Everybody knows a relative particle "a" is used in questions following cathain, cad, conas, cé 7rl. While there is no controversy with other verbs some variation exists with "tá" in present tense and "deirim" in present and past. Just to get my own writing habit settled, what is the more usual forms of those:

1) Cad atá sa tseomra? Cé atá sa tsiopa? Conas ataoi? Cad adeir(ir)? Cad aduairt sé?

2) Cad tá sa tseomra? Cé tá sa tsiopa? Conas taoi? Cad deir(ir)? Cad duairt sé?

3) Cad a tá sa tseomra? Cé a tá sa tsiopa? Conas a taoi?Cad a deir(ir)? Cad a duairt sé?

While 3) is most probably wrong right away - I left it as I have seen spellings like these. So how do you write? What is the most appropriate choice in your opinion?

Actually, writing "cad tá sa (t)seomra" is grammatically wrong (because there is an "a" particle since all regular verbs and most irregular ones have a séimhiú), but what people say sound like this because the relative particle "a" is seldom pronounced!

So, write:

Cad atá sa (t)seomra? Cé atá sa (t)siopa? Conas ataoi? Cad adeir(ir)? Cad adúirt sé?

But most people say (I think, because I don't know very well the Munster pronounciations of these sentences)

Cad ’tá sa tseomra? Cé ’tá sa tsiopa? Cnus ’taoi?...

Maybe people pronounce "a" more often after cad so they don't have to pronounce d+t, which could be a bit unclear. In Ulster we use "cad é" instead of "cad", so in most cases we don't pronounce the "a" because the "é" is a vowel so we don't have a sequence of consonants:

Cad é ’tá sa tseomra? Cé ’tá sa tsiopa? Cad é mar (a)tá tú? Cad é ’deireann tú? Cad é ’d’úrt sé?

A Lughaidh,

quote:

Actually, writing "cad tá sa (t)seomra" is grammatically wrong

I fully agree, but those were the first two lessons of "Progress in Irish" that made me alert. There are bucketloads of "Cad tá...", "Cé tá..." there. Knowing that PII is in caighdeán oifigiúl I wondered if this is the new prescribed spelling. I am aware that "a" is not pronounced in those.

quote:

sa (t)seomra?

Why do you write with the brackets? Isn't Dún na nGall's form "sa tseomra"? :))) It is the same in Munster, pé sceul é.

Le meas

This way of spelling reflects the pronunciation in:

Céard tá sa seomra? /k’e:r tα: sə ∫u:mrə/

Céard dúirt sé? /k’e:r du:r ∫e:/


You can write these likewise as well:

Cé (a)tá sa siopa? /k’e: tα: sə ∫upə/

Cén chaoi (a) bhfuil tú? /k’e: xi: wuL tu:/


But it’s not applicable to 'Céard a deireanns tú?' /k’e:rd ə d’er’əNs tu:/ (and strictly speaking, to all other cases except for Céard+tá, céard+dúirt).

That’s how I see it.

quote:

Why do you write with the brackets? Isn't Dún na nGall's form "sa tseomra"? :))) It is the same in Munster, pé sceul é.

sa lenites the consonants b, c, g, m or p and prefixes t to initial s of a feminine noun. Seomra is a masculine noun... sa seomra

De Bhaldraithe writes:

cé tháinig..., cé bheadh ann..., cé dubhairt é, cibé ar bith cé fuair é..., céard dubhairt sé, té bhí ann
cé aige mbeadh..., go céard tá ort, go céard a chas..., go té bhí, go cé’n chaoi bhfuil tú, cé’n chaoi a gcuirfidh muid..., céard a bhí..., téard a dhéanfas mé...

The ‘a’ is mostly always written when pronounced, vv.
I suppose, you must look into the diachronic development of these particles. It’s not all too obvious, drúil íosta príosta!

(Message edited by Peter on March 22, 2006)

I myself always use:

Cad atá

Cad a deir

Cad a dúirt


As far a I'm aware, "sa tseomra" is perfectly valid.

Most dialects say:

an seomra
an tsráid
ar an seomra
ar an tsráid

While others give the masculine one a "t" in the dative case:

an seomra
an tsráid
ar an tseomra
ar an tsráid

>I fully agree, but those were the first two lessons >of "Progress in Irish" that made me alert.

There are plenty of books about Irish with mistakes in. Even learning books... ;-)

>There are bucketloads of "Cad tá...", "Cé tá..." there. >Knowing that PII is in caighdeán oifigiúl I wondered if >this is the new prescribed spelling.

It isn't and it's wrong. Look at New Irish Grammar... cé atá, pp 88, 118. But I may be wrong about adeir and adúirt, because I can’t find them under "abair" in Ó Dónaill’s dictionary.

quote:sa (t)seomra?
Why do you write with the brackets? Isn't Dún na nGall's form "sa tseomra"? :))) It is the same in Munster, pé sceul é.

In some dialects people prefix t- to all s+vowels after a simple preposition. In others, they don't, in others, they do it on feminine nouns, or on masculine nouns. In Standard Irish, t- is prefixed to feminine nouns beginning by s+ l, r, n and vowels after a single preposition + the article "an". In Donegal, it is prefixed to both feminine and masculine nouns. I'm not sure for Munster and Connemara rules.


sa lenites the consonants b, c, g, m or p and prefixes t to initial s of a feminine noun. Seomra is a masculine noun... sa seomra

This is the Standard Irish rule. However it isn't true in all dialects. Donegal: sa tslí, sa tsúil, sa tseomra, etc.

De Bhaldraithe writes:

cé tháinig..., cé bheadh ann..., cé dubhairt é, cibé ar bith cé fuair é..., céard dubhairt sé, té bhí ann
cé aige mbeadh..., go céard tá ort, go céard a chas..., go té bhí, go cé’n chaoi bhfuil tú, cé’n chaoi a gcuirfidh muid..., céard a bhí..., téard a dhéanfas mé...

De Bhaldraithe has a number of forms that aren't "correct" according to Standard Irish rules, there are many dialectal stuff and non-standard things (which are right anyway, but not Standard), because it has been done before the Standard Irish rules were fixed.

quote:

sa tseomra, sa seomra

The only dialect where you see "sa seomra" is Conamara. CO follows their feature. Historically it is wrong and is produced based on analogy with nominative case (an seomra - sa seomra, an tsráid - sa tsráid). In BOTH Munster and Ulster "sa tseomra" is the rule, and it is historically correct form. Everytime "s" is lenited after article "t" is appended. So if we say "an tsráid", "an tsagairt" we shall say "sa tseomra", as well as "sa tsráid".