mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (May-June) » Archive through May 08, 2006 » Riona's newest findings and ideas on ... « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 131
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 01:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia dhaoibh, a chairde,

I ran across something interesting in my research on the last people who have limited English in Ireland because they've always just spoken Irish. On Irish Gaelic translator.com I found an archived thread about how somone wanted to know some good Irish things to say to his grandmother because her English had left her and so all she had now was Irish. So that got me thinking in a slightly different way about it. When that happens to someone then they are for all practical purposes near or completely monoglot. I've heard tell of this situation among the older people and I'd very much appreciate any information that anyone might have. I have immensely appreciated all the suggestions of places to look and all the stories of when the all of you have seen people of the limited English persuasion. Anything else that you have at all would be greatfully liked by myself. And I wanted to know if Aonghus knows anything because he's clever and he wasn't here last time I posted about this. Go raibh maith agaibh.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3053
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 04:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Not a lot, I'm afraid.

I know there are problems for people from the Gaeltacht who get Alzheimers or other diseases which destroy short term memory. But I have no hard facts.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 04:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thugas faoi deara roinnt bheag daoine a d'athraigh a dteanga i ndiaidh colscartha. An cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge a phós a leathbhreac féin, go n-iompódh sí ar an mBéarla ar fad i ndiaidh scaradh dóibh.

An cainteoir dúchais Béarla tar éis colscartha, go n-iompódh sé/sí ar an nGaeilg agus go dtréigfeadh sé/sí an Béarla oiread agus ab' fhéidir.

D'fhéadfaí a mhaíomh gur teanga dhídin an ateanga i gcás den chineál sin.

- People on occasion do leave their first language after divorce and seem to assume a position of refuge in their second language. Trauma, major or minor, physical or otherwise, may cause such change.

Sin é mo léamh roinnt bheag dá bhfaca mé.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 135
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheosamh, a chara,

I tried with my pocket dictionary to translate what you said. Best I came to was people having gradual language changes and native Irish speakers getting married and divorced and native English speakers doing likewise and one language gradually dissapearing and so forth. I'm afraid I didn't completely understand the meaning behind the part that you wrote in English either. Sure and I know I must seem dreadfully ignorant but I'd very much appreciate it if you might try telling me what you meant because I know you were probably saying something important and I'd like ever so much to know what it was.
Go raibh maith agat.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 09:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Bail ó Dhia ort a Riona.

Just that I've known people who, after some trauma in their lives, move from their native language to a learned language, which they then adopt as their first language. This can go from Irish to English if both partners were Irish speaking before divorce. An article some years ago argued, negatively, in some ways like another thread anseo, that the only people left speaking Irish eventually would be those who look for an alternative life style.
Sin é an scéal. Ní lia duine ná tuairim.

Chonaic mé teangeolaí abhus, seanchara de chuid Joshua Fishman ag baint na sramaí dá shúile lá amháin anseo. Ar nós an Uasail Fishman, níl go leor daoine lasmuigh d'Éirinn ar an eolas cruinn faoina bhfuil ag titim amach cúrsaí na teanga de abhus.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 138
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheosamh, a chara,

That is not exactly what I was thinking of when I posed this post / this question, but thank you at any rate. Anyone's further comments and/or information would be ever so gladly appreciated.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caitriona (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Sheosaimh,
Dúirt tú, 'People on occasion do leave their first language after divorce and seem to assume a position of refuge in their second language. Trauma, major or minor, physical or otherwise, may cause such change.'

It sounds interesting. You don't happen to remember any book on this, do you? I'd love to read up on it.
Buíochas,
c

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 01:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>> You don't happen to remember any book on this, do you? I'd love to read up on it.

-- Léamh an tsaoil in áit léamh an leabhair is bun leis an scéal thuas a Chaitríona. Níl aon tuairim leabhair agam mar sin is eagal liom.


>> because her English had left her and so all she had now was Irish. ..

Gach b'fhéidir níos fearr ná a chéile gur theagmhaigh rud éigin di. Bás a chéile nó a leithéid.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Wee_falorie_man
Member
Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 01:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hello,

I just signed up a couple of days ago and I haven't read all of the archived stuff so I don't know if you already know about a fellow named Sean O Heiniri. He was on a great PBS series called"The Story of English" that came out back in 80's; the name of that particular show in the series was "The Loaded Weapon". He was/is from Killgalligan in county Mayo and was presented as a monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker.

Oh, by the way, my grandparents were from rural New Mexico and spoke no English at all ( only Spanish ). As my parents get older they speak less and less English. Come to think of it, I have not heard a word of English from them in several years! Alas, the old New Mexican Spanish is fading fast; in Alburquerque, which is the the biggest city in New Mexico, it is for the most part spoken only by elderly natives (most residents are not native to New Mexico)- almost everyone under the age of sixty can speak only English or sometimes a little bit of standard "schoolbook" Spanish.

Well, I guess that's all that I have to say for now, Riona. Good luck on your quest for monoglot Irish speakers!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 139
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 05:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've seen him telling stories on "In Search OF The Trojan War" but I haven't seen this other show. I will try to get it on DVD if I can so I can see him again and see what new things are shown. Thanks so much, I'm so glad for any information that anyone can give me.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Wee_falorie_man
Member
Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Unfortunately, this series is only available on VHS; I have been checking off and on for years. Do you happen to know if "In Search of the Trojan War" is on DVD?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 142
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 12:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chara,
Yes, it is totally on DVD and I was able to get it from the library in my area. The scene in question was only around 5 minutes long at most, but if one is in to this sort of thing it is worth getting the movie just to see it, in fact I didn't watch any of the rest of the movie. It is divided into six episodes and the scene in question is found in the episode called "tellers Of Tales" or something to that effect. If you're interested in this concept/topic, you shouldalso get a copy of Man Of Aran on DVD and look at the special feature entitled "How The Myth Was Made". Within this there is a sadly very short scene that shows an old man in the 70s who was monoglot. I'm so captivated by this, and I will happily take and apply any information that the all of you can give me.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aindréas
Member
Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 69
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 01:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Okay. Man of Aran, In Search of the Trojan War, the Story of English. Must get these! I keep forgetting when I'm at the library. *facepalm*

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 01:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So I continue to see scant anicdotes about people of the limited English persuasion. I never got e-mails back from 2 prominent people who I thought might know something, I guess people are just too busy for me. I wondered if Freagra might be able to help me out or if they just do grammar. If they would then I'd want to e-mail them straight away, but if not then I'd not want to be making a fool of myself by asking. I looked at their website to try and asertain this but they were ever so vague. Go raibh maith agat in advance.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Esther
Member
Username: Esther

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 02:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Maybe you can contact some old people homes in the Gaeltacht and ask them about experiences?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dubhghaill
Member
Username: Dubhghaill

Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 04:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"I'd want to e-mail them straight away, but if not then I'd not want to be making a fool of myself by asking."

Nothing ventured, nothing gained... are you ever going to meet these people directly? will they ever be you reference for a loan, or your guaranteers to bail you out of jail? Asking never hurts, and as my teachers always used to say 'there is no such thing as stupid questions, only stupid answers!'
You never know Riona, they may know, or may not directly have the info but could point you in the right direction! Bain triail as!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mothrae
Member
Username: Mothrae

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 02:38 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are groups of older folks in what had been the old anthracite coal districts of Pennsylvania USA, where my family settled back around the time of the American Civil War. Many of these Irish immigrants found work in the coal mines and on the canals and railroads and all but barricaded themselves into tight groups, closed to outsiders. What had started as chapters and lodges of Ancient Order Of Hibernians, Friendly Sons Of The Shillelagh, and the Molly Maguires grew into some pretty nasty secret societies! And there are not a few oldtimers left who speak Irish, and little by little, as mentioned above, they stop speaking English, although these people were probably second or third generation born in the USA.

The curious thing is that although many still speak it, there is little or nothing written down. No books, nothing, although the language survives somehow. And I'm told they still resist outsiders.

And it's all male! Being a female, I can be terminated for possessing such knowledge LOL.

Moth

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 155
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 07:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

OK so I want to try Esther's suggestion. In America old people's homes are always called something like X Retirement Center or X Retirement Home, etc. (I've totally caught on to this X business, now that I know what it means, haha). So in Ireland they're called ... the same sorts of things or not. This way I can at least try to find some that I can investigate, I hope retirement homes have websites so I can e-mail people and so forth to ask. Go raibh maith agaibh to the all of you. You're all so very patient with me.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3087
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 04:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

http://www.carnanursinghome.com/

áras mhic dara, an ceathrú rua. - can't find a site.

Look for "nursing home"

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 165
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 02:36 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

So I e-mailed Freagra and got the typical government-style answer of "no that doesn't exist, sorry". Of course they were a lot sweeter to me than that but still. I tend to believe anecdotal stories in this situation more than I do the flat no-it-doesn't-happen-ever responses. At least they wrote back to me and I'm sure they did the best they knew to do.

Waiting on a few other leads. I know that not many people are necessarily benifiting from all this, me writing it all down and so forth, but I know Aindreas is interested and I figure that all this will help someone in the future who might be curious and want to know the all of it. Maybe it'll make their research easier.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 214
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 04:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Riona,

sorry for being too blunt - but why are you looking for them? Do you intend to visit them? If so, what will you tell them and in which language? I presume you don't want to embarass those people that their command of English is not perfect?

This is one of the problems that people in Gaeltachts face and why their youths are abandoning Gaeilge in droves - being treated like pecularities, like some exotic animals in zoo. People speak Gaeilge in gaeltachts not because they want to show off - it is their native language. But every summer busloads of Irish children and tourists come and that familiar type of exclamations ("Mary, did you hear? That guy spoke Irish!") while not mean are a constant reminder to them that they are in some way "abnormal". They are not silly and know that whenever they are in Bleá Cliath nobody would say behind their backs ("Have you heard? He speaks English!"). This can explain why those people are not eager to speak Irish to outsiders. I suppose they were the happiest if everybody minded their own business and left them alone. Sorry if my ideas are to straight, but I am used to speak my mind.

Ámhar mór ort

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

No Roman, I doubt that I'd ever see or meet them, and even if I wanted to, which I would, I wouldn't do it until I had good Irish and I'd not mention anything that was indicative of curiousity. I just want to know, the concept has captivated me. Say what you will but I still want to know it all. And I feel that I have the right to search and be captivated.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 219
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:27 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ok, as long you are not going to administer them questionnaires in English (How did you manage not to study enough English?- type of question) - I am fully on your side :)) Of course you are free you pursue any topic as long as it doesn't harm anyone.

Ámhar mór ort

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 167
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 08:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sure and I'd not do such a thing, I want people, especially them, to be happy and free and content and to feel safe. I think such people deserve as much respect as anyone can give to their fellow man. I slightly resent the implications that you make of me, but I realize that it is only because you care about them and you want anyone with cruel notions to be stopped in their tracks.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aindréas
Member
Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 74
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm thrilled that you're so interested in this, Riona. It's very intriguing to me also. Despite it just being so fascinating, Irish monoglots would certainly be of historic interest to scholars. They demonstrate the culture and preservation of the Irish language.

And I know Riona has no intention of trying to embarrass or pecularize those who might have limited English. It's just that when you consider that fact that everyone who speaks Irish supposedly also speaks English, but then discover that may not be true, it puts Irish on a whole new level as a language, doesn't it? But Róman really brings up a good point of exactly how gaelgeoirí must not be seen, for the sake of the language and out of common courtesy.

I've always been so much more drawn too the lesser spoken and endangered languages, and I often feel ashamed to take such an interest in them, as I wish not to do exactly what Róman explains. I can only imagine how embarrased I be if I saw people gawking at an Irish speaker, or a speaker of any language among a majority language for that matter. I was at the supermarket and there was a mother with two young boys speaking Spanish amongst themselves, and some Americans around were staring and whispering. I couldn't believe it. So I smiled and said hi, and asked her how old her sons were. It made the other people go away at least.

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 01:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Surprising that anyone would gawk at Spanish, its so commonly spoken. It seems like if people admit that such people in Ireland do exist, then the government would have to admit that is not doing well enough providing services in Irish. As long as everyone can speak Irish and English both then the government fels that it can slack off on Irish medium options. But if it is found that some people NEED to have everything in Irish then the government's shortcomings are out in the open and people will demand that everything is in Irish, no exceptions. Call me a conspiratorialist, but maybe the authorities don't want people to know of the truth because as long as they don't, then the slacking off on Irish can continue. I know its really far fetched to go the government conspiracy route, probably the truth is that most people couldn't care less so they don't notice or see. I know that people with limited or near no English are exceptionally rare, but still it seems odd that there is next to know agknowledgement of their existance.

Oh and I put that Story Of English video on hold, I can't wait to see it.
Beir bua agus beannacht

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Wee_falorie_man
Member
Username: Wee_falorie_man

Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 10:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yup, that's The Story of English Program 8 "The Loaded Weapon". While you're at it, there is also The Story of English Program 4 "The Guid Scots Tongue". Roughly half of the show is about Lowland Scots and the other half is about Scottish Gaelic in the Highlands and Islands. I would recommend to anyone who is at all interested in any form of Gaelic, to buy, borrow, or steal (preferably buy or borrow!) these videos.

Enjoy!



©Daltaí na Gaeilge