Hello, my name is Shane from West Virginia in America, and I desire to help revive the traditional languages of my homeland, such as Appalachian, Cherokee, and Powhatan. I imagine a new Irish language (a "Recovered Irish") thoroughly reconstructed with 100% Irish word elements. For nativizations and calques, Recovered Irish would look to other Celtic languages for guidance, and then if no native example is extant, then to other nativizing languages, like High Norwegian and High Icelandic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Icelandic). Some words might be reconstructed from Proto-Celtic or Proto-Indo-European and given new Irish forms as if they had been naturally worn down through time from those proto-languages.

One thing I would not recommend is simplifying or "regularizing" any eccentric Irish conjugations, because that drains the color of a language. Recovered Irish would have a standard spelling-based pronunciation -- something like the Linguistics Institute of Ireland's standardized Lárchanúint ('central dialect'). Spelling would be totally phoneme-based, not etymologically-based. The buailte would be used. Maybe even palatization would be marked with a diacritic (like the 'under-comma' used in Latvian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language#Orthography) instead of by surrounding letters, so that there would be exactly one letter for each phoneme. The schwa sound, whether historically from /a/ or /e/ or as an epenthetic vowel, would be represented by a single distinctive letter (perhaps with an 'a' marked with a buailte, with a mark through the 'a' like the Danish letter 'oe', or with a dieresis).

This language would be Ireland’s official language, would become an official language of the EU, and would be taught to Irish-learners -- in place of the defunct Modern Irish. Even if the language failed to gain popular and official support at first, it could still serve as a language of fellowship among Irish language enthusiasts.

In addition to this island-wide official language, a standardized language would be made for each province. A Leinster language would be reconstructed based on records of the dialects there. The distinctive dialects within each provincial language (for example, Galway Irish versus Mayo Irish within the Connaucht language) would be recognized and honored in each respective provincial dictionary as valid variants. A phonemic orthography would be made for each provincial language (and their dialects) along the same principles as Recovered Irish. Six separate, thoroughly researched dictionaries would be published: one for Recovered Irish and one for each of the four provincial languages (plus a new standardized Ullans dictionary in co-operation with Ulster-Scots language enthusiasts), along with translations of key literature in each language (the New Testament, Irish epics, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, etc.). The provincial languages would be official in their respective provinces, along with Recovered Irish and English (and Ullans in Ulster...and in all of Ireland once reunited). Each provincial language would have official protection and support according to EU minority/regional language law.

Good luck to the Irish language!

Sincerely,
Shane

What is the point of this bicycle-invention excercise?

>>> key literature in each language (the New Testament, Irish epics, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, etc.)

!!!!!!!!!! Ok LotR, but why the "Harry Potter" ????????!!!!!!!!

Ok "Harry Potter" and "Chronicles of the Narnia" but why on earth "Lord of the Ring"?????????????????

"I imagine a new Irish language (a "Recovered Irish") thoroughly reconstructed with 100% Irish word elements."

There is no language having anywhere near 100% domestic words. English has about 50% and it seems to be doing fine all the same, so does Spanish with an enormous amount of Arabic borrowings.

"For nativizations and calques, Recovered Irish would look to other Celtic languages for guidance, and then if no native example is extant, then to other nativizing languages, like High Norwegian and High Icelandic"

Why would Scandinavian words be more appropriate than already existing words?

"One thing I would not recommend is simplifying or "regularizing" any eccentric Irish conjugations"

At least we agree on one thing.

"This language would be Ireland’s official language, would become an official language of the EU, and would be taught to Irish-learners -- in place of the defunct Modern Irish"

I got news for you. The 'defunct Modern Irish' is the official language of Ireland, it's an official language of the EU and it's taught to learners. Where's the beef here?

"A Leinster language would be reconstructed based on records of the dialects there."

Funny, given that South Leinster used 'Munster' dialects, North Leinsted spoke 'Ulster' dialects and the rest spoke 'Connact' dialects.

"along with translations of key literature in each language (the New Testament, Irish epics, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings, etc.)."

Ah, those three pillars of Western Civilization: The Bible, Harry Potter and LOTR... Besides, all of those are already translated into Irish, except for LOTR.

Shane, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but your suggestions make no sense. In what way would they be an improvement. Everything you have suggested already exists, except for an Irish translation of LOTR. So what would be gained be creating this artifical and unnatural language called 'Recovered Irish'?

quote:

all of those are already translated into Irish, except for LOTR

Agus tá aistriúchán Gaeilge de The Hobbit ar na bacáin anois díreach! :-) Nicholas Williams, a d'aistrigh Alice in Wonderland go Gaeilge (Eachtraí Eilíse i dTír na nIontas) atá ag obair air.

I'm trying to figure out what language Appalachian is.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

First off, I wrote the message because I have read reports that Irish, despite official support, is struggling to maintain its liveliness (though I've heard positive things about the Irish immersion school movement). I admit that as an American, I do not have personal experience in regard to witnessing the state of the Irish language. I do however, have a personal interest in the art of phonaesthetic composition, language-making, and language revival. So, I decided to blithely outline a scheme for making a new kind of vivacious Irish.

My list of "key literature" was an easy target :-). In my first draft, I planned to play it safe and just say "the New Testament and Irish epics", then I decided to shake things up a bit and include "The Lord of the Rings". Since J.R.R. Tolkien was named the "Author of the Century", I felt this reasonably qualified as "key literature" (I'm glad that "An Hobad" is coming out soon). Then I added "Harry Potter" since it is currently so popular -- though I am not (yet) a Pothead. It might have been better to say "classic and popular literature" instead of "key literature". I do feel it is vital that popular works are published in Irish.

How would Recovered Irish would be an improvement over Modern Irish? Well, I do feel that there is some inherent benefit in a language having a phonemic, one-letter-to-one-sound writing system, while ideally retaining the flavor of the previous orthographies as much as feasible (hence Recovered Irish's letter 'b' with a buailte = /v~w/ instead of the letter 'v' or 'w'). Recovered Irish would only be one step more 'unnatural' than Modern Irish, since Modern Irish has undergone 'unnatural' pruning and shaping from the 1957 spelling reform. Also, it would simply be nifty to have a 100% Irish language. I suggest looking at High Icelandic and High Norwegian not because of any historical relationship of these North Germanic languages with the Goidelic Celtic Irish language, but because those languages are filled with examples of how to calque words using native elements instead of foreignisms.

Thanks Jonas for the descripton of the Leinster dialects. Perhaps a regional language for each dialect or each Gaeltacht, instead of for each province, is in order. It seems to me that there is a danger of losing the living dialects in favor of a homogenized schoolteacher Irish. I envision the speech of each living dialect of Irish (and eventually reconstructed extinct dialects) having a writing system and dictionary that reflects the phonemes and vocabulary of that dialect. I suggest making each dialect of Modern Irish a language in its own right in the same way that Scottish Gaelic and Manx became languages out of Middle Irish.

I know what I'm going to say next contradicts what I posted about "Recovered Irish" becoming an "official" language of Ireland, but it seems to me that *compulsory* use of any language will eventually become unacceptable to people; really, I think Recovered Irish would be more of a language of Hibernophonophilic enthusiasts at first. I imagine it eventually *replacing* Modern Irish as the common Irish, at which point Modern Irish would become defunct in the same way that Old Irish and Middle Irish are 'de-funct': 'off-duty'. I didn't mean to imply that Modern Irish was currently defunct - I am glad Irish is alive.

Shane

I am sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. Unfortunately, we don't have to look too far from Irish to see the problems.

In the case of Cornish, there are three competing forms of Cornish. The Cornish revival was going quite ok untill a guy Ken George came up with a new standard. He might have thought he did the languag a service, but it proved disastrous. Much energy is now spent on attacking the other standards and defending one's own, energy that would be better used to further a common Cornish cause. I would hate to see Irish go down that road.

Jw99 said:
>I'm trying to figure out what language Appalachian is.

Waelp, the Appalatchin tongue, hit's the tradeeshnal langage o the foke o the Appalatchin Maontns. Hits kaandly laak th Scawts tongue, er the Ullans tongue, in regoard te hits relation te the Aenglish langage.

Here's a linguistics webpage written in the Appalachian language:

http://www.lowlands-l.net/appalachian.php

...and a Low Saxon folktale translated into West Virginia Appalachian (the page mistakenly says it's the Tennessee dialect of Appalachian):

http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=appalachian-wv

The John Sayles movie "Matewan" has Appalachian speech in it. The narrator is a friend of the family.

I spoke more of it when I was a little kid, for example, I used to say 'clift' instead of 'cliff'. I lost most of my Appalachian through school, though in my idiolect, 'center' and 'sinner' are still homophones in casual speech: /sInr/.
I hear the Appalachian language every day where I work. Yesterday, a fellow asked me about the hotdogs from the deli:

"De ye reckon aer iny caont?"

(= "Do you think they're any good?")

I hope this gives an idea of Appalachian.

Shane

what was the new standard based on ?

Knowing little about Cornish I would imagine that previous standards would be derived from texts in Cornish from the Middle Ages or any lingustic reports done with native speakers in the 18th ( or even 19th cent) and then built on.

I could even imagine the use of Breton or Welsh in order to arrive at a middle ground. Pity there is so much time wasted on in-fighting

Mar fhios daoibh: Tá scéalta Harry Potter ar fáil cheana féin i nGaeilge.

Harry Potter stories are already available in Irish.

-----------------------------

Whilst I do not wish to throw cold water over the original contributor's enthusiasm, as one who, until my move to France, used Irish on an everyday basis cannot help but feel that there is a certain arrogance at work in telling us benighted Gaeilgeoirí what we should and should not be doing with our language. The language will stand or fall depending on what those of us who speak it make of it.

Irish people in the past have failed to shake off the perceived badge of inferiority and defeat that the language seemed to betoken. Modern Ireland however is an entirely different place. There are many Gaelscoileanna (Irish language schools) where people seek to have their children enrolled and they (the schools) are eminently successful. They may never restore Irish as the predominant language in Ireland, but they are certainly playing a part in the preservation of the language as an means of everyday communication, and helping to save it from extinction. So, I do not find it helpful for people, of admittedly good intention, to come from outside the Irish/Ireland milieu and make suggestions that seem, in essence, to negative everything that is already being done to preserve the living language.

As to spelling, in Irish it is as regular and standardized as in any other language. It is certainly more logical than the spelling system in English - although there are valid historical reasons for maintaing the many seeming illogicalities English enshrines. The phonemic necessities of Irish, BTW are well served by the present spelling system - far more accurately and satisfactorily than English is by its system.

As to 'regularising' eccentric Irish conjugations, why not just use English or German, or even Hebrew instead. The perceived irregularities are the product of Irish language speakers going back over a period of more than two millenia. They are a substantial part of what makes the language what it is. To 'regularise' them is akin to bowdlerising the language and making it artificial and vapid. I think we are talking here of 'Eperantising'.

As to using Native rather than Foreign elements, which of the foreign elements do you suggest should go first: the ancient Latin and Greek, the Anglo-Saxon and then the Scandinavian - leaving the English (Middle and Modern) till last. Would that be acceptible? Or should we start on the English language first and remove foreign imports into that language before we attack Irish.

Oh Dear! I have been tempted into a reductio ad absurdam, but let's be realistic about this. A language is what its speakers make it. No one else! Academics and others may have ideas, but at the end of the day only those who use Irish (speak and otherwise utilise the language - wart-bedecked conjugations and all!) really have a say in the matter. But let's not go down the road of the Cornish revival. That would be quite disastrous.

Pangur_dubh, I admire your Irish. I would like to be fluent in Irish.

Reviewing what I posted, I do see that I had an invalidating and negating tone toward Modern Irish. My imagination of Recovered Irish replacing Modern Irish were arrogant and out of line. I also regret that the scheme came across as me telling the Irish what they should do, since I practice not "shoulding on" anybody, including myself. As a McHenry, I am of Irish ancestry, though I do not consider Ireland my homeland. I consider the Appalachians my homeland.

I am certainly *not* comparing the Irish and English languages. Also, I have not advocated "regularizing" Irish grammar - I agree that doing so makes the language mechanistic.

In fact, I do have an interest in a kind of "Recovered English". And I am not alone in this: William Morris and J.R.R. Tolkien both had a desire to make an entirely English language. Tolkien, who loved England and the English language, lamented the adoption of English as the "world language":

"[It is said] 1/8 of the world's population speaks 'English', and that is the biggest language group. If true, damn shame - say I. May the curse of Babel strike all their tongues till they can only say 'baa baa'. It would mean much the same. I think I shall have to refuse to speak anything but Old Mercian." (Letter 53)

For an example of Recovered English - instead of the English 'wine', which descended from Old English 'wiin', which was borrowed from Latin 'viinum', a new native word would be reconstructed as if it had descended naturally from Proto-Indoeuropean 'woinom':

Proto-Indoeuropean - woinom
Proto-Germanic - wainam
Recovered Old English - waan
Recovered Middle English - woan
Recovered English - woan

A grape would be a 'woanberry', based on the actual Old English word 'wiinberige'. I have devised two orthographies for this Recovered English: one runic and one roman, both with one-letter-to-one-phoneme. I have also adapted the roman orthography for use in writing the Appalachian language.

As far as Recovered Irish (or maybe "High Irish" sounds better), I imagine all foreign words - Latin, Greek, Norse, and English - would be replaced by Irish words.

For the forseeable future, this would be an enthusiast's language, rather than a national language, similar to the position of two unofficial standards - High Norwegian (Hoegnorsk) and National Norwegian (Riksmaal) - within Norway vis-a-vis the two official standards - New Norwegian (Nynorsk) and Dano-Norwegian (Bokmaal) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language). The Cornish might have something to learn from the Norwegians - who leave it up to each county and municipality to vote which of the Norwegian language standards is official in that locality - or they may even declare neutrality! Both Nynorsk and Bokmaal are official at the national level and Norway seems no worse for it.

Shane

Shane H,

*True insight comes from within*

I think you should ask yourself two questions:

What are languages?
and
Where are languages?

Sure and I think that the Appalachians are interesting too. Maybe since you are from there and you like the speech and here it a lot, you could come up with some sort of standardized spelling for it with a phenetic system and what have you. That might be a better suited project for yourself.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

so would this appalachin language (sheesh!) be related
to ebonics and such nonsense?

Riona, I think you are right. I've had my say in regard to the Irish language. I am working on a Traditional Appalachian literary standard and hope to eventually see it, or something like it, used among the Appalachian people, alongside English. Thanks to everyone for listening and good luck to the Irish language!

Shane

Shane, perhaps I came on with all guns firing, but the position of Irish is not as comfortable as I would wish. Anything that diverts away from the urgent task of protecting and stabilising its existence I see as unnecessary and possibly even detrimental to its continued existence as a living language. Living Irish cannot afford to have energies expended on academic exercises which would be more usefully spent on bolstering and eventually increasing the number of speakers. In this sense then, I see your proposal as a distraction from a far more pressing need. The interest and support of all those who wish the language well is a vital encouragement to those of us who earnestly wish to save it from the dustbin of history.

I hope you will appreciate my concerns for Irish and not take my reaction (granted, a kneejerk!) as a personal attack.

I really can't think of Appalachian as another language. It is a regional variant of English and not that difficult to understand

I agree that of course it is a regional variant of English, I mean you could sort of call it a dialect if you want but it's still definately English. I just mentioned that maybe Shane could make up his own phenetic system because it might make more sence for him to do that than to try and change Irish, I think we all have agreed that such an idea wasn't the best. But he could work on his dialect standardization spelling of his Appalachian dialect of English because he seems bent on doing something of the sort.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

I thought this was a joke at first … I must be missing something. "Defunct Modern Irish"?? How can you get a whole nation to start speaking some concocted jibberish, when so few of people already speak the real thing? I'm no expert, but I doubt most people think modernising the language is the solution. :-/

Especially when it is proposed by a foreigner with no knowledge of their language.

how would one communicate if all loan words were taken out? I mean how would you say Eucharist or Pope
same for the English how would I say Quesadilla using english only? foolish nonsense