tseilf" earlier in that posting, but too vigorous a celebration of la fête de Saint Georges yesterday dulled my matutinal prestidigitational powers on the keyboard, and all but took the light from my eye forever. Pastis was invented by the Devil himself!

At this stage, not only is the day well along in France, but from your point of view, it's already tomorrow here!

As to unsayability (is there such a word?), euphony can often be a good guide as to what is permissible or otherwise.

Scríobh Róman:

quote:

As you, a Dhonncha, know in this particular case we are dealing exactly with séimhiú. It is only by spelling convention that we don't write "ant shíleáil", but "an tsíleáil", but it doesn't change the essence of the thing.

I missed seeing this message earlier. Sorry! Is fíor duit, agus is maith an míniú é sin.

Thanks all for the helpful clarification. I do remember reading now that the s- should lenite to ts-, so I should have known. And now I also know that d- does not lenite, even if it's a feminine noun. Most helpful! =D

Just to clarify, I have no problem with discussions turning into Irish, I was just confused if Dennis was saying something to me or about the question I asked. Yes, I do try to pull out the dictionary and pick apart words, but I just started studying Irish last week, so it's little help. Go raihb maith agat aris!

Aindréas,

a small addition - not only "d", but "t" as well don't get lenited after article "an". So you have "an tine" - which is feminine.

To confuse everybody more:

the reason there is no eclipses in words like "ar an doras" in Conamara (and caighdeán) is precisely the same - the words starting with "d" and "t" are lenited after preposition+alt. And as "d" and "t" don't lenite - you don't have any change. Freaky, ain't it?

Le meas

I hope you all are fully aware of the fact that you are talking of the original dentals and not of the alveolar ones in the loan words.

Le meas, Peter

>> not the alveolars

Sounds more correct.

Well, to make it clearer - or more complicated - I wanted to remind you of the alveolar /t d/ that are found in the Enlish borrowings and are not subject to lenition at all (in Connemara, at least). Only the alveolar /t/ seems to be eclipsed into the alveolar /d/.

I think it is only Conamara phenomenon. In Múscraí younger people use alveolars (at least for slender sounds) anyway, so there is no such distinction