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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (March-April) » Archive through April 07, 2006 » Tar « Previous Next »

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 12:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi!

What are the equivalents of ‘tiocfaidh {mé}’ in the North and in the Sahff ? ;) Say, forms of the ‘tig-’ root? Ways of pronouncing it, (/t’ak- t’ok’- t’uk-/ or others, e.g.) if you don’t mind.

Peter

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1081
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 01:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I pronounce it very similar to the English language name, "Chucky".

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 1286
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 04:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

What are the equivalents of ‘tiocfaidh {mé’ in the North and in the Sahff ? ;)}

What is the Sahff?

Tiocfaidh mé is tiocfaidh mé in the north. [ˈtʲɔkhə m´a]

Say, forms of the ‘tig-’ root? Ways of pronouncing it, (/t’ak- t’ok’- t’uk-/ or others, e.g.) if you don’t mind.

Present: thigeam, thig tú... thig muid /hig'/... ní thigeam, cha dtigeam...

Past: tháinig mé, tháinig muid /hanik'/... ní tháinig mé, cha dtáinig mé

Future: tiocfaidh mé, tiocfaidh muid /t'okhə/, tiocfaidh Seán /t'okhi s'æːn/... ní thiocfaidh mé, cha dtigeam

Conditionnal: thiocfainn, thiocfá, thiocfadh sé /hokhət´s´e/, thiocfadh muid/thiocfasmaid... thiocfadh Seán /hokhu s´æːn/... ní thiocfadh sé, cha dtiocfadh sé...

Imperative: tar, taraigí...

Hope it's clear. If I've forgotten forms, tell me

Tír Chonaill abú!

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Peter
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Username: Peter

Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 05:55 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks.

>>> What is the Sahff?

South, sorry if it led you astray.

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 02:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Pheadair,

Tiocfaidh mé = tiocfad in Munster pronounced with broad [t] in Corca Dhuibhne (as if spelled tucad) and slender [t'] in Múscraí.

quote:

Tiocfaidh mé is tiocfaidh mé in the north. [ˈtʲɔkhə m´a]

A Lughaidh,
Are you sure there is a [kh] there? I thought it is plain [k] over there. Otherwise it is impossible to explain some mixing up of future with imperfect in the North.

quote:

thigeam

Cinnte, tá an cheist amháin agam - do slender labials exist in the North at the end of word at all?

Le meas

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 03:32 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks again.

Actually what I got from the book ‘Глагольное словоизменение в ирландском языке’ (Irish Verbal Inflection) is:

(Kerry, Ring) t’ukəd, t’ukə ∫e

(South-West and North-West Kerry) taki ∫ə, takəd’ ∫iəd, takig’ ∫e (though I expected this kind of vowel change to happen in the North)

(Clare) t’əkfəd, t’əkə m’e, t’ək’ər’, t’əkə tu, t’əkfə ∫e, t’ək’ə ∫e

The book is mostly based on Wagner’s atlases, but I’m not sure of the transcription provided there. Maybe for the sake of simplification the author made use only of the ‘ə’ symbol where Wagner had his famous diacritics + i o etc.

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 62
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 04:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Pheadair,

Tá an leabhar so agam leis. But there are plenties of mistakes there. I checked their appendices with original sources (mainly "Irish of ..." series) and found the quality of transcription wanting. E.g. Jartseva is maintaining that in Múscraí "do-ním" is used which is transcribed as [dën'im']. Whereas inspection of "Irish of West Muskerry" le Brian Ó Cuív reveals that while spelling "do ním" (as all spellings are given in classical Dineen's way)is used the pronunciation given is [d'in'im'], e.g. as if spelled *dinim. So be careful with using this source.
quote:

(Kerry, Ring) t’ukəd, t’ukə ∫e

An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhbe disagrees stating that "t" is broad, the same can be found in Doyle's textbook based on Ciarraí dialect. Don't know about An Rinn though.
quote:

South-West and North-West Kerry taki ∫ə, takəd’ ∫iəd, takig’ ∫e (though I expected this kind of vowel change to happen in the North)

Are sure to speak about Ciarraí? Sounds like Conamara.
quote:

(Clare) t’əkfəd, t’əkə m’e, t’ək’ər’, t’əkə tu, t’əkfə ∫e, t’ək’ə ∫e

I thought that in Cape Clear [f] is pronounced. There is some confusion regarding Clare and Clear around :(

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The book is awful you’re absolutely right, there are even more terrific and inexplicable mistakes, e.g. “he used to go to school every day” is rendered as “theinn sé ar scoil gach lá” or, alternatively, ‘bhionn ag dul ar scoil gach lá” ?!?!? That’s why I can’t take Russian Celtogy seriously; the most astonishing is that these are MSU philologists. Embarrassing, disconcerting, gosh :(((

That’s the reason why I asked you - to prove what’s written. How are things in Lithuania in that respect, anyway?

Sounds like Conamara

Na, it is /t’ukə m’e(:)/ there.

Cheers

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 65
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

How are things in Lithuania in that respect, anyway?

Very well - there is no Celtology, so there are no mistakes bouahahaha :))) The language is not even taught as optional subject at university in Vilnius :(

quote:

théinn sé ar scoil gach lá

What's wrong with that?

Pé sceul é, I checked "irish of Waterford" - they say "tiocfad" with slender [t’]

So in Munster you have either [tukəd] (Ciarraí) or [t’ukəd] (Corcaigh, An Rinn, Cléire). Clare is usually the same as Waterford.
quote:

t’əkfəd, t’əkə m’e, t’ək’ər’, t’əkə tu, t’əkfə ∫e, t’ək’ə ∫e

Actually this implies thay you have stressed schwa - what a nonsense!

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

“he used to go to school every day”

“théadh sé ar scoil gach lá”, is dóigh liom

FRC

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Róman
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Username: Róman

Post Number: 66
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

théinn ar scoil gach lá - I used to go ... Sorry, didn't notice it is he over there. Gabh mo leithscéal...

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 67
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Pheadair,

why do you study Conamara brogue? C'mon as a representative of inflectional language yourself you should love Munster more! Join the real lovers of unspoilt Irish :))))

Le meas

(Message edited by Róman on March 23, 2006)

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 11:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

why do you study Conamara brogue? C'mon as a representative of inflectional language yourself you should love Munster more! Join the real lovers of unspoilt Irish :))))

Learning materials, in the first place. I took to learning Irish completely on my own in the May 2004 with the LI, and before that I found that wonderful chart of the Learner’s dialect (based on Connacht Irish) at www.smo.uhi.ac.uk, it made me think of how Irish must really sound.

Earlier I used to learn the munsterised caighdeán of Irish available at the Irish People (nice course, btw), and in the winter 2003-04 I had a whack at the same ‘musterised’ Irish with a teacher... Though I soon realised the inconsistency of what I was taught, first and foremost, with respect to Irish phonetics. Why /k’aun/, /aun/, but not /daun/, /i:m’/ then, why /ca`l’i:n’/, but /`b’anəxt/ ?? I couldn’t understand that, especially when I was told it was Munster Irish :(

Taithníonn seán-nós Chonamara liom, chun an fhírinne a rá, taithníonn sé liom éisteacht le cainteoirí dúchais Chonamara ag caint. Tá blas na fíor-Ghaeilge ina gcuid cainte i gcomórtas lena lán dhár chualas ó chainteoirí na gcanúintí eile, ach m’fhéidir nach raibh seans agam ariamh na cainteoirí is fearr dhíobh a chloisteáil.

Le meas, Peter

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 69
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 01:36 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I found that wonderful chart of the Learner’s dialect (based on Connacht Irish)

Remedy Nr 1: get yourself a copy of "Irish of West Muskerry" by Brian Ó Cuív, then you will understand that Múscraí dialect is much simpler than Conamara's Irish - there are no tense [L'], [N'] sounds for example.

quote:

Learning materials, in the first place.

There is wonderful "Teach Yourself Irish" (old edition) by Dillon.

quote:

Why /k’aun/, /aun/, but not /daun/, /i:m’/ then, why /ca`l’i:n’/, but /`b’anəxt/ ??

Could you specify what was confusing for you? If you mean diphtongisation - then there is plenty of this in Conamara as well - witness bord [baurd] or soilse [sail's'i]. So this is not the argument. I give a try - ceann, ann have [au], donn also has [au] (or [ou] in conservative speech), im is pronounced [i:m'] in Múscraí and Corca Dhuibhne and [aim'] in An Rinn. Ok - I give up. I don't understand what confuses you :)))

Я понял, что ты написал, но ответить тебе по-ирландски пока не могу. Мунстерский диалект намного интереснее потому что он архаичнее и на нём богатая литература, короче это язык аристократов. А Конамара и Рос мук, как само название подсказывает - для свинопасов :)))

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 01:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi!

there are no tense [L'], [N'] sounds for example

Ain’t got no problem with palatalised dentals. Say, I like the diversity ;)

There is wonderful "Teach Yourself Irish" (old edition) by Dillon

Great book indeed. I’ve held it in my hands once. Are there any recordings available, btw?

ceann, ann have [au], donn also has [au] (or [ou] in conservative speech), im is pronounced [i:m'] in Múscraí and Corca Dhuibhne and [aim'] in An Rinn

You are right. Ok, maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough. What I wanted to say was there is an obvious inconsistency when one tends to pronounce

ceann as /k’aun/

cailín as /ka`l’i:n’/

on the one hand (Munster Irish), but

donn as /don/

im as /im’/

beannacht as /b’anəxt/

on the other (CO?). That’s me point. Either or.

А Конамара и Рос мук, как само название подсказывает - для свинопасов :)))

Ara, agus tádar ina gcónaí sa bportach agus sa gcriathrach agus sa gcorcach agus sa riasc agus san abar... :)

Ach ní miste liom свинопасы ach Gaeilge a bheith acab (если они...). And do you recall ‘an Béal Bocht’ (you can find the Russian version at irish.ru (at the old version of the site)), Corca Dorcha aka Corca Dhuibhne, разве они по старому доброму ирландскому обычаю не спят вместе со свиньями? Muimhnigh a bhí iontu. ;)

As for literature, bhoil, they got some nice stuff in Connemara too. I enjoyed reading Ó Conaire – though I failed to find ‘Cladaí Chonamara’, both the book and the RTE talking book (they got Munster authors in the series as well), any ideas maybe?

Le meas, Peter

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 72
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 02:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Ain’t got no problem with palatalised dentals. Say, I like the diversity ;)

I meant (a pointless to me) distinction of [L'] and [l'] as well as [N'] vs [n'], 'cause broad consonants have been merged in Conamara (so, no [n] and no [l]).
quote:

Great book indeed. I’ve held it in my hands once. Are there any recordings available, btw?

Cinnte! There were LPs, which I have as mp3's. Technology is evolving you know ;))
quote:

there is an obvious inconsistency when one tends to pronounce

Hold on. Where is inconsistency? That Munstermen say [k'aun] and Conamara says [k'a:n]? Ok, what about these specimens:

Munster Conamara
[bo:rd] [baurd] bord
[si:l's'i] [sail'si] soilse
[ahar'] [ae:r'] athair
[rih] [ru] (!!) rith
and so on, and so on

Conamara pronunciation is in no way more valid or BETTER than any other. And if you think that Conamara is any jot more acceptable than say Dún na nGall, or Ciarraí then I must dissappoint you - you are wrong.

Btw - you got your examples wrong:
beannacht is [b'anëxt] in Conamara and [b'i'naxt] in Munster - I see no tragedy in shifting stress
donn is NOT pronounced [don] in Conamara - it is [do:n], it is [don] in parts of Mayo only.
the same goes for im - [i:m'] in Conamara as it is in Munster (bar Waterford). So again, where is inconsistency???

Actually are you trying to say that someone has taught you to pronounce all the words above as you transcribed? Then that person doesn't speak ANY dialect as there is no such caint where all words would be pronounced the way you have given. Some pronunciations are Munster's, other Mayo's - mish-mash.

tádar=? táthar? bhíodar?
criathar = сито? как можно жить в сите???
corcach=?
acab = какое уродство! настоящие свинопасы, это же надо было так язык испоганить!!!
Is fearr liom Gaelainn na Múscraí ná Gaelainn an Chorca Dhuibhne :P Вообще собираюсь перебираться в Ирландию. И тогда я скажу тебе: Ис ас Коркигь ме :РРР

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 04:32 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

[ahar'] [ae:r'] athair
[rih] [ru] (!!) rith


It’s /a(:)hər’/ mostly (except for CF and Aran Islands, maybe); /ru/ presents a regular vowel change of [i] into [u] since it is surrounded by the broad consonants, I should say: bruith /bru/, suigh /su/, sroich /sro/, loigh /Lo/ (=luigh CO) etc. And /ri:xt/, /ri:x’/ (Carna, CF) as well.

in Conamara - it is [do:n]

Na. /dauN/ exceptionally; and exceptionally níos doinne /dauN’ə/; /diN’ə/ as well, but, probably, not so often. And if it were treated regularly, it’d be more like /du:N/ because of /N/.

Actually are you trying to say that someone has taught you to pronounce all the words above as you transcribed? Then that person doesn't speak ANY dialect as there is no such caint where all words would be pronounced the way you have given. Some pronunciations are Munster's, other Mayo's - mish-mash.

Yep.

Ara, agus tádar ina gcónaí sa bportach agus sa gcriathrach agus sa gcorcach agus sa riasc agus san abar...

Да, и живут они в болоте (portach) и в болоте (criathrach) и в болоте (corcach) и в болоте (riasc) и в болоте (abar) :) Богат и могуч ирландский язык, однако...

tádar=? táthar? bhíodar?

tádar = tá siad, simple as it is. Connemara brogue ;)

acab = какое уродство! настоящие свинопасы, это же надо было так язык испоганить!!!

And how do they pronounce it in Munster?

Вообще собираюсь перебираться в Ирландию. И тогда я скажу тебе: Ис ас Коркигь ме :РРР

Ok, к тому времени мой почтовый адрес измениться на Indreabhán, Condae na Gaillimhe ;)))

Peter

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 73
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 04:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

tádar is simply wrong. -dar is past tense ending, tá is present tense. Such form is impossible. Either táid (siad) or (do) bhíodar.

acab is only CF form. All normal people say as it is written - acu. [ë'ku].

Но вообще-то criathar - это сито.
Indreabhán - надолго? уже едешь? А я всё никак не могу выбрать работу :))) Придётся наверно в Бля Клиа - выбор по-солиднее :((

(Message edited by Róman on March 25, 2006)

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 09:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

tádar is simply wrong

Ba cheart duit an méid seo ó "Gaeilge Chonnacht" le Ruairí Ó hUiginn, in Stair na Gaeilge lch. 584, a léamh:

"Tig leis na deirí 'táite' seo [-dar, etc.] an bhéim a ghlacadh (GCF 69), agus is éard a áitíonn Greene (1973, 129-31) gur mar fhocail neamhspleácha a chaitear leo. Is léir mar sin go bfhuil siad faoi mar a bheadh forainmneacha neamhspleácha ann, agus ní hiontas ar bith go scaipeann siad go dtí aimsirí eile den bhriathar nár bhain siad ó thús leo. Tugann de Bhaldraithe na foirmeacha tádar, níleadar, agus -bhfuileadar (GCF 107-8) atá bunaithe ar bhíodar srl., agus cé gur dhóigh le Greene (1973, 129) gur foirmeacha cearta táite iad, léiríonn taighde Nielsen (1974) go bhfuil dáileadh i bhfad níos leithne ar dar -- go háirithe i dtuaisceart Chonamara -- sa chaoi is gur féidir é a úsáid le mórán gach uile bhriathar sna haimsirí uile go léir. Cé gurb é -dar an foirceann is mó a bhfuil leathadh tagtha air, tá foircinn eile in úsáid ar an gcaoi chéanna, m.sh. dá bhfeiceadh muist (de Búrca 1958, 104; féach freisin McGonagle, 1986). Tá fianaise curtha ar fáil ag Mahon (1993) chomh maith ar an bhfoirceann -mar, sa chéad phearsa iolra, a bheith in úsáid ar an gcaoi chéanna. Cuid de na samplaí seo, téann siad siar go dtí tús na haoise seo caite, m.sh. go bhfuigheamar (Ó Tiománaí, 1906, 78), beidh mar (Mahon, 1993, 83)."

• CGF = Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: an deilbhíocht
• Greene 1973 = "Synthetic and analytic: a reconsideration", Ériu 24
• Nielsen 1974 = "A new third person plural subject pronoun", Éigse 15
• de Búrca 1958 = The Irish of Tourmakeady, Co. Mayo
• Mahon 1993 = "First plural mar in Connacht Irish", Éigse 27
• Ó Tiománaí 1906 = Amhráin Ghaeilge an Iarthair

Nach bhfuil sé sin suimiúil?

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Peter
Member
Username: Peter

Post Number: 59
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 03:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

tádar is simply wrong. -dar is past tense ending, tá is present tense. Such form is impossible. Either táid (siad) or (do) bhíodar.

An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonamara (p. 28)
‘In some places some people use dor instead of siad after a verb: bíonn dor anseo go minic, nuair a thiocfas dor arís . Tá dor (instead of Tá siad) is very often used’.

Actually in ‘bhuaileadar’, say, the 3 Pers. Pl. suffix can get stressed and then it’ll be pronounced as /`dor/. But normally it’s unstressed, thus it is irrelevant how to spell it, ‘bíonn dor’ or ‘bíonndar’, ‘tá dor’ or ‘tádar’. According to de Bhaldaithe ‘tádar’ was in use in CF 50 years ago (and that’s how he spells it), other forms with –dar were not used there though. So, face it: tádar, tádar, tádar ;))

Но вообще-то criathar - это сито.

criathrach (m1, Pl.: criathraigh /-ə/, criathraí /-i:/) bog (CF Irish)

Indreabhán - надолго? уже едешь? А я всё никак не могу выбрать работу :))) Придётся наверно в Бля Клиа - выбор по-солиднее :((

Еще пока нет, даже не искал ничего. Идея такая есть, конечно. Насколько осуществимо это в ближайшие год-два, вопрос: сейчас у меня 4 курс, летом – военные сборы (sucks!).

Le meas, Peter

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Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 05:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

У вас призывают филологов? Вот жеж долбанная страна! :(( А я закончил когда магистратуру - меня уволили в запас и всё - свободен.
quote:

According to de Bhaldaithe ‘tádar’ was in use in CF 50 years ago (and that’s how he spells it), other forms with –dar were not used there though.

Oh, sorry, I have almost forgotten, that you are so fond of "muid"! So "dar"/"dor" fits nicely. Moi-même, I use only "sinn". And I say táimíd (with a long í), and in past: bhíos, bhís, bhí sé, bhíomair, bhíobhair (pronounced bhíúir), bhíodar. Scary, ain't it? Как я и сказал - есть язык аристократов, а есть свинопасов :))) Кстати обрати внимание: на Юге - garsún, на Севере - buachaill. Комментарии излишни :))

(Message edited by Róman on March 26, 2006)

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 882
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

If I may enter the discussion, I think I understand the point Peter makes very well. He thinks that the pronunciation of Munster Irish is inconsistent, and I can understand that. When I started to learn Irish, I found the pronunciation of Irish in general confusing - and once I entered into the wonderful realm of Kerry Irish, there was much I found inconsistent.

As Róman rightly points out, there are no inconsistencies. The pronunciation of Munster Irish is very logic and clear and the pronunciation rules are easy to learn. However, for someone who has used only Learning Irish (as I did, and as Peter has done) it might at first seem confusing. Once you get used to the Irish of West Munster, nothing could be easier. I fully agree with Róman, whoever reads The Irish of West Muskerry will find how very straightforward the pronunciation is.

On a related topic - and For the 4834th time - I'd like to lament the absence of any good Ulster Irish book along the lines of The Irish of ... The pronunciation guidelines outlined in those five books are the best I've ever found.

ps I haven't written in Russian, but you are perfectly free to answer in Irish, Russian or English.

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Dennis
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Post Number: 1191
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Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 11:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonamara (p. 28)
‘In some places some people use dor instead of siad after a verb: bíonn dor anseo go minic, nuair a thiocfas dor arís . Tá dor (instead of Tá siad) is very often used’.

Cén fáth ar aistrigh tú an méid sin, Peter? Nach léann do leathbhádóir sa díospóireacht seo Gaeilge? Pé scéal é, feicim nár aistrigh tú an abairt dheireanach: "Breathnaíonn a lán daoine ar an nós seo mar thruailliú, agus níor cheart don fhoghlaimeoir aithris a dhéanamh air."

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Róman
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Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 11:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Eonais,

Ní aointaím leat. If somebody (hypothetically) studied Irish of Erris or Tourmakeady - then YES, they would find Munster Irish confusing.But not in case of Conamara. [k'aun] is no more confusing than [baurd] is, whereas [ru] for "rith" is REALLY confusing. As well as "acub" and assorted other things (like total mix-up of copula's past tense with question forms of present), usage of dative in place of nominative, eclipses after "sa", some "extra" -í in plural and many other things. This all is confusing indeed.

Regarding Munster. Still there several things that make me nervous whenever I see them - "oi" (is it [o] or [i]), or for example word "ríomhaire". How is it supposed to be read - [ri:'u:r`i] or what? Why buint (CO - baint) is pronounced with short [i], whereas muintir with a long [i:]. Not everything is crystall clear in Munster - but still much more clear than in CF. And no monstrosities like "tádar", baochas le Dia.

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Róman
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Post Number: 77
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Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Cén fáth ar aistrigh tú an méid sin, Peter?

Cause not everybody is at ease reading grammar texts in Irish, for God's sake, Dennis! and if I (yet) can't read in Irish, it doesn't mean I am not interested in the topic.

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Dennis
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Post Number: 1192
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Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

if I (yet) can't read in Irish, it doesn't mean I am not interested in the topic

You don't find it even slightly ironic that a person who cannot read Irish is so very eagar, at every moment, to tell us what is right and what is "simply wrong" about Irish, what is aristocratic and what is piggish, which individuals and groups in Ireland are to be condemned for their Irish, and so on? Can't you possibly be "interested in the topic" without indulging in all the opinionated beachtaíocht?

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Róman
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 01:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dennis, for your surprise there are plenties of books on history, grammar, syntax of Irish language in ENGLISH. If you have forgotten, the biggest advances in Celtology have been done by FOREIGNERS. Maybe, 'cause the Irish don't care for their language themselves? So one does not have to be native in order to be able to discuss, compare such things, especially in the case of IRISH which is ignored by 97% of "natives". This is the first point.

And the second point is that if my private correspondence with Peter had been meant for the general public, it would have been in English, and not in Russian, which you don't understand very well not distinguishing between hard talk and jokes. So don't draw momentous conclusions based on your inferior understanding of Russian, it is just ridiculous.

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Peter
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Post Number: 60
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 04:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi there, let me see, where we are now...


"Breathnaíonn a lán daoine ar an nós seo mar thruailliú, agus níor cheart don fhoghlaimeoir aithris a dhéanamh air."

Sea, ach ó bhaineann an leabhairín seo le Gaeilge canúna, is féidir an abairt seo a chur ag tús an leabhair mar motto ;)

Dennis, ich bin erstaunt. Gibt es einige Sprachen, auf denen du nicht lesen kannst? Hast du mit Frau Mikhailova auf Englisch oder auf Russisch verkehrt? :))

У вас призывают филологов? Вот жеж долбанная страна! :(( А я закончил когда магистратуру - меня уволили в запас и всё - свободен.

Да, and we’ll never see the like of her again, за это мы ее и любим.

У меня специальность «прикладная лингвистика», так что, строго говоря, я не филолог. А готовят меня на военного переводчика (ну, допросы военнопленных, там, пытки, в общем, как положено, все по уставу ;))). Бум надеяться, меня тоже в запас отправят, ведь тут офицеры не нужны, тут солдат подавай, побольше б забрить да в кирзачи обуть...

Peter

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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 09:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Gibt es einige Sprachen, auf denen du nicht lesen kannst?

Is ar éigean gur féidir liom do theangasa a léamh! D'fhoghlaim mé Rúisis nuair a bhí mé ar meánscoil, ach tá an chuid is mó di caillte agam cheal úsáide, faraor!
quote:

Hast du mit Frau Mikhailova auf Englisch oder auf Russisch verkehrt?

Wir haben korrespondiert auf Irisch, más buan mo chuimhne. Tá mé cinnte gur i nGaeilge a scríobh mise chuici, ar aon chuma.

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Dennis
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Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

A gotobyat menya na voennogo perevodchika

(Maith dom na litreacha Rómhánacha, ach níl an méarchlár eile curtha i bhfeidhm agam.) Tá ceist agam ort, mura miste leat, Peter: cé hiad na teangacha atá tú a fhoghlaim le bheith i d'aistritheoir míleata? Ná habair liom go bhfuil suim ag Arm na Rúise ("the Red Army" a bhíodh againn air) sa Ghaeilge!?!

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Dennis
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Post Number: 1205
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Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scríobh Peter:

And do you recall ‘an Béal Bocht’ ..., Corca Dorcha aka Corca Dhuibhne, pazve oni po staromy... [= nach gcodlaíonn siad leis na muca ar an sean-nós Gaelach?] Muimhnigh a bhí iontu. ;)

I don't think we can simply equate Corca Dorcha with Corca Dhuibhne, although the resemblance of the two names was clearly intentional. It may not be apparent in either the English or the Russian translation, but Myles na gCopaleen deliberately, and rather even-handedly, mixed together features of all the Gaeltachts in his satire. He mixed dialect features, and topography, and clichés from all the "Gaeltacht Classics"... and just about everything else "Gaelach" he could get his hands on.

An Béal Bocht ar an leabhar is greannmhaire dár scríobhadh riamh i nGaeilge, dar liomsa.

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Peter
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Post Number: 62
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 07:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Haigh!

Tá ceist agam ort, mura miste leat, Peter: cé hiad na teangacha atá tú a fhoghlaim le bheith i d'aistritheoir míleata? Ná habair liom go bhfuil suim ag Arm na Rúise ("the Red Army" a bhíodh againn air) sa Ghaeilge!?!

Ar feadh m’eolais ní ullmhaítear fiú amháin speisialtóirí sna Fórsaí Armtha Sasanacha sa tír seo. Ní mhúintear an té a fhoghlaimeanns Béarla ar ollscoil (e.g. mé féin, i mBéarla an luicht mhíleata a mhúintear mé) ach sa gcóras míleata den Stáit Aontaithe Mheireaca, mar gheall ar go bhfanann sibh a bheith inár bpríomhnámhaidí folaigh fós, dhá aistí é a chloisteáil ag an am seo :) Tá mé i m’aistritheoir mhíleata mar tá mé freagrach as an seirbhís mhíleata (?=because I’m liable for military service) 7 caithfidh sé go bhfuil spesialtacht mhíleata eicínt ag ‘chuile fhear anseo mara dtaithníonn sé leis a bheith ina shaighdúr ar feadh dhá bhliain.

Má thosaíonn Fórsaí Armtha Mheireaca ag úsáid na Gaeilge mar, say, teanga rúnda lucht na bhfomhuireáin, cinnte dearfa, foghlaimfear anseo go scioptha í … ;)

nach gcodlaíonn siad leis na muca ar an sean-nós Gaelach?

Togha fir, Dennis! ;)

It may not be apparent in either the English or the Russian translation, but Myles na gCopaleen deliberately, and rather even-handedly, mixed together features of all the Gaeltachts in his satire. He mixed dialect features, and topography, and clichés from all the "Gaeltacht Classics"... and just about everything else "Gaelach" he could get his hands on.

I do recall the episode of the main character (Jams O Donnall a bhí air, dar liom :)) – 7 é ina leanbh – seeing through the window of their Irish-weather-beaten hut the main strongholds of the Irish-speaking world, those in Munster, cladaí Chonamara, some parts of Donegal…

Tá An Béal Bocht ar an leabhar is greannmhaire dár scríobhadh riamh i nGaeilge, dar liomsa.

Sea, an-leabhar í!

Le meas, Peter

(Message edited by peter on March 30, 2006)

(Message edited by peter on March 30, 2006)

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Peter
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Post Number: 63
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 07:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Roman,

According to Economist, 10th Dec.

Bla-bla-bla Lithuanians are going to allocate some thousands of euros so to organise a Lithuanian school in Dublin for their compatriots currently living and working in Ireland (for their children, I mean). There must be lots of Lithuanian mates there, I gather, some of them may even have some moderate knowledge of Irish, why not, then? (Presque quotation from an article; my comment provided)

Cheers

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Róman
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Post Number: 92
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 08:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are plenties of Lithuanians in Ireland, they are the second most numeruos minority after Poles. There might be some 50-70 ths of them. However, I strongly doubt any of them has any capacity in Irish. Majority of them are people from small town or villages in Lithuania, so some of them struggle with English, and besides you don't need any Irish in Ireland to make living. That's the sad state of affairs.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1211
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Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Má thosaíonn Fórsaí Armtha Mheireaca ag úsáid na Gaeilge mar, say, teanga rúnda lucht na bhfomhuireáin, cinnte dearfa, foghlaimfear anseo go scioptha í … ;)

Tá a fhios agat, is dócha, gur baineadh úsáid as na teangacha Navajo agus Comanche mar sin i rith an Dara Cogadh Domhanda. Code Talkers an t-ainm a bhí orthu.

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Peter
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Post Number: 65
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Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 08:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá a fhios agat, is dócha, gur baineadh úsáid as na teangacha Navajo agus Comanche mar sin i rith an Dara Cogadh Domhanda. Code Talkers an t-ainm a bhí orthu.

Sea, baineadh leas as teangacha mhuintireacha Siberia (m. sh. Jakut , is dóigh) sa Rúis leis an aidhm chéanna. hÚsáideadh daoine de na muintireacha seo mar scríobhaithe (ïèñàðü sa Rúisís) leis an bhfoireann d’aonad míleata (with the staff of an army unit) mar gheall air gur scríobh siad go han-slachtmhar mar ní raibh Rúisís phaitianta acab.

Le meas, Peter

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Dennis
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Post Number: 1217
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Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

scríobh siad go han-slachtmhar mar ní raibh Rúisís phaitianta acab

Deirtear -- nó deirtí ar aon nós -- go bhfuil an West Highland English an-cheart agus an-taitneamhach toisc gur fhoghlaim siad ar scoil é, mar dhara teanga. Ní dara teanga anois é, ar ndóigh, ach tá a gcuid Béarla an-deas go fóill.

Nó mar a dúirt Henry Higgins in My Fair Lady:

Her English is too good
That clearly indicates she is foreign
Whereas other people are instructed in their
Native language, English people aren't.

(Message edited by dennis on March 31, 2006)



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