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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (March-April) » Archive through April 27, 2006 » Irish - after 1998 « Previous Next »

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Damien
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Username: Damien

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 01:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am curious to know if the use of Irish has declined since the Peace accord regardin Ulster was signed in 1998 and the IRA renounced its armed struggle against Britain in 2005.

Based solely on my readings, the Irish langauge during the 60-90s was utilized like a code especially in the H-Block and maybe some of the passion to learn Irish has subsided somewhat?

Is this true? Disagree?

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James
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Username: James

Post Number: 349
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 02:20 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Disagree. From what I've read, there is a resurgence of the language in Northern Ireland since the peace accord and it spans the Catholic/Protestant sectors.

Others can give more detailed info.

(Message edited by james on April 19, 2006)

Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3050
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 03:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Seconded, James.

NI seems to be vibrant in Irish, and there are now more funds available to cultural groups there.

The identification with militant republicanism has done more harm than good to the language North and South. That too has changed.

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 03:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agreed, Aonghus.

Also, it seems that more and more parents are sending their children to Gaelscoileanna these days. When these children become adults, I think there's a high probabily that they would send their children to Gaelscoileanna too.

I think the demand for Gaelscoileanna will increase greatly over the next 50 years.

What do others think?

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Ultán
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Username: Ultán

Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 04:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Damien a chara,
You may be interested in an article, Protastúnaigh an lae inniu agus an Ghaeilge - Contemporary Proestant Learners of Irish - by Gordon McCoy agus Róise Ní Bhaoill of the Ultach Trust in Belfast N.I. ( You can get in touch with them at their website). It explains the difficulties of what North Irish Protestants experence to learn Irish. The problem that Aonghus refers to, regarding republicanism is still a problem more so with learners in working class areas of Belfast but that is slowly changing. Middle-class learners are more comfortable and have less problems.

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DJW (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 01:47 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, I know from my own experience here on Daltaí, that learning the Irish language as a supporter of the UK, you face a barrage of Republican propaganda that can be difficult to confront. Nationalists seem to want to privatise the Irish language, as if it didn't belong to British patriots too...

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 713
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 08:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's not that anyone is unwelcome to learn, I think the de-politicising of the langauge is the best thing for it, precisely because it opens up the field to that many more learners.

But it's important to recognize that many people that are studying the language worldwide have several things in common regarding their understanding of the language and why it's so critical today

1) were it not for policies of the British gov't for centuries trying to kill the language as a method of 'briticization' it would not be in the situation it's in today. Yes, Irish people gave up on speaking it, but the *why* behind that is a school system that drilled it out of the children with tally sticks, shame and corporal punishment and a government that denied you civil rights and economic opportunities if you didn't toe the line. Speaking the language was considered a subversive act and was "discouraged" wherever possible.

2) Many if not most of those outside of Ireland that have an interest in learning the language are in families which suffered greatly in the time before Ireland's independence. Either they are the descendants of patriots who were exiled or forced to flee, or suffered from the horrible economic conditions (including famine) which ruined the country for generations as was a direct result of British gov't mismanagement. Now, before you jump all over me, am I saying the British caused the Great Famine in some insidious genocidal plot? No, I'm not, but the failure of the potato crop had the impact it had due to the economic system brought about by British gov't policies that kept most of the country in poverty and on the brink of starvation in the first place, and a horrible "dropping the ball" when it came to relief efforts.

While fingerpointing at modern elected officials for things their predecessors did is neither fair nor effective, asking people of that history to whitewash the suffering, it's effects or redirect the responsibility is as unfair asking a Native American Indian to absolve the federal government in their history books because they brought doctors and schools and roads to the reservations they put them on ("To Hell or Connacht...er...Arizona...").

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 714
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 08:46 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Let me just digest - Daltaí welcomes everyone. The language community as a whole *should* welcome everyone, and those born and/or raised on the Island who wish to identify themselves as Irish are, no more or less than others who may have differing political attitudes or faiths.

But don't whitewash what happened to my family.



This Public Service Announcement has been an attempt to pre-empt the coming revisionist rant.

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Damien
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Username: Damien

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

To all:
Thanks for your posts. I am impressed that Irish Protestants are learning the Irish language. How far does that go though? If you indentify with a language from one country why would you not seek unification for country/people which has produced the language. Nonetheless, the peace now in Ireland (as observed from across the pond) is the most important thing. And I appreciate the input from those living in Ireland.


To Antaine:
Are you familiar with the Emerald Cottage in NJ? I am especially interested if it involves learning with a Guinness in hand!

Also I agree with your posts about Irish History.

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DJW (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 01:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine,

Yours was the revisionist rant. It is just anti-British bile. But you are happily living in an Anglo-Saxon country I see, and enjoying all the benefits of the Common Law etc.

Damien, I have no objection to reunification: the Republic of Ireland is welcome to dissolve itself and beg for admission into the Union at any time. The Gaelic language is part of the common heritage of the British Isles - it is spoken by more people as a first language in Scotland than in Ireland, don't forget.

So your attempt to link the language with anti-British agenda didn't work on me.

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Student of Multi-National Begging (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 02:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

But you are happily living in an Anglo-Saxon country I see, and enjoying all the benefits of the Common Law etc.



Yo Antaine, I wonder if it's also time for us American colonists to dissolve and "beg" for admission into the Union also. We should also ask our friends in India, Canada, and Australia, etc. if they would like to join in one big, multi-national begging session. :)

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Damien
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Username: Damien

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 03:03 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

DJW,

Hum.. I note sarcasm. We all know the truth about the acts of Britain towards Ireland (no matter how much Britain tries to ignore its history). As far as becoming part of the Union - even Wales and Scotland have taken steps away from the Union.

Isnt this an Irish language website?

Also, I dont have an anti-British agenda. My friends, relatives and I have served with their troops and see Britain as close friend on the WOT. (what a weird relationship..just like WWII). But to deny what Britain had done up to 1998 and not seek 1 Ireland is absurd. Britain must fully recognize its past. We all know the line between Ulster and the rest of Ireland is a joke and is kept alive by those with mentalities comparable to the KKK.

Regardless of whether the border is removed before the end of time or tmw, Ireland and the rest of its emigrant descendants will preserve its culture and share it with the rest of the world.

Bottom line: You can't separate the Irish language from the Irish Nation.

Damien
(From the Clavin Clan - 90+ cousins - You cant stop us!!)

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Ceolmhar
Member
Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 04:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

DJW, this website is for discussion of the Irish language. Might I suggest Boards.ie for discussion about the history between Ireland/UK. GRMA.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 715
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 04:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Damien, DJW has expounded on his beliefs here several times. Any implication that Britain's gov't has been responsible for any part of the decline of the language is 'anti-british bile' and that the Celtic Irish are not a distinct people from the Germanic anglo-normans. He believes that 'celticness' is a sham invention of the 19th century and the anglo-norman monarchy is not "a foreign government" to the Irish, Scots, Cornish or Welsh. Now, while such a debate would be possible with regards to the Scots due to the way the two countries found themselves united, such a situation does not exist for the other, indeed Celtic, peoples.

Without a tacit agreement on even the most basic elements of human history and migration patterns there's no sense having a conversation at all. Because he's coming from so fundamentally different a place philosophically, we'll endlessly argue in different directions without ever actually touching what our real differences are. In order to get anywhere, one of our mutually exclusive interpretations of history on its most fundamental level would need to be agreed upon...

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Riona
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Username: Riona

Post Number: 132
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 07:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm an American woman who will be the first to admit that the US has some dreadfull stains on it from history. Sure and I'm embarrassed about it and I regret the cruelty of some of the people of my country in history, but I don't deny that it happened. To do so would be like justifying atrosities. No country is all good or bad. Noone here thinks that all the English are horrible, we just are looking at the situation from a historical point of view, although people's experiences do play into it as well. In the end we are all here with a common goal, to further the Irish language, and that is quite a brilliant thing.

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Ceolmhar
Member
Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 59
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 08:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't like this thread anymore.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 719
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 09:45 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

hm...sorry about that...we do have a tendency to stray, although this thread was a question regarding politics/nationalism and the language from the start.

It does however ask about the more recent political situation than old finger-pointing. I am interested to know as much as possible regarding the state of things currently, particularly in the 6 counties.

perhaps we can return to the original line of discussion?

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DJW (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 11:49 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Actually, Antaine, I resisted the temptation to expatiate at length on British and Irish history. But this thread is to a large degree about Protestant interest in Gaelic, and what I said was correct, and you illustrated it marvellously: Protestants learning Gaelic are confronted with continual assertions of the following kind: "We all know the truth about the acts of Britain towards Ireland (no matter how much Britain tries to ignore its history)." One could believe that it is an attempt to drive Protestants away from learning the Irish language. By the way, that University of Ulster article referenced by someone else above does refer to the prejudice and political extremism that characterises Gaelic language learning in Northern Ireland, driving Protestants away.

I try to refer to Gaedhilge as "Gaelic" in English, not "Irish", as I see Irish as a politically loaded term trying to pretend that Gaelic is the national language in a way that Hiberno-English is not. Tokenism really.

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Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 181
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:02 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

This thread is one the verge of (or has already) crossed into the realm of political debate.

Consequently it is being closed.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.



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