Does anyone know what's the ratio of postings from men and from women here? I'm curious because in school it always seemed that the girls were more interested in languages and I may be wrong but I think we're well outnumbered here. Just curious,
C

quote:

in school it always seemed that the girls were more interested in languages

That's because the boys were more interested in girls! :)

All kidding aside, I don't know what the ratio is, but if it makes you feel any better a few years ago I had a Daltái class for a semester where everybody else, including the teacher, were women.

It's a general feature of the internet that women are wary of identifying themselves as such, which might skew the apparent ratio.

A Chaitriona, a chara,

I think you're very right and I've been noticing that from the start. I don't see that many women posting here at all. I doubt though that too many people here are really women pretending to be men as may be the case other places for safety reasons. I can only think of about 5 women who post here with any frequency at present.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Dia dhaoibh,

Just to spill some oil into bonfire. Although I know what happened to Harvard's dean lately, I will risk quoting sociological research that in passing on minority languages to their children women are much more likelier to abandon even their native tongue in favour of majority's language than men are. Practically it means that in Ireland the usage of Irish at advanced ages is skewed very much towards men. Some manifestation of this is also visible at this site. Actually one may dare to state that Irish women have been instrumental in rapid decline of Irish language in Ireland as they didn't deem it advantageous for their children to be raised through Irish.

And yes, I know there are exceptions - but those do not invalidate my point.

You'll notice that I (and some other women) will occasionally write a short response helping someone.

But, as a woman, I find that many of the discussions on this board tend to degenerate into personal attacks. And I think it's to the credit of the female lurkers that we do little to fuel or encourage these attacks.

Perhaps when some of the boys learn to act like men, women will participate in fuller force. But I have no intention to post in order to be attacked over a minor grammatical point or because I write in one dialect as opposed to another. If I wanted to see adults act like children, I could go to Clár Plé Beo. I've got better things to do with my time -- including, shockingly enough, passing what little I know of this language and my own to my son.

There are exceptions, and there are plenty of men who are not involved with attacks. Those of you know how to mind your manners know who you are.

Ah Nicole, do you remember the song from My Fair Lady, a duet between Henry Higgins and Pickering, in which they repeatedly ask each other Why can't a woman be more like a man?

http://www.reelclassics.com/Musicals/Fairlady/lyrics/fairlady-whycantawoman.htm

How about "Why can't a man (everyone of them a little boy at heart) be more like a woman?"

Incidentally, I'm astonished not to have any reply from you after I took the trouble to reply to your e-mail questions about learning Old Irish in some detail.

Thanks Riona, Nicole, Student of Irish, and Aonghus,
Aonghus, I think Riona is right. I don't really think women are hiding their gender here. I could be wrong but I don't think that's the problem. Nicole expressed what I've felt strongly too. I want to pass on my language to my children but I have to say that I don't want my daughter to go online and read some of the posts in Irish dealing with the male anatomy that I find offensive and often off topic. I also feel attacked at times. At other times I notice that people acknowledge the contributions of male contributors but ignore mine.
It is about respect and respectful language. Thankfully there are many, like you Aonghus, who make us feel welcome here but I think the tone of many responses keeps women away. A recent example is the lady who asked for the translation of Saol Nua. She has just come out of an abusive relationship and felt that she had started an argument. She doesn’t need that agro nor do we.
Róman,
When it comes to respect for women Róman, what can I say? Harvard’s dean got what he deserved and maybe at some point in your life you’ll respect the huge contribution of women to the language. Would I be wrong in thinking you’ve no statistics or evidence to back up your idea that we’re responsible for the decline of the language?
Deep sigh.
The fact remains that this forum would be enriched and more balanced if we had more female participation.

Buíochas mór do na fir go léir atá cineálta linn anseo :)!!!

quote:

A recent example is the lady who asked for the translation of Saol Nua. She has just come out of an abusive relationship and felt that she had started an argument. She doesn’t need that agro nor do we.

Ní thuigim. I just reviewed that whole thread. There is nothing in it that in any way in any way attacked or belittled the asker. In terms of "argument" I couldn't find anything stronger than your own words:

quote:

Sorry student of tattoos, Aonghus is right. 'Saol nua' is the best and I'm afraid 'beo nua' is just wrong. It means 'alive new' and it doesn't make sense.

We had a perfectly appropriate discussion of the nuances and semantic boundaries of the various words for "life" in Irish, and there was certainly nothing in the asker's original post to suggest that she needed "special handling" -- nor did you, as the female participant, go out of your way to reach out to the asker in any especially feminine or sympathetic way.

Feicim nár léigh tú leabhar Deborah Tannen fós.

quote:

Mná na hÉireann, cá bhfuil sibh?

A Chaitriona, a chara, if you titled this thread as "Mná na Gaeilge, cá bhfuil sibh?" perhaps more women would respond to this thread.

I hope you don't find my suggestion argumentative, as I understand from your posting above that you consider arguing to be a bad thing.

The last Irish class I went to (before I had to stop attending because it was too far) was mostly women. Both of the teachers were female, and I think about 3/4 of the students were women. But I was also the youngest person, everyone else was (were?) adults.

I think that women in general are better at languages than men? I remember reading that somewhere, and from what I've seen in language classes in my high school it sounds like it has some truth.

On average, about 2/3 of my students are female; I suspect that many would avoid discussion groups like this simply because of the frequency with which acrimony needlessly arises.

I wonder if the menfolk here would be better behaved if more ladies were present; or must the men first learn to mind their manners before ladies will be bothered to join us here?

A Dhennis, bhí Seachtain na Páise ann do Nicole agus domsa an tseachtain seo caite (bhí an Pascha againne inné); mar sin bhíomar an-ghnóthach le déanaí, ag dul chun Liotúirge gach lá.

quote:

Feicim nár léigh tú leabhar Deborah Tannen fós.

Okay, okay, léifidh mé é, tar éis dom Harry Potter y la Orden del Fénix a chríochnú. Tá 893 leathanach ann, áfach, agus tá mé ar lch 65 anois. Thóg sé trí seachtaine orm HP y el cáliz de fuego a léamh, agus ní raibh ann ach 635 leathanach. Ach luath nó mall...

quote:

bhí an Pascha againne inné

Suimiúil! Cén féilire é sin?

The gender make-up of this site hasn't much of anything to do with my opinion of it. I seem to be the only woman who posts on heated discussion threads, I rather enjoy them as long as people don't make personal attacks on each other and blatently write cruel things just because they can. Personal attacks are pointless and don't acomplish anything. But I very much enjoy debating and watching others doing so. Growing up and to this day I've watched my dad and our neighbor, who are great friends by the way, argue religeon and politics and what not, so I'm quite used to it.

Crude sexual references are completely unnecessary and useless, serving no real purpose as mentioned above. I know who is responsible for most of them, but saying so would be unnecessary here. I find them irritating at least.

Interesting observation; I can only think of one woman who has her picture up and the rest of us haven't. Just thought I'd point that out, its interesting.

I like the all of you and none of you have ever been unkind to me, at least not in any way that would influence my participation here.
Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Suimiúil! Cén féilire é sin?

Is an Cháisc Cheartchreidmheach í; Pascha atá uirthi i nGréigis, ach tagann sí ón Eabhrais ar dtús.

A Chaitriona

quote:

Harvard’s dean got what he deserved

This can be argued about endlessly. I was never fond of political correctness when it impedes academic debate. Making a person leave because of a remark at the private party (possible involving booze) goes a little bit over the top.

quote:

at some point in your life you’ll respect the huge contribution of women to the language

Shall I understand it as a personal attack? I seems that you state bluntly I do not respect women's contribution, what is simply not true. Or you simply imply that I am somehow inferior and immature that it will take me much time to understand the obvious?

quote:

Would I be wrong in thinking you’ve no statistics or evidence

You are simply inattentive reader. I never said it is my idea, so I don't have to have statistics to support it. This is a wildly available SOCIOLOGICAL research, which concerns not only Irish, but any minority languge. From evolutional approach it makes much sense that mothers as a primary source of children's native tongue make a conscious choice to raise children through majority's language especially in mixed families. I see ample evidence of this in my native country as well. National minorities entering mixed marriages don't pass the language to their children (in majority of cases). The best example of this is how America itself was formed. Otherwise, there would have been no Americans speaking English, but plenties of French, Italians, Irish, Swedes, Germans, Dutch, Jews, and so on and of course some English living on American continent. So this thing is in a no way controversial AND it is completely unrelated to "gender issue" which try (unproductively, pointelessly and unfruitfully) to say who is worth more.

Le meas

Róman:

Your wingnut assertion about women killing the Irish language is a bunch of béal ónna agus dríb. You sound like a leathcheann foirfe.

Dear anonime guest

I don't understand what you have written - and I am almost sure there is no translation for such expressions in online dictionary- but I can guess what it is.

Then I will ask simple question - who did kill Irish language? Some aliens? Despite famine, national school system, and emigration by the end of XIX century 1/4 of country still spoke Irish as MOTHER tongue (note the word I highlighted). Now - 100 years later some 3% do. Did 20% of people emigrate? So where are 400 000 of native speakers living abroad? The answer is simple: the language has simply not been passed to children. So I re-iterate: WHO DID KILL the tongue?

Róman, there's blame enough for everyone. Did your father & grandfather teach you no words/phrases at all? Did you not have both men & women as teachers in school?

Your assertion grossly oversimplifies what was a complex phenomenon, and your last post is a perfect example of what I termed "needless acrimony" earlier.

If you'd like to debate this topic, sans hyperbole, I'm sure it would be a very popular discussion thread. But continue with hyperbole and you will chase away more ladies -- and many men as well.

A Chionaoidh,

I had a rational debate above in the thread. But then I was personally assaulted by Caitriona who seems to take everything personally. So I see no fault of myself that there are plenties of studies that show that YES - grannies can teach you cúpla focal, but it is ultimately do mháthair féin who decides what is your native tongue. There is such burden of responsibility laying on mothers, like in many other things (like making us decent people) - but it is not me who invented it, so I don't have to be personally attacked for stating the obvious.

Re teachers. The "restoration" of Irish in the Free State and in the Irish republic has shown that teachers are helpless if they face the silent warfare with parents who while paying lip service to Irish heritage unconsciously make every effort that their children become English monoglots.

I don't blame the parents - it is ultimately the fault of the Irish state which made the life of Irish monoglots so miserable until recently. Just think of poor hap who have to settle legal disputes through English, as legal proceedings in Irish are unavailable. I still recollect bitter words of some older Aranman who said: "It is good to care for Irish language of those who have plenties of English".

So let's make piece - not war. It is the fault of successive Irish governments, but still Irish women had their part (though wishing the best for their kids). It is a manifestation of the law of unintended consequences in full force.

Le meas

Sure and all the women here will possibly dislike me for this one, but I see what Roman is saying and it makes sense. Certainly fathers have say in what their children learn, but usually (not always but usually) tiny children are with their mothers more and thus what they learn is picked up more from their mothers. Still we can't completely blame women for the language decline, but to ignore Roman's point is something which I think ought not to be done.

And thanks for mentioning Irish speaking monoglots because that is an area of deep interest to myself as we all know.

quote:

a bunch of béal ónna

quote:

I am almost sure there is no translation for such expressions in online dictionary

Bain triail as Google. It's one of the cockeyed concoctions of Dan Cassidy (or is that Jerry de Rossa?). Ní Gaeilge é ar chor ar bith.

Some quotes from above:

quote:

...a few years ago I had a Daltái class for a semester where everybody else, including the teacher, were women.

...The last Irish class I went to (before I had to stop attending because it was too far) was mostly women. Both of the teachers were female, and I think about 3/4 of the students were women.

....On average, about 2/3 of my students are female

After reading some of the postings above, I can't help but wonder if Caitriona's "enrichment and balancing" theory applies to classroom settings, and if so, how would we get more men to join Irish-study classes?

And one last question, if I may, what is the perfect ratio; is it 50/50 or some other ratio?

Student of ... a chara,

I think its hilarious the way you change up your name for different threads, it always keeps me guessing and gives me a great laugh. Ratio isn't so much of an issue for me so I'd not be the one to answer that one. As to how to get more women on; I've been poking around in the archives a lot of late and I wonder what ever happened to some of the very valuable female contributors like Kay and a couple of Maires. It is odd how people fade out and new people come along, I can't help but wonder whare they go off to.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

A Chara,

Re: béal ónna, simple, silly, foolish talk.

Is it incorrect to use ónna with béal?

ónna, indec. adj., simple, silly. (Dineen, p. 821.)

I should have written leathdhuine: a half-witted person, or a half-smart fool.

But I thought béal ónna was grammatically correct, though I defer to the experts on this site and stand corrected if it is improper.

Of course, a leathdhuine only uses leathcheann (one side of the head.

Why is the adjective ónna incorrect with the noun béal? I am very new to Irish.

Thanks,

Ed "a Lorgaire (Seeker) from New Jersey"

Re: ónna


1684 O’Rahilly (T. F.): óinmhid. ónna. amaid.
In Ériu 13, 1942, pp. 149–52, 218 [add.]. (Notes, mainly etymological, no. 5)

Found this from T.F. O'Rahilly.

Thanks

Ed

Focail as Irisleabhair Éagsúla 7rl
© 1996-2004 Seán Ua Súilleabháin

Ó,

óinmhid Ériu 13, 149, ónna, amaid, amadán

"Would I be wrong in thinking you’ve no statistics or evidence to back up your idea that we’re responsible for the decline of the language?"

"The transmission of languages is fairly similar in linguistically-mixed marriages: Catalan-speaking fathers and Spanish-speaking mothers transmitted Catalan in 45.7% of cases, and Spanish in 54.3%. When the father was Spanish-speaking and the mother was Catalan-speaking, 47.7% transmitted Catalan, whereas 52.3% transmitted Spanish. Thus, the tendency is to transmit Spanish more."
(http://www6.gencat.net/llengcat/noves/hm02estiu/catalana/a_querol5_12.htm)

not amazing, and not worth all the personal attacks by some of the contributors here, but it is a reliable statistic that supports Róman's POV. Although the majority language is always more transmitted, mothers have a 2% higher rate of minority language transmission. Just to dismiss his statements because of his recognizing the importance that mothers play in the linguistic development of children seems wrong (especially the non-academic name calling by unnamed guests). I admit this would not break the language, but it would make a contribution.

another excellent academic article on this subject is: "Fathers' speech to their children: perfect pitch or tin ear?" http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PAV/is_1_1/ai_107202406

Jumping all over Róman for his valid, if unproven, statement would be the same a attacking Drochfhuaimniú for stating that "women in general are better at languages than men" (which no one did, may I remind you). It is the same type of controversial, likely true statement, yet completely unproven in her post (this is not an attack, merely an example).

As for me, any of my language classes are a slight majority of men, even when taking French in high school, and most Irish speakers I know are men.

Perhaps because you are more in the company of men? Most of the speakers I know are women.

I mentioned that the most of the people here are men and my friend said, this is coming from her, that men were more likely to hang around on the internet for larger amounts of time than women. If she were correct than it has nothing to do with which gender speaks the language more. I don't think it has much to do with that whether my friend is right about internet use or not.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

The success of Catalan lies, I think, in the fact that is compulsory to learn it in school, as is the case with Irish, but in the case of Catalan they learn through Catalan. That makes a big difference.

Of course Castillian had the most prestige for historical dominance reasons and then there's the argument that should you call the other languages Spanish too. But I digress. Thanks Dark Foreigner. The case of the success of the Catalán program in schools interests me.

Re. any of my language classes are a slight majority of men, even when taking French in high school, and most Irish speakers I know are men. I'm curious. Is this at third level education? It has always been the opposite for me, at all levels.
Thanks C

Riona,
It might be true about men spending longer on the Internet and the reason why, I'm sure, could be another long discussion for another day but I do know a lot of women who use the Internet and in Japan even the grannies are often online.
But you mentioned before that there were some women who used to post and they seem to have disappeared. I disappeared for a while too when the responses became too intense. I admire your ability to laugh off some things as banter which I'm afraid I find more offensive even though I grew up with 4 brothers and many heated discussions.
El poder de palabras: I think strong words drive us away. They did for me. It would be sad if this was almost totally a boys' club.

We're here for Irish agus ní maith liom bheith ag troid is níl fonn troda orm. Níl mé ag iarraidh ach gur féidir linn oibriú le chéile gan stró.

Míle buíochas,
C

I'd like to quote two paragraphs from the chapter on Yiddish in the book Spoken Here: Travels Among Threatened Languages by Mark Abley (2003). I don't know that they're directly relevant to Irish and its history, but they are interesting:

Alex is a member of the Satmar court [= community, in Montréal]. Among his people the girls and women usually speak better English than the boys and men. "Men, from when they're born till the age of twenty or when they get married, are in an insular community. They don't get out as much as the women do. The women do more of the shopping. Sometimes they speak to friends in English. They just use it more often." (A Jewish woman who has taught Hasidic girls later told me that while Hasidic women always speak Yiddish to their husbands and sons, they prefer English with their daughters.) As for the boys, Alex said, "Very few are growing up that don't speak English. But when they go out, their accent is lousy, people laugh at them -- so they're almost forced to speak Yiddish."

I couldn't tell what he thought about this. Nor do I believe that a fear of outsiders' laughter was truly the main reason Hasidic boys are brought up in Yiddish. Alex's tone was neutral. His face gave nothing away. Did he regret the lousy accent and scorn? Or was he happy that Yiddish endures? This was the traditional language of Jewish women [who did not normally study Hebrew] -- the mama-loshen of tenderness and endearment. Its final stronghold is Hasidic men.

Cait,
well, here (go Canada!) we are forced to learn French up to high school, but after grade 9 it is voluntary. I myself took it to grade 12, with a, I'd say, 65-70% ratio of guys in my class, all there out of love of language. Irish I am taking at university. Again, for my program, 1st year is compulsory, anything extra is voluntary, and yet my 2nd year class is 50:50 exactly.
-DarkForeigner

A Dhennis, (I doubt that I did that right so correct me please on how to lenite names for the future so I don't continue to make the same mistakes.)
Your quotes from that book on Yiddish were interesting, It's interesting that in the middle of a Canadian city there is an onclave whare people still speak a minority language like Yiddish.

A Chaitriona a chara,
You really seem to be quite a sweet person who has much kindness in her. I think the reason I don't mind so much the banter is because I by nature am very contankerous and argumentative and enjoy a good discussion, even if it is heated to a certain temporature. However on the same page as yourself, I think personal attacks are completely uncalled for and they show a participant's weakness of charactor. I try not to do this because it is pointless and I don't want anyone to think that I'm cruel or too harsh. And I don't want to be the cause of unhappiness to anyone. I suppose I balance these things and so I stay around and enjoy myself very much. We did miss you when you were gone by the way, because you are quite helpfull and a good contributor.
Beir bua agus beannacht.

Thanks Riona. I needed that. You are truly a positive force here.

Regarding language studies:

I can't quote statistics (sorry, Caitriona) - but yes, by general aptitude measures women are better at this. Exactly this was a death blow to Irish in XIX century - mothers learned English too well. In order to pass foreign language to your children women have to learn it themseleves first. And they succeeded.

Research re Catalan is not very relevant for one simple reason - the language is very vibrant, so it is not even worth comparison. Irish is used by a tiny fraction of society, so pressure to abandon Irish is enormous. Whereas in Catalunia as far as I know - it is Castillian speakers who are disadvantaged - in employment, media and so on. catalan-medium schools which are COMPULSORY for natives have been mentioned. Only children of Castillian parents who MOVED there get a break. So there is a well-oiled assimiliation machine into Catalan at working. Learning Catalan for Castillian speaker is a joke in a way, as languages are similar enough not to impede general comprehension (after some exposure of course). Nothing of the kind in Ireland.

So what can be done? Judging from my country - which was in very similar predicament at the end of XIX century with the same profile by the way - a lot. In Lithuania we battled with Polish, as you with English - completely different language. And Lithuanian has as Irish has it a complex grammar. We were even at a bigger disadvantage - the Catholic church was ranting for 600 years that good Catholic doesn't speak Lithuanian, cause it is a "pagan" language. It is only with independence of Lithuania our church got independence from Poland, so our clerics weren't sent in by Poles anymore, who indoctrinated on langauge issues during masses.

So what was done - only education through Lithuanian language was provided for. So after 20 years a new generation has come - which spoke Lithuanian, although their parents were Polish speakers. Thanks to this - 86% of population is Lithuanian-speakers now, and Poles are minority, 9% or something, may be less. The result would have been better if the policy of re-Lithuanisation was not stopped by Soviet occupation. But still now our national language has assumed all the dignity and it is in a no way a threatened language.

A Romain,

Your experiences in Lithuania are really valuable as an example of how Irish could gain ground if all school was conducted in Irish. It sounds like it has worked quite well for Lithuanian and that makes perfect sense.

Maidir le bronnadh na teanga ar an athghlúin, dá threise nó dá laige an duine, fireann nó baineann, bhí an brú lasmuigh den teaghlach níos treise agus níos cinniúnaí ná aon ghné eile.

As to transmission, forces outside of the family unit were the determinent.

Tá comhfhreagras agam ar shnáithe eile ar na bataí scóir daoibh. Starting another thread on the Bata Scóir.

Róman,
you mentioned before that Lithuanian has up to 4 way contrasts in some consonats.

Since Polish has 2 (palatised and plain), how did you (as a people) prevent the issue of a doggeral language (like what occurs in Belfast as their neo-native speech spreads with only English phonetics) from occuring.

I miht guess Lithunian has a basic palatal/plain contrast too but with 2 more shades (like the liquids in Irish) making 4. Is that correct?

And before anyone pipes up abot dissing Belfast -what they are doiing for Irish is great -except some of the speakers sound AWEFUL!

There is no 4 way distinction. What I was probably mentioning it is 4 different sibilants that we have -

in Irish you have only /s/ and /s'/ pronounced like English /sh/.

In Lithuanian we have /s/, /s'/ (which would sound 'sy' for you), /sh/ (strong velar sound, like Swedish "rs") and soft /sh'/ - which is like Irish /s'/.

Re pronunciation - people with Polish background don't get stress and pitch correctly - one of most distinctive features of their accent. People of Russian legacy can't get soft /sh'/ and /zh'/ right - they pronounce them broad.

Conversely - the patch of Lithuania that remained in Poland after the war (at little bit over the current border) - have this strong accent that they are called "Poles" in Lithuania, as they miss some native sounds which are absent in Polish, like slender /r'/ - they pronounce all /r/ as broad.

But interestingly enough - they are not pretending that they are deaf (as some in Ireland are) and they HEAR the difference between their speech and proper language, so they have no illusions that their pronunciation is not model one.

It is very interesting case of our national capital - Vilnius - which was occupied by Poland for 20 years between WW1 and WW. You can literally HEAR the consequences of this. Locals speak either outright bad deplorable quality Lithuanian, or grammatically OK, but phonetically as bad. What happens now - due to attractions of capital for migrating youth as well as all those incoming stuydents from country-side (and never going back) - the percentage of native Lithuanian speakers is constantly growing. Some 57% speak Lithuanian in Vilnius, some 25% Polish. But due to state policy on the language (which nobody dares to question) - Lithuanian langauge is on top. At my workplace in my office - I am the only Lithuanian (actually I moved to Vilnius 2 years ago myself) - whereas 3 other colleagues are local. 2 born in Vilnius (Russian and Polish) and one from Vilnius environs (Polish). We all speak Lithuanian among ourselves. Only those 2 ladies born in Vilnius speak Russian between themselves at times.

The main thing - besides patriotism and fashion - the laws requiring to make all documents in state langauge. So all native speakers are at immense advantage immediately. Actually the guy who is from Vilnius environs while being Polish speaks without any accent. And now he is talking to Russian lady in Lithuanian, although they both could speak Russian as well. This makes me confident about our national language.

"We were even at a bigger disadvantage - the Catholic church was ranting for 600 years that good Catholic doesn't speak Lithuanian, cause it is a "pagan" language."

Irish was not that different; in fact one of the strongest opponents of the Irish language was the Catholic Church (19-20th centuries, not talking about book of kells age here!), who regarded Irish as holding the people back. This is why many of the earliest attempts to save the language came from Irish Protestants, such as William Neilson.

>> And now he is talking to Russian lady in Lithuanian, although they both could speak Russian as well. This makes me confident about our national language.

An ceart ar fad agat. An-scéal ar fad a Rómain. Mar a d'iarrfadh do bhéal a bheith.
Go raibh maith agat - Ačiū.

People of Russian legacy can't get soft /sh'/ and /zh'/ right - they pronounce them broad.

/щ/ - щи, /ж’/ - дождливый /даж’`л’ивыi/




Ar teanga na námhaid í an Rúisis, then? ;)

The thing that seems to have fixed so much in Lithuania is that the government made it more advantageous to speak Lithuanian. Thus it made economic and social sense to see that children had it. Economic advantage and what not are similarly what influenced Irish people to switch to English, because they were more oppressed and more oppertunities were denied if they only had Irish. If the government were to shift that the opposite way, then people woud learn Irish in order to do better in life.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

quote:

/щ/ - щи, /ж’/ - дождливый /даж’`л’ивыi/

Not everybody pronounces these that way. First can be pronounced as /shch/ and second MORE OFTEN is plain hard /zh/. And even in your proposed variant of pronunciation slender /sh/ and /zh/ are LONG sounds, therefore, people don't associate them with plain consonants. Notwithstanding this theoretical discussion, the truth is that Russians always say /shy/ and /zhy/ instead of proper Lithuanian /shi/ /zhi/.