As an Irish citizen, I feel quite threatened about our government wanting to ignore our language and kill it off for good.

Tá mé ag foghlaim an teanga arís, but I support Irish 200%

Irish street signage: Remember the original green ones? The Irish font was in equal size to the English. This was perfect - both languages EQUALLY readable.

Now all Irish names are in lowercase, thin, italic, etc.

Also, if you're a M50 driver, there are several permanent signs that are only in English eg. "GET IN LANE" - this needs to be in Irish as well in the same size and importance. Also, painted onto the road tarmac "SLOW"; I want to see "GO MALL" painted above/below it as well.

Is this too much to ask? Does is cost billions to have a translator involved?

Another petty example (out of several) is the 'Dublin Council' logo, they have just 'Baile Atha Cliath' underneath in very unnoticeable, faint coloured font. Why not have it the same font size as the English? The reader will surely know what language to read.

I believe the government will make the Irish text smaller and smaller and smaller until you can't fucking see it.

Sorry, it just really pisses me off. Why is the Irish language presented as such an inferior, unimportant language? It's our first language, only our government have the power to revive it. They are doing a disgusting job of it.

Why are the ORIGINAL Irish place names in inferior italics?

Grrrrrr.

"only our government have the power to revive it."

if that's truly the case, then it's screwed. people like you revive it. i can do my part, but an ocean away my efforts amount to less...at least until i learn enough to really being writing and publishing in it.

if you ask me, the more the government messes up, the greater passion people like you find in yourselves...i wonder if the lack of governmental support does more for the movement than full support, which might lead to a sense of complacency in many.

I think Jonathan Swift would have a field day with the present language situation.

A Cheolmhar, a chara,

I can see why you're irritated. For all that is said about encouraging Irish by the government, this signage issue with the Irish writing smaller than the English writing really says what's going on, just talk. Now it looks to me like some people care, but lots must not what with situations like this occurring all the time. The writing should be equally sized in both languages.

A Antaine,
Interesting point about how what the government supports can be held with complacency by the people because they think someone else is taking care of it so why bother. It's very much a great thing that people like Ceolmhar care about learning and are putting that caring into practice by pushing themselves to learn more and use what they have. Beir bua agus beannacht.

" wonder if the lack of governmental support does more for the movement than full support, which might lead to a sense of complacency in many."

the government does support it, but in a 'killing me softly' style

I wonder though, if the government said, "okay, we're going to stop with all this language nonsense," took it off the signs and stopped teaching it in schools, if you wouldn't see a doubling of enrollment in gaelscoileanna and increased determination in far greater numbers of adults learning it as well.

You know, it sounds cliché, but considering the character of the Irishmen and -women that I know, many people mightn't want to do use or learn the language because the government is telling them they should or must...if the government gave up on it and told the people "your language is now dead" I'd bet whole counties would go Gaeilge-only just to spite them...

It's funny...in the US we have a question which I believe has similar underpinnings. Many people want the government to do more for the poor (everything from soup kitchens to job training), but the government doesn't do a very good job when it does one - it costs more, does less and for fewer people than many of the smaller community-based groups. There's a movement to try to get the government to simply give the smaller groups more money to do what they are doing well even better, but to leave them make their own decisions as the government has proved itself incapable of running those kind of programs on its own.

Perhaps the government needs to stop some of what its doing "for" the language and funnel that money to gaelscoils and tg4 and businesses both in and out of the gaeltachts that use and help Irish. If nothing else, have a successful language organization supply the teachers and curricula for Gaeilge in the regular schools...might make that more effective...could you imagine Oideas Gael or a similar group getting the "contract" to do Irish in the schools for the next 5 years?

The Welsh/Canadians/ Swiss and the Regions in Spain do care about their culture & heritage but in Ireland the Govt only cares about "Promoting the Globalised/Consumer Society"
Remember only about 3% use Irish as their First tongue daily.Is cuma leis an dream taobh istigh den Pháil faoin nGaeilge, níl ionainnse atá ina gcainteoirí dúchais ach "pian sa tóin daoibh go léir" agus sin ag comhaireamh aire na Gaeltachta mar níl an "Dev Beag" ach "Yes Man". Níl na múinteoirí in ann an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh sa rang sna bunscoileanna agus is níos measa atá an scéal ag fáil.
Ná cuireadh sé brón oraibh mar níl meas /tóir a rud ar bith nó go bhfuil sé imithe go brách. m.sh an Dódó , agus an Fia Gaelach a d'imigh den saol san 17ú/tús an 18ú aois.

(Message edited by mickrua on April 18, 2006)

quote:

níl meas /tóir a rud ar bith nó go bhfuil sé imithe go brách

An cuimhin leat an t-amhrán le Joni Mitchell?

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot,
With a pink hotel, a boutique,
And a swinging hot spot.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got till it's gone?
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

Tá clipeanna de ag:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002MCD/qid=1145389027/sr=2-3/r ef=pd_bbs_b_2_3/102-4695714-9815354?v=glance&s=music

..."only our government have the power to revive it."

...if that's truly the case, then it's screwed. people like you revive it. ...

... agus is níos measa atá an scéal ...

- Cuimnímis áfach, más dream meata iad na hÉireannaigh i n-éis na gcéadta bliain den chos ar bolg, fós féin, caithfear an borradh faoi Na Gaeil Óga a chur sa mheá:

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=10070&

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/73832

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74168

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054902313

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~wilburt/

http://www.nuacht.com/story/?cat_id=1&newsid=9905

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=1053&viewby=date

Tá tacaíocht faighte ag an bhfeachtas ó Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, USI, NYCI, Conradh na Gaeilge, Gaelscoileanna Teo, Seachtain na Gaeilge Teo, Comhluadar, Raidió na Life, Ógras, Feachtas Óg-Ghluaiseacht na Gaeilge, Spleodar, Cumann na bhFiann, agus Fios Feasa. Tá riarachán an fheachtais maoinithe ag Foras na Gaeilge. http://www.irish.ie/using/living/events_details.asp?id=523
http://www.beo.ie/2006-04/caint.asp

http://www.nuacht.com/story/?newsid=9895&cat_id=1

www.comhdhail.ie/tostal2006/ Ciaran_Mac_Fhearghusa_GaeilOga.pdf

http://www.rte.ie/tv/theden/ddn/irishtext.html

Níl ach an t-aon bhealach amháin le gabháil againn, más ag caint ar an nGaeltacht a bheith i ndeireadh na feide agus í a bheith i gcosúlacht an dódó éin:

Is é sin, chun tosaigh.


Is é céad teacht na bprátaí úra Aonghus a fheiceáil i mbun méarchláir an athuair. Is é do bheatha ar ais!

Leag an seoladh seo ar fad in éindí isteach ar Ghúgal agus gheobhair na pictiúir is cuntas atá i gceist, sin nó b'fhéidir go n-oibreodh sé ceart mar atá anois:

www.comhdhail.ie/tostal2006/Ciaran_Mac_Fhearghusa_GaeilOga.pdf

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~wilburt/

I would'nt mind nailing that Aoife Ní Thuairsig!

A Robeirt,

What exactly do mean by word "nail"? to put nails into her fine flesh???

Horrified me

A mhalairt de uirlis a bhí i gceist ag an mbodach úd, sílim.

oh no,
nothing she wouldnt enjoy!

Táir an-chinnte díot fhéin, a Robert! Bronntanas Dé do mná na hÉireann tú, an ea?

(Message edited by aonghus on April 19, 2006)

A Aonghuis,

Is "táir" still current? I thought this form had never gained any acceptance as it is sits between 2 chairs of historically correct "taoi" and popular-colloquial "tánn".

Le meas

A Róman. Nílim cinnte. Bhraith sé ceart!

Suimím péin i gcanúint de Oileán Chléire. It is there that all those wonderful synthetic forms are still alive even more so than in Corca Dhuibhne. So the thing I noticed -

while "(Cá) bhfuilir?" and "Nílir" are OK and equal to "(Cá) bhfuileann tú?", "Níleann tú" - "Táir" is almost non-existant. Older people say (still!) "taoi", younger "tánn tú".

The reason is that "-ir" ending appeared only relatively late - 17-18 century, and the ending has failed to spread to irregular verbs. Therefore forms like "bír", "chír", "téir" (as present tense, not imperative), "tigir/tagair" are found only in grammar books, but not in live speach. "Táir" belongs to the same category.

Le meas

"Táir an-chinnte díot fhéin, a Robert! Bronntanas Dé do mná na hÉireann tú, an ea? "

Oh a real 'fear na mban', cinnte!

Róman, I suppose someone may have told you in an Irish post that I didn't understand that "nail" means "have sex with"?

I will add, it is not a violent or lecherous term where I come from, just a playful expression. I find nowadays, women are much more vulgar and expressive on such topics while in public and I hear that this is the case too in girl only groups.

Instead of a nail, we have another sharp metal object in this traditional rhyme (a translation exercise for you, Robert):

Bhí bean agam is bhí sí óg;
bhí sí pósta le gréasaí bróg.
Cha robh dhe phort aici
ó mhaidin Dé Domhnaigh
go maidin Dé Luain ach
"Ding do mheana bheag
suas in mo thóin.

A Dhonncha,

It was gross (is it spelled this way?) :((

"Ní mise a chum ná a cheap!"

This is a clichéd expression, one of the things a storyteller may say at the end of a tale: "Hey, I'm just passing along what I heard."

Conas a déarfá gross i nGaeilge?

Ní dhéarfainn ‘gross’, déarfainn lofa, a Dennis. Tá an iomarca foréigean sa domhan agus tá sé deacair do mná i gcónaí. Mar sin ní thaitníonn a leithead liom.

Thug mé faoi deara agus mé in Eirinn ag breathnú ar TG4 ar an Aimsir Láithreach ( Réamhaisnéis na haimsire) go scríobhann said Nua Eabhrac gan fleiscín agus smaoinigh mé ar an gcéad uair a cheartaigh tú mé. B’fhéidir gur mhaith leat scríobh chucu?

Caithfidh mé a rá go raibh sé iontach bheith sa bhaile agus an Ghaeilge a chloisteáil arís go nádúrtha gan chaint ar fleiscín ná tuiseal ná tada mar sin. I dteach na seandaoine a chaith mé an chuid is mó den am is tá neart scéalta acu. Is scéal eile ar fad é nuair atá muid ag éisteach leis an teanga beo. Níl mé chomh tuirseach sin anois. Meas tú an mairfidh sé?

Thanks for the comments.

I understand that a lot of the revival is up to us, but the government have the power to change the school curriculum (which is a big problem), provide more Gaelscoileanna, provide more jobs for Irish speakers. Surely all this would help immensely?

Back on signage, this is how the Scots do it: http://www.wackipedia.com/wiki/images/1/12/Sanas.jpg

Irish signage like this annoys me greatly: http://www.societe-jersiaise.org/langsec/irlandais/irlandais56.jpg

Ceart agat Ceolmhar. Could we make a petition here?

VERY LONG - Part I

I am really irritated.

Firstly we need to note that it is not 'the government" that is responsible for signage. It's the local authorities who have this task. The members of local authorities are elected every few years and that is the time to get after them and sharpen their enthusiasm for the Irish language. They are usually more accessible than Teachtaí Dála. So get after them.

However, successive governments, it has to be acknowledged, have poured untold sums into schemes for restoring the Irish language and the preservation of the Gaeltachtaí. Taxpayers' money, let it be noted. Still the situation is pitiful. It mainly seems to have been wasted. I am constantly amazed that no one is asking the why and how of such colossal and costly failure.

I believe that Irish will never be restored as a means of common communication unless the Irish people themselves wish to speak it and take this on willingly as a matter of pride and patriotism. Clearly that is not what they wish to do at present. The restoration of the language however cannot be a government led venture. That is what has been the problem so far. So many Irish people seem to hold the view that it is the government's responsibility; but that is blame-shifting and a momumental fudge.

Then the Irish disease: "ah, sure, it's alright! Why do we really need to speak Irish?" comes into play too. A symptom of this is the cúpla focal excuse for using Irish. Sorry. Cúpla focal is a cop-out. We need to bu up-front and honest. The cúpla focal is something that we might permit a child in it's first year of learning any language. It's not enough to restore a dying language. Perhaps this insouciance is a kind of intellectual laziness and/or stubbornness. Perhaps it's just a lack of national pride. Strange then that Irish people can be the most chauvinistic about their language I have ever come across here in mainland Europe.

Yes indeed. Here in France I have come across some Irish people who are inspired to (try to) speak Irish (some do it very well) mainly because their national pride is very dented when they find the French all around them speak French and are very keen on protecting their language agains Amero-English intrusions. I suspect some are actually shamed into such efforts as they make. So, no matter what "the government" does, the parlous state of Irish will remain unless Irish people make it their personal responsibility.

The Irish goverment's policies on the langauge are set out on the website of the Department of the Gaeltacht. They are (I have copied and pasted copiously here):

The Irish Language

The Irish language is a vital part of the living heritage of the State and an important natural resource in the Gaeltacht. A core task of the Department is to promote

the cultural, economic and social welfare of the Gaeltacht as the main source of the living language;

the reversal of the decline of Irish as the principal means of communication in the Gaeltacht;

and the extension of its use in the rest of the country, both North and South.

The Department supports and works closely with other agencies, particularly An Foras Teanga and Údarás na Gaeltachta, in pursuing its objectives.

Ciste na Gaeilge is a fund from which Irish language organisations and various Irish initiatives are grant-aided.

The Official Languages Act was signed into law in 2003. The Act provides a statutory framework for the delivery of services through the Irish Language.

The Placenames Branch researches the placenames of Ireland and provides authoritative Irish language forms of those placenames.

Iomairt Cholm Cille is a tripartite project, the main objectives of which are:

The strengthening of the links between Ireland (North and South) and Scotland;

and

The improvement of existing contacts between these communities.

Among the principal provisions of the Act are provisions that relate to:

Authority of Minister - with the consent of the Minister for Finance - to make regulations for the purpose of giving full effect to the provisions of this Bill. [Section 4]

The right of any person to use the Irish language before either House of the Oireachtas including any committee thereof.

Publication of Acts simultaneously in both official languages. [Section 7]

The right of a person to be heard in and to the use Irish language in court proceedings. [Section 8]

The duty of public bodies to ensure that the Irish language only, or the Irish and English languages together, are used, on oral advertisements, - whether they be live or recorded, on stationery, on signage and on advertisements under regulation to be made by the Minister. [Section 9(1)]

PART II follows

PART II

The duty of public bodies to reply to correspondence - in writing or by electronic mail - in the language in which that correspondence was written. [Section 9(2)]

The duty of public bodies to ensure that any communication providing information to the public - in writing or by electronic mail - is in the Irish language only or in the Irish and English languages. (Section 9(3))

The duty of public bodies, that are also State bodies, to publish certain documents that would be of interest to the public, in Irish and in English simultaneously, for example Annual Reports. [Section 10]

The duty of public bodies to prepare a scheme detailing the services that they will provide:

through the medium of Irish,
through the medium of English, and
through Irish and English;
and the measures to be adopted to ensure that any service not provided by the body through the medium of the Irish language will be so provided in the future (within a timeframe to be agreed - in effect, distinguishing between such services to be provided in lifetime of the current scheme and those to be addressed in a longer timeframe). [Section 11]

Guidelines will be prepared to assist public bodies in the drafting of a scheme. [Section 12]

The duty of public bodies to ensure that:
an adequate number of its staff are competent in the Irish language [Section 13 (2 (c)]

the particular Irish language requirements associated with the provision of services in Gaeltacht areas are met. [Section 13 (2 (d))]

the Irish language becomes the working language in its offices situated in the Gaeltacht areas within a certain timeframe to be agreed between the public body and the Minister . [Section 13 (2)(e]

The establishment of Oifig Choimisinéir na dTeangacha Oifigiúla to supervise and monitor the Act and to ensure that it is implemented. The Commissioner will be known as An Coimisinéir Teanga. The Commissioner will be independent in the performance of his or her functions and will be appointed by the President. [Section 20]

Official placenames in Gaeltacht areas being in the Irish language only and equal status being given to the Irish and English language versions of official placenames in other parts of the country. (Part 5)

The assigning of general responsibility to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs in regard to ensuring the delivery of State services through Irish. [Section 3, 4, 5, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17]

I'm not sure that any of this is aimed at the hearts and minds of people to win them to an acceptance and a love of what is really their own property. But that apart, it is hard to see what more can be done by a government, short of imposing penalties of fines and imprisonment on people for not using Irish - not advisable!. The compulsory approach, doggedly enforced for over 50 years, yielded no positive result whatsoever. So, the bottom line is either Irish people start speaking Irish or they vote it out of existence through sheer indifference and, let it be said, stupidity. Harsh but true.

As to making petitions, to whom? It is ungenerous and ungracious to attack successive governments of whatever hue. The fundamental fault lies with the Irish people themselves - with nobody else. Blame-shifting is just not on if the language is to survive. I would suggest instead asking questions of representatives in newspapers and at public events through the medium of Irish and shaming the public representatives into answering either in that language, or making them say when they will be able to do so, if necessary having put in some study. Perhaps a date should be set - say for 5 years down the line, when all Dáil debates will be required in Irish. Now that is ONE thing the government could do to show an earnest of goodwill. Perhaps those who care for the language could organise around that kind of a goal? The alternative for politicians who fail to meet such a requirement should be widely to be advertised as shams. Perhaps published reports of who does and doesn't use Irish in debates might also sharpen representatives enthusiasm in the interim.

There is one item, though, that I would like to see being made compulsory in aby approach to restoring Irish, that is the absolute banning of harsh criticism of those who are trying. It was once a common thing, and was more than enough to discourage learners in the past. Time enough for learning correct forms when enough of the language has been mastered to an intelligent use of reasoned guidance and correction to be made.

Also please don't feel I am having a go at any of the contributors to this thread. It would be a poor show to attack those who care. But I do feel that worrying overmuch about signage at this eleventh hour is attacking a symptom and not the cause of failure in all restoration attempts up to now. I believe I have identified here what the cause is and where it lies, and these are what need to be addressed urgently. Irish people need to be turned around in their attitudes towards their language. Sadly on this point I have no solutions to offer. The Welsh, Celtic cousins of the Irish have enough pride to note that cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon - a nation with a language is a nation without a heart. (For heart read pride.)

Feel free to shred me if you wish, but I have spoken from the heart.

I think that Irish gov, authorities, and councils do a fairly okay job of keeping Irish going. TG4, the only Irish-speaking channel is government funded, and I think that has really helped alot.
They probably dont do as much as they could possibly do, however I think they do more for the language then other governments would. (if that makes sense.)

What needs to happen now is for there to be a spark, the technology is there, most people in Ireland do have some degree of fluency thanks to the schools, now they just need the desire or drive to really make Irish a truely living language.

A Chatiríona,

Scríobh tú: B’fhéidir gur mhaith leat scríobh chucu?

An chaibidil sin thart, an ndúirt tú tamall ó shin? Feicim go bhfuil fonn troda ort fós. ;-)

Is cuid de stair na teanga é an rann sin. Fuair Éamonn Ó Tuathail ó Seán Ó Catháin é sa bhliain 1925, in Lios Liath sa Tuaisceart. N. J. A. Williams a d'fhoilsigh é in Éigse XIII (1970).

Maidir le "foréigean", níl mé cinnte faoi sin in aon chor. Is minic a bhíonn cíocras craicinn ar mhná óga (nach mbíonn?) agus suim ar leith ag an ógbhean i bhfod a fir; agus is minic a bhíonn leasainmneacha acu beirt ar a gcuid treallaimh. Tá sí pósta le gréasaí. An bhfuil sé chomh hiontach sin, really, go gcuirfeadh sí "meana" ar a bhod?

Smaoineamh eile: dúirt sí do mheana bheag leis. Beag! Ní maith le fear ar bith cloisteáil go bhfuil a philibín beag! Feictear domsa, ón méid sin, nach bhfuil an ógbhean seo gan chumhacht ná dánacht. Tá sí sách siúráilte di féin gur féidir léi (a) craiceann a éileamh chuile lá; agus (b) bod a fir a dhíspeagadh -- go grámhar, ar ndóigh. ;-)

Pangar_dubh, a chara,

I think your points were quite interesting and they were qquite valid. It is a really good point you mentioned about how local governing bodies are responsible for signage. Its also nice to be refreshed on the Languages Act, which I've seen in its full form on some website or other. I don't see how anyone could shred your arguments for they are quite well thought out. I think though that it would be just a bit unrealistic to expect that the Dail would have all debates in Irish by 2011 (in 5 years). I know its the principle of the thing that you wanted to express though. Thanks for taking the time to look the all of that information up and copy it for us.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Bhuel, a Dhennis, aontaím le Caitríona go raibh do scéilín lofa - truly awlful. Agus ní raibh mé pioc tógtha le tuairim Robert go mbeadh Aoife sásta luí leis ach oiread.

I've heard that sometimes sign makers even get away with not putting any Irish on signs, like in Dublin on freeway exits or some such. I seem to remember someone excusing it by saying that the signs were temporary. If someone else remembers reading an article about this or seeing such things themselves, you might elaborate for us. Temporary is no excuse. And it doesn't seem fair to have the Irish in little italics and the English large and dominant in the sign. I figure that people know which one they're going to read so they'll just look at that one and equal size won't be a distraction or anything.

"I think though that it would be just a bit unrealistic to expect that the Dail would have all debates in Irish by 2011 (in 5 years)."

Forgive me if I disagree with you, Riona. Since my move to France three years ago I have had to learn French. It is absolutely essential. If I wish to shop, deal with the local Mairie (essential when settling in), pay bills, open a bank account, eat in a restaurant, engage in a conversation with my neighbours, answer the telephone, go to the doctor or into hospital... It's all in French. And there is no exemption for anyone who comes here from abroad - regardless of their language skills they must very quickly gain a command of the country's language. Why should it be otherwise?

You will understand then that, if Irish governments are really serious about the restoration of Irish as the daily medium of communication in Ireland, it is essential that the members of government show good example. I feel that a 5 year period to learn Irish to a workable level is quite generous. It's certainly far longer than people who move to another country have to learn its language. Besides, deadlines sharpen the focus and make the goal clear.

I never said it wasn't possible, I just said it was unrealistic because the government would have to turn in its atitude towards the language and, while that would be great and all, it probably won't happen because too many people would whine and be opposed to it.

Riona, in your last posting you have encapsulated all that thas been the cause of failure in the language restoration programme over the years since independence in 1922. I congratulate you for being able to reduce it to such succinctness.

What is need is a change of attitudes and a generosity of spirit. These have been lacking utterly. What we have had, however, is a cynical 'nod' in the direction of Irish and an utter lack of action on the level that would be effective. That is why I mentioned earlier that a government-led restoration would not work.

Perhaps others here might be inspired to develop a strategem for the restoration of the language say within a 20 year period. That's almost a generation, so it's fair enough, given that children born as of now could be given opportunity and incentive to speak Irish. Such a strategem should also include the special role that the Gaeltachtaí should play.... It would be interesting to see what people come up with...

But backing away and saying it would be unrealistic to have Dail debates in Irish in say 5 years is only playing into the hand of those who say "sure it's alright; we couldn't do that". The groundwork is already done, thanks to schooling.

So, I find I have to say, if not in 5 years, then never. At this stage even 5 years is probably far too long. Irish doesn't have much time left after all. It will be a totally lost cause in 30 years time.

just a note pangur...learning by extended immersion is the fastest and most effective way. You had to move in order to do it. It would be hard for, say, the entire Dáil to immerse themselves for even a whole year by moving to the gaeltacht...and that's provided they'd find enough people to refuse to speak english to them to constitute 'immersion'

if even the people of the gaeltacht who are fluent would *refuse* to use english you'd see the language start to spread, but many there won't even use Irish among themselves if they know an english speaker's in earshot.

I was thinking along those lines, with regard to the Gaeltachtaí, in my previous posting. However, there is a certain grouping among Gaeltacht people who actually insist on using Irish. In meetings on their turf, I have had to have available simultaneous translation facilities for some colleagues whose Irish would not have been up to a sufficiently high level to cope with the cut and thrust of meetings in Irish.

But I don't believe it is either desirable or feasible for the government to move en masse to a Gaeltacht area. Anyway, it's not as though the deputies were starting ab initio. They are not. Most, if not all, will have studied Irish in school. They most likely already have a fair level of Irish that certainly would need to be polished and brought to a higher level of fluency, but the task of doing this would not be as daunting as starting from a base of zero knowledge. Immersion in the language need be for a limited period only, say during Oireachtas holidays

"But I don't believe it is either desirable or feasible for the government to move en masse to a Gaeltacht area."

The fact that they did not in 1922, but continued in the British city of Dublin; the fact that Conradh na Gaeilge and others were and still reside in such an English district says volumes more about their resolve and intent than anything they could ever say in Irish or English

Hi Robert. Dublin a British city? Granted it was the seat of English/British rule in Ireland down the centuries, but Dublin's its history is far older than that - so I find you comment a tad extreme, although I think I understand the thought that lies behind it. You probably know that the earliest origins of the city go back even before the arrival of the Vikings in the late 700s. The pattern of the two St. Stephen streets, glanced at on a map of the place, clearly follows the line of a large ring-fort - an old Irish monastery with a dedication to St. Peter, I believe. And the city's Irish name refers to a very ancient ford on the Liffey (Was this where the Slí Cuallan crossed the river?) Viking and Norman remains were unearthed and are now on display following excavations at Dublin Castle. Sorry. I think Dublin's roots are sufficiently Irish while being also somewhat eclectic.

But I would be concerned that any government should consider moving to a Gaeltacht area. It would be a death-blow to Irish in those regions. Just my opinion.

I agree. In most cases introducing english speakers to an irish speaking network of people doesn't help the english speakers with their irish but prompts the irish speakers to switch to english.

Let's now have a look the the Welsh government's policy on signage:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/CallaghanSquareSignCardiffCae rdydd200507_CopyrightKaihsuTai.jpg

Hmm, nothing like an Irish sign is it?

Having Irish in italics on our road signs suggests that the language is a secondary, unimportant language. I know it's a petty issue, but it's simple things like signage that advertise our identity as a nation.

Irish is the first official language of Ireland is it not? Who decided to have everything in feckin italics? This great italics idea even spread to the Gaeltachtaí too - all their Irish-only signage is in italics aswell... umm.. why? Why make the placenames harder to read for the native Irish speakers?
See here: http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/7793/irishsign5om.jpg

And here: http://www.mindspring.com/~dtalley/images/gaelicsignsm.GIF

Any reason for this other than stupidity?

It just annoys me that Scotland and Wales (non sovereign states) treat their original language (on signage) equally to English.. yet Irish signage suggests that 'gaelic' is secondary "sure nobody reads it anyway".

Scottish: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Sanas.jpg

Welsh: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7161/welsh6gj.jpg

Am I the only one here who has a problem with this?

Bah! I'm off to leaba. Oiche mhaith.

(Message edited by ceolmhar on April 26, 2006)

Tá mé leat a Cheolmhair.

GRMA a chara :)

And also, why is it that "Géill Slí" (yield) is not in italics but "Stad" (stop) is?

"Géill Slí" http://www.travelsinireland.com/touring/sign.gif
"Stad" http://www.chuckbrodsky.com/Road%20Signs/Irish%20language%20Stop%20sign.jpg

A reminder of good old italics: http://www.dunnes.net/harry/images/0499trip/roadsign.jpg

You're ever so right a chara, that really is embarrassing that Ireland can't give its language the standing it deserves, whareas other places, who aren't independent states, seem to be able to do so. I think that the signage issue is just a symptom of the problem though. Irish just isn't reguarded as being as valid or important as English. I'd venture to say that this is the underlying problem here.

I really find it ridiculous.

Why can't you just skip English signage altogether? And live only Irish? There is no proficiency in Irish required to read the signs. After initial grumble everybody would adjust.

quote:

Having Irish in italics on our road signs suggests that the language is a secondary, unimportant language.

What little I know about correct writing leads me to think that it's the English that should be in italics, since English is the foreign language and it's the foreign language that is italicized when writing.

But I must say I like Róman's idea best - who needs English anyway?

Mea culpa, "live" in my post of course means "leave".

Just to make it even more fun - in my oountry even foreign cities' names get written in Lithuanian, although original name is also provided (sometimes he-he-he) below.

So you have e.g. "Varšuva" (Warsaw), Maskva (Moscow) and sic! - Tilžė (Sovetsk), Karaliaučius (Kaliningrad), Gumbinė (Gusev).

The reason for such divergence in the 3 last one is simple. Those town are situated in former East Prussia, so the originally German cities had similarly sounding Lithuanian names. But after WW2 East Prussia was taken by Russians, who changed all the names into some bullshit, like (Red-army-city, Soviet-city and so on), and we kept the old ones. So it is really funny what you see on signage and it drives Russians nuts. We pretend we don't notice ;))

Le meas

Roman's idea is definitely a hot one, how neat that would be. Really interesting point about what should be classified as foreign by Student Of Signposts.