OK, I need to find the time to come here more often; "round 1" of this thread was archived already. So let's continue where we left off...

First of all, thanks to everyone for participating. I've learned an awful lot from just this single thread. Go raibh maith agat!

A Lughaidh:

>> Why "ar an siopa"?
Good point. I guess I was thinking of "ar scoil" when I wrote it, but that's a special case. "go dtí an siopa" is what I think Connemarans say (my teachers mostly teach Connemara dialect). I've heard the "chuig" and "chun" are said elsewhere.

The "Chuaigh mé go siopa", though, is something I've never heard.

>> Dúirt sí go ndeachaigh sé ag ceannach...
Why is the "ag" there? For example, Ceacht 41 from Progress in Irish implies that the "ag" is left out.

>> ... le ghabháil ...
Ah, didn't know dul==ghabháil. I haven't seen "le" used that way, either. Further down the thread, Larry implies that "le" is used to imply "with the intention of"?

I'm still digesting the "Chuaigh mé a dhéanamh ruda" instead of "Chuaigh mé rud a dhéanamh", since I thought the latter was correct. We just did a lesson in class the other day where we learned word order for "I have to paint the house" in English to be "I have the house to paint" in Irish.

===

In my next post, I'll summarize where the actual conversation (using "téigh") went [no pun intended], and add my response.

Arsa Dearg:

An dtéann tú go dtí an siopa gach lá?

[Do you go to the store every day?]


Téim. Chuaigh mé go dtí an siopa Apple inné.

[Yes. I went to the Apple Store yesterday.]


Dúirt sí go ndeachaigh sé [ag] ceannach rud éigin an tseachtain seo caite.

[She said that he went to buy something last week.]


Arsa Maidhc_Ó_g:

An bhfuair tú na húlla a chuaigh tú a cheannach ? Ar mhaith leat iad?

[Did you get the apples you went to buy? Did you like them?]


Arsa Larry:

Sílim go ndeachaigh Dearg go dtí an siopa le/chun ríomhaire a cheannach cé gurbh fhéidir go ndeachaigh sí a cheannach úll.

[I think that Dearg went to the store (with the intention of??) bying a computer although it was possible she went to buy an apple.]

==============

Go díreach, a Larry! Ach amháin is fear mé. Chuaigh mé go dtí an siopa Apple a cheannach [software], ach is maith liom úlla ar aon chaoi.

[Exactly, Larry! Except I am a man. :-) I went to the Apple shop to buy software, but I like apples anyway.]

Anois, breithiúnas nua le "téigh":

A Lughaidh, cén fáth [an d?]teastíonn uait [dul/gabháil] ar aist go Tír Chonaill? Ar rug tú ann?

[Louie(?), why do you want to go back to Tyrconnel? Were you born there?]

"go dtí an siopa" is what I think Connemarans say (my teachers mostly teach Connemara dialect). I've heard the "chuig" and "chun" are said elsewhere.

They also use "ag" in place of "chuig".

"Chuaigh mé ag an siopa."

>> Dúirt sí go ndeachaigh sé ag ceannach...
>Why is the "ag" there? For example, Ceacht 41 from >Progress in Irish implies that the "ag" is left out.

People use ag in Connemara and Munster. In Donegal, we use "a" (leniting), which is the oldest way (this "a" is a simplified form of "do"= to).
In PII, the "ag" is left out? you mean that they've written "go ndeachaigh sé ceannach" ? It's wrong!

>> ... le ghabháil ...
>Ah, didn't know dul==ghabháil. I haven't seen "le" used >that way, either. Further down the thread, Larry >implies that "le" is used to imply "with the intention >of"?

Yeah. It think it's an Ulster thing, though. Not sure they use it in Connemara & Munster.

>I'm still digesting the "Chuaigh mé a dhéanamh ruda" >instead of "Chuaigh mé rud a dhéanamh", since I thought >the latter was correct.

It isn't...

>We just did a lesson in class the other day where we >learned word order for "I have to paint the house" in >English to be "I have the house to paint" in Irish.

Yeah, but that word order is wrong in the case of "verb of motion + other verb + object".
I have to paint the house = caithfidh mé an teach a phéinteáil
I went to paint the house = chuaigh mé a phéinteáil an toighe (Ulster) / Chuaigh mé ag péinteáil an tí (Connemara) / (Do) chuas ag péinteáil an tí (Munster)

A Dhearg, a chara

My sincere apologies :)

There is a woman in Dublin who uses the same nickname on IRC so I assumed that you, too, were female.

No offence, my friend ;)

A Larry,

No problem! I got a good laugh out of it. :-)

A Lughaidh,

Ah, "verb of motion". OK, so there's some sort of rule there. I can handle that!

Rachaigh mé ag foghlaim an leabhar. Níl mé dalta maith.

Anyone else wanna try using some form of "téigh" in a simple sentence?

C'mon you newbie lurkers! C'mon out and post a little. This is meant to be *easy*. :-)

Rachaigh mé go dti an bialann le haghaigh lón. (I will go to the restaurant for lunch)

An bhuil sé ceart?

Ok, here you are:

Bhí fúm trí lá saoire a thógáil agus dul ar cuairt chuig mo mhuintir atá ina cónaí i mbaile mór atá suite trí chéad míle go leith amach ó Mhosсó.

I had an intention of taking 3 days off and visiting my near&dear who live in a town that is situated 350 miles away from Moscow.

Dála an scéil, mara miste leat:

>>> Rachaigh mé ag foghlaim an leabhar. Níl mé dalta maith.

Rachaidh mé ag foghlaim an leabhair. Níl dalta maith ionam or: ní dalta maith mé.

FRC

Le meas, Peter

An-mhaith, a Mac Tíre.

An dtéitear lón "organic" ag an bialann seo?

[Does one go for organic lunch/food at this restaurant?] (That's probably not Irish grammar there)

A Peter,

GRMA for the correction. Cén tainm atá orthu an baile?

Ni théitear (téitear?). Is é Baja Fresh an bialann.

When I jumped in on this thread, I never thought I'd be trying to answer with the autonomous form. :)

Corrections appreciated - GRMA.

>>> Cén tainm atá orthu an baile?

Cén t-ainm atá ar a mbaile?

What is the name of their town? If I got you right.
Or:
Céard a thugtar ar a mbaile?
(lit. How is the town called?)

- Cén t-ainm atá ar a mbaile?
- Ivanovo atá air. Ciallaíonn sé cineál "John's" . Tá sé suite ó thuaidh ó Mhoscó.

It's called "Ivanovo". It means sort of "John's ". It's situated to the north of Moscow.

FRC

Le meas, Peter

Correction:

- Cén t-ainm atá ar a mbaile?
- Ivanovo atá air. Ciallaíonn sé cineál "John's" (village). Tá sé suite ó thuaidh ó Mhoscó.

It's called "Ivanovo". It means sort of "John's " (village). It's situated to the north of Moscow.

Cheers

A Dhearg, a chara,

I appreciate that this thread is basically about the use of the verb “téigh” but there are a few things I’d like to point out.

quote:

>> Dúirt sí go ndeachaigh sé ag ceannach...
Why is the "ag" there? For example, Ceacht 41 from Progress in Irish implies that the "ag" is left out.

I’ve looked at that particular lesson and, with the greatest respect, I think that you’re misinterpreting it. Máiréad’s lesson, in my opinion, deals with usage of the verbal noun with and without a direct object.

quote:

We just did a lesson in class the other day where we learned word order for "I have to paint the house" in English to be "I have the house to paint" in Irish.

Progress In Irish is a very good inexpensive handbook but it lacks an adequate explanation of the grammar.

quote:

An dtéitear lón "organic" ag an bialann seo?

… ag an mbialann seo or …ag an bhialann seo.
In general terms, when you use the definite article (an) with a preposition (ag, ar, as, chuig, dar, faoi, le, ó, roimh, thar, trí, um) it requires lenition or eclipsis of the noun. But there are exceptions and we run the risk of taking this thread beyond its original subject if we delve too deeply into that.

Le meas,

> When I jumped in on this thread, I never thought I'd be trying to answer with the autonomous form. :)

Great! That's exactly the point, a Mhac Tíre.

All the language books I've ever seen throw a jumble of verbs at you and then your job is to conjugate each verb in a single tense/mood. That's OK for showing patterns and rules for conjugating, but it's not at all how we think. It also makes for very bland conversations.

In any one conversation, we tend to stick to a small number of verbs (what you did/saw/heard, verbs associated with a hobby or pastime, etc.), but then conjugate them in many different ways.

--Did you go to the store?
--I didn't go to the store, but I will go tomorrow.
--I go whenever I can, because...
--I would've gone, but...
--I wouldn't go there since...
--He enjoys going there every day.
--Has he gone there lately?
--Didn't she go there all the time?
--Tomorrow, we can go together.
--One never goes on a Sunday.

etc., etc.

When you concentrate on a single verb, it's easier to move between tenses & moods because you don't have to simultaneously think of additional verbs and conjugate them at the same time. I've given up on many all-Irish threads here because they quickly involve many verbs and many conjugations, and it's just too time consuming to look them all up.

So I'm trying to keep this simple.

Maybe we should have a verb of the week.

Peter, GRMA for the corrections.

Larry,

Yes, I most definitely could be misinterpreting that lesson in PII. That was not one of the lessons we covered in class. As you say, the book by itself isn't terribly useful; you really need a teacher to expand on each chapter.

Also, as an adult student of Irish, I must say I've forgotten most of the grammatical terms even for English. Sure, I know what a noun, verb, pronoun, and preposition are, but when they start going into direct objects, predicates, etc., I quickly get lost. I should just bite the bullet and buy a small English grammar book as a refresher.

That's something that's really missing from Irish language books: an explanation of terms for adult students. Books that most Irish organizations in the US seem to use (Progress in Irish, Buntús Cainte) seem to be aimed at Irish schoolchildren who are simultaneously learning English grammar. So they gloss over definitions & terminology because they assume you already know it.

I agree with you 100% Dearg. You're certainly not the first adult student to "forget" what we learned at school regarding the terminology used in grammar. In fact, I don't think that I was ever taught what a direct object is at school and when I started learning Irish back in the late 60s I had to buy an English grammar textbook just to interpret the terms.

But don't be disheartened by that. There are quite a few inexpensive little guides that you can lay your hands on and, although I haven't checked, you can probably view similar guides online free of charge.

Your threads, such as this one, are a very good exercise for all of us.

---

Incidentally, a direct object typically refers to a person or thing directly affected by the action expressed by the verb. For example:

The boy smashed a window - a window is the direct object.
I saw Mary - Mary is the direct object.

A Dheirg, a chara,

I wholeheartedly agree with you that it's great! Thanks for taking the initiative with the Verb of the Week.

So, what's next? Or should we have the Verb of the Fortnight instead? :)

A direct object is a specific verbal expansion which is formally characterized by the fact that it is directly linked to the verb.
Direct objects can be found in French, English or Irish.
There are no direct objects in Latin, German or Russian because any expansion is linked to the verb by (at least) a case.