mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (March-April) » Archive through March 14, 2006 » Refused Irish name change on passport « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ceolmhar
Member
Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 09:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I was refused a name change because I didn't have proof that I'd been using the name for the past 2 years. I said "I shouldn't need proof, this is my name in Irish." Response: "Well ye need to be using it every day"
When I mentioned the Official Languages Act 2002, I was told "Dunno nuthin bou dat". So according to them the Irish language doesn't exist.

I also told them: "Irish is the first offical language of this country according to the Irish constitution. Why are you denying me the right to use my official Irish name?" Response "You'll have to change it with yer bank or something and come back to us." - All very vague responses.

So how the hell am I meant to change my name? My bank won't change it because I also need proof. Forget about Deed Pole because I have a right to use my Irish name according to Irish law. Catch 22 situation to be honest.

I refuse to go throught the whole rigmarole of changing electricity and bank bills to Irish for 2 years - Absolute bullshit. I DO have a right to use my offical Irish name, don't I?

This sucks :( What should I do?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 66
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chara, that is a bit obnoxious.

Its not like you're just commingup with a random name that you suddenly want to use, you're wanting to use your own name as it would be is Gaeilge, that shouldn't be an impossible desire. Even more concerning than the unfairness of that is the fact that people in authority don't seem to think the Languages Act matters. For example, I remember Fear _nambrog mentioned in another thread that he'd written a letter to someone official (I don't recall who it was) in Irish. They replied ... in English. That is _NOT what they're supposed to do. As irritating as that whole may be for Fear_nambrog, and as much as it wasn't right of them to do that to him, this has worse implications.

Lets imagine that some older guy who lives on Inis Meain and has limited English, has to write to the government about something so of course he writes it in Irish. All well and right, until he gets a reply to his letter, opens it, and its in English, with lots of words that are hard for native English speakers to figure out because of their official flavor, much less for our man in this example. so he goes down the road and has his friend help him figure it out. But that just isn't right, I mean, maybe this matter was not something, for whatever reason, other people were supposed to have common knowledge of. This is really wrong for our man because he is not being treated fairly and now there is a law that says he must be but noone follows it. Just something for us all to think about.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 155
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Forget about Deed Pole because I have a right to use my Irish name according to Irish law.



I'm not a lawyer but I think you're basing your grievance on a misconception. Of course you have a "right" to use the name you were given at birth. You have a "right" to use a name which has been changed "officially" by marriage or another legal process.

I claim no expert knowledge of your Constitution or your Government but you're asking to have the name changed on your passport, which is a legal document, without going through due process based on your "right" to do so. I don't know if the Language Act contains any provision granting you that right but I suspect that it does not.

Please don't misunderstand me. I empathise with your position but I think you need to base your grievance on something other than a perceived "right"

Larry Ackerman

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 07:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceolmhar: You should really contact the Language Commissioner (www.coimisineir.ie) and ask to have your rights explained to you. If you have indeed been denied something you are entitled to, the Commissioner's office will follow up and set it right.

On a related note, I think the situation with people's names in Ireland is totally crazy. I mean, isn't it a fact of life that some names have two versions? And that people sometimes want to use them both, or switch from one to the other at some point in life? Public administration in Ireland doesn't seem to recognize that. This type of change shouldn't be treated by the authorities as a full-on name change, because it isn't one.

And then you have the same problem with place names, people's addresses, and so on. But, not to be totally pessimistic, I think that these attitudes are beginning to change for the better now, on account of the new language law and EU status and all that.

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1056
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I've been using my Gaeilge name for a while now as my "name". I never use my English language name anymore, never write it and never say it. However I do acknowledge it -- I do accept that it's the name I was born with, that it's the name on my birthcert, and that it's the name by which I was known for eighteen years.

Other than that though, my name is my Gaeilge name now. Is it a name change? I don't know... you could say I'm just using a different form of my name, or that it's a fully-fledged name change -- it's more a matter of opinion and interpretation than actual fact.

If I'm able to get a passport with my Gaeilge name on it, then that's well and good. But I'm actually considering getting a deed pole to "make if official" just exactly what my name is. I'm not doing the half-assed approach of using both names interchangably in different contexts -- I'm known by my Gaeilge name now FULLSTOP.

Things start to get a bit hairy when you loosen the requirements on names. For instance:

William Gates

Over here, he could easily get a passport saying:

Bill Gates

What's the implication here? This implies that "William" and "Bill" have some sort of association, i.e. that they are different forms of the same name.

But... who's to say what are other forms of a name? What if he filled out the form:

Liam Gates

Who's to say if "Liam" is another form of "William"?

Things get extra hairy when you switch language. Take:

Hughes:
Mac Aoidh
Mac Aodha

Who's to say which is a legitimate form of the name?

To clarify all this, I want to just stroll into the four-courts and say:

I want to be known as "Seán Ó Ceallaigh" from now on, which is the original Irish language form of my name prior to its anglicisation. I shall no longer go by the English language form of my name, "John Kelly"; however I do acknowledge that references by this name may indeed refer to me, as I held this name for eighteen years.

So I can either:

A)
1) Rattle a few cages at the language comission.
2) Get my Irish language name on my passport.

or:

B)
1) Get a deed pole, making it abundantly clear what my name is.
2) Get my Irish language name on my passport.

One other thing, if I go to a country like Germany (where one can't change their name), then the deed pole would also show my clear intention to abandon usage of my "old name" and the adoption of usage of my "new name".

I think I'll also get them to put my birthcert name under the "observations" section, there's no point denying that I went by a different name for eighteen years. Also it may come in handy at some stage, just in case I need to proof that I was "John Kelly" at some stage.

---
And yes, "John Kelly" is a pseudonym!

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:21 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Fhir na mbróg,

Maith thú! It is all fine what you said and whole-heartedly support you. Especially considering the strange habit of "translating" (in essence faking) the names in Ireland.

In my opinion Taidhg is Taidhg, and Timothy is Timothy - those are simply different names. Even "straightforward" cases like John=Seán are not so on a closer inspection. As I am aware, there are 2 different names i nGaelainn: Eoin and Seán, both of which are translated "John". But those are 2 different names although of the same origin! So why people with 2 not-alike names should have the same name i mBeurla???

Le meas

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"is Gaeilge"

as Gaeilge or i nGaeilge /i nGaeilg etc

"Fear _nambrog mentioned in another thread that he'd written a letter to someone official (I don't recall who it was) in Irish. They replied ... in English"

I wrote to Fine Gael in irish about their little show coming up, and got the reply in English. You wont get a reply in Irish, and thats it.

So bad is it, I recall an articple by a girl, a Nic Phaidin, and from banks to gov, it comes back as 'Thadin' without the Nic. It just shows that many of the users of English over generalise it, even to the degree of been incorrect, so anal are they. Similar: 'left' been pronounced as 'lefth' on a Dublin Bus recently.

So bad is it, that my English name has been sent back to me changed to a more suitable one, just because it si rare. I was even told (to my face) once, that my name did not exist and in front of me, I was put down with an alternative name.

A friend of mine (born in NY) but of irish parents and having spend most of his life here, wants his irish passport in irish, but is considered, technically, an alien, so things can even be worse for some

(Message edited by admin on May 19, 2006)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 385
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>I want to be known as "Seán Ó Ceallaigh" from now on, which is the original Irish language form of my name prior to its anglicisation.

But isn't "Seán" already an irishization of the (French) name "Jean", the original Irish equivalent being "Eoin"...?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 04:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think the first thing that you should do is from now on ONLY use your Irish name and then in two years you will have all the proof you need.
I was moving from Ireland to the US 3 years ago and a lawyer asked me if I would consider changing my name to English so people in the US would be able to understand it and pronounce it. I said "Not a chance" and anyway I wouldn’t have been able to change it because I had no proof that I used my English name.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 05:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

[quote]I was moving from Ireland to the US 3 years ago and a lawyer asked me if I would consider changing my name to English so people in the US would be able to understand it and pronounce it. I said "Not a chance" [/quote]

I am all for the revival of the Irish language, but the US is not an Irish-speaking country, haven't you noticed? If you felt the way you did, why didn't you just stay in Ireland? Or are you one of the many scroungers to arrive in the US who wants whatever material benefits the country has to offer without any integration whatsoever?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I am all for the revival of the Irish language, but the US is not an Irish-speaking country, haven't you noticed? If you felt the way you did, why didn't you just stay in Ireland? Or are you one of the many scroungers to arrive in the US who wants whatever material benefits the country has to offer without any integration whatsoever?

First of all, that was a very stupid paragraph.

There are countless reasons why one would choose to live in the USA, rather than in Ireland. Maybe she likes hotdogs? Similarly there are countless reasons why one would like to live in Iraq, rather than in the USA.

You sound as misguided as that chap in American History X. You don't know why and under what circumstances Elaine went to America, so don't speculate -- it just makes you look stupid.

"Integration"? Isn't it just great when you throw out generalised terms which are so vague, that you can come up with another defense off-the-cuf mid-debate? Maybe if you went to another country you'd realise that America isn't everything that George Bush portrays it as. We give hard cash in Ireland, not food stamps.

Last of all: What's in a name? Every person has a different answer to that question, which is why people shouldn't just pop their head up on a forum and write a stupid paragraph in the style of American History X. If I went to Japan, I wouldn't adopt a Japanese name. If I went to the USA, I wouldn't adopt a USA name. Maybe you would, and that's your own perogative. When it comes to names, one size certainly doesn't fit all.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mac Tíre (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 06:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

Or are you one of the many scroungers to arrive in the US who wants whatever material benefits the country has to offer without any integration whatsoever?



I have had the honor to study, albeit briefly, Irish with Elaine Ni Bhraonáin and can tell you that she is the absolute opposite to the "many scroungers" mentioned in the posting above.

Furthermore, I work with dozens of folks from all over the world and many of them have names unique to their home countries. They've also become quite integrated in American society and it would be absurd to think that any of them would change their names!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1059
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 07:11 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't mind transliteration. If I was living in Thailand and my name was Séamas, I'd use Thai symbols which represent the sound of "Séamas" close enough.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aindréas
Member
Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 46
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 07:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I don't know much about Irish law, but to me it seems, for example, changing your name from Adam to Ádhamh doesn't have much to do with language rights. It's simply changing your name. Like if you change your name from Adam to Charles … would you call yourself differently while speaking Irish, than while speaking English? It doesn't make much sense to me. :-/

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 674
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"would you call yourself differently while speaking Irish, than while speaking English?"

I do, and so do a number of people I know. In fact, I use the Irish form of my mother's maiden name with the Irish form of my first name (that is my Irish connection...my English last name is Italian in origin)

Likewise, when I took French I was Antoine in class and to those with whom I spoke the language

In addition, I use Antaine very frequently, even when I'm not speaking Irish. All my government records use my birth name, Anthony, and at work.

So much so, I debated having my name (first and last) legally changed to the Irish forms, but decided that wouldn't be right to do to my father.

Oh, and I live and have lived my whole life in the US...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aindréas
Member
Username: Aindréas

Post Number: 47
Registered: 09-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 09:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well, there's certainly changing names for the sake of phonetics. When I lived in Japan I never told people my name was Andrew. If you ask me what's your name? I'm going to reply Andrew. However, ask me anata no namae wa nandesu ka? and I'll reply An-do-ryu, without thinking about it. It sounds equally appalling to my ears to say me llamo Andrew, Andrew is ainm dom, or mia nomo estas Andrew, so I agree with you. I like to substitute Andrés, Aindréas, and Andreo.

But I was asking that, because if Ceolmhar does adopt an Irish name, and uses it while speaking English, Irish (his profile indicates he does not speak Irish well), or whatever language, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with language rights. He's just changing his name. I realize I was unclear, as my last sentence made it seemed like the confusion stemmed from him calling himself differently according to language …

Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Riona
Member
Username: Riona

Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 10:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

AS GAEILGE! I'll never spell it wrong again, I hate how I always make foolish mistakes. Hopefully I can learn more then.

My name won't even work in Irish so the all of you are fortunate to have names that do. If I take my name and try to make the spelling Irish it turns into a word that means something else, not a name at all and not a happy something else at any rate. So here I have Riona as my name because it has a meaning similar to my name. So if I ever could go to the Gaeltacht and convince someone to talk to me AS GAEILGE, I'd just have to call myself by Riona.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 04:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Wow, you guys are all getting real worked up about this :-)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 06:15 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"AS GAEILGE"

Now, come on, is language like a progessive jpeg encoding -you can just approximate it till you get it right? Basics people!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Róman
Member
Username: Róman

Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 08:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,

Do chreidinn i gcónaí go "as Gaeilge" was invented for learners to keep things simple, wasn't it? More usual expression is "i nGaeilge/ i nGaeilg/ i nGaelainn/i nGaeilinn/i nGaeilc/" (from left side - Conamara, Maigh Eo, Ciarraí/Múscraí, An Rinn, Dún na nGall/Lú)

Le meas

p.s Conas a chuirim Gaelainn ar "as far as I know"?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 09:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An nath atá agamsa ar "as far as I know" ná "chomh fada le m'eolas".

I don't know if "as Gaeilge" (as opposed to "i nGaeilge") was invented or whether it emerged naturally but I like it because there is a nice metaphor in it. If you speak "from Irish" (as opposed to "in Irish"), it's as if you are imagining the language to be some kind of resource, a well of something, from which you can pull up things to say. It conjures up the idea that a language is more than just a neutral code to express thoughts: it's the very source of the thoughts.

That's the metaphor I see it, anyway. There might be a more prosaic explanation but I don't want to hear it :-)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fiacc (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 09:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"chomh fada le m'eolas";

Is féidir a rá 'go bhfios dom' freisin, go bhfios dom.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 49
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 10:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is féidir, chomh fada le m'eolas.

;-)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 1085
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agus "ar feadh gur feasach mé".

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 01:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Well not, given the raft of issue facing irish, the as/i dedebate is not *that* important, so I dont want to be accused of been too focussed on it; nor using the genitive for the null will not mess up the cases if it is used in one place only; I was just flagging 'is Gaeilge' for Riona as it was used repeatedly, thats all



©Daltaí na Gaeilge