While doing some reading, I came across someone's opinion, that the Gaeltacht boundaries should be removed for the sake of the Irish language. From what I understand, people are not as afraid if Irish will survive, as if the Gaeltacht will survive. Now as I thought about this it seemed to be not such a bad idea …? But I am honestly in no place to say if this would be a good idea, so I'm curious for educated opinions! =) And how is each Gaeltacht doing now? Is Irish still heard out and about more than English? How much cause for concern is there?

P.S. I don't speak Irish!

There are those (not me) who would argue that if it dies out in the gaeltacht, the only place it is a strong(er) first language, then it is dead in the only sense that matters. To some, second-language status among gaelscoil students does not count for being a 'living language.'

An argument can be made that dissolving the gaeltacht might be just the kick in the butt it would take to get the public riled and breathe new life into the movement.

It'd be a risky move, however, as chances are it would not work, would undo what good has managed to be done with the gaeltachts, and there'd be no going back.

so

i'd say keep the gaeltachts as-is, but the future of the language lies elsewhere...

There are those (not me) who would argue that if it dies out in the gaeltacht, the only place it is a strong(er) first language, then it is dead in the only sense that matters. To some, second-language status among gaelscoil students does not count for being a 'living language.'

The Irish spoken by learners isn't as rich and good and right as the Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht.

This is an interesting point. The Irish government is able to spend a little bit of money maintaining the Gaeltacht and it looks like they are trying their best for the country's 1st official language. The Gaeltacht should be maintained if possible, but the focus should have always been on extending the Gaeltacht and ultimately bringing up a whole generation of Irish children with fluent Irish. As such the Gaeltacht is just tokenistic. The real role of the Gaeltacht is not to provide a place to practice a bit of conversational Irish, but as a base to re-gaelicize the rest of the country, via fluent native speakers being sent out to the rest of the country. There is little point in trying to ensure the survival of Irish in the Connemara as such - it will eventually succumb to English if the policy is not to re-gaelicize the country. Essentially, every school in counties Galway, Donegal and Kerry should be converted into gaelscoileanna, and English should be deleted from the curriculum in those areas. All school teachers in those areas should be native Irish speakers. When you have all children leaving school in those areas with near-native Irish, you can proceed to converting the National University in Galway to an Irish-only university etc. The idea should be to extend the Gaeltacht - not preserve it as a museum piece.

Can I add, that when all children in Galway Donegal and Kerry have been leaving school fluent in Irish for a couple of decades, the next step is to convert the government in all three counties into Irish only administrations. Once most people in their 20s and 30s *can* understand Irish fluently - regardless of whether it is their chosen main vehicle of communication - the council, the police, the electricity, gas, water etc - can all start sending letters and answering the phone and dealing with the public in Irish only. There has been too much emphasis on whether people actually speak the Irish they have. Really speaking, as long as people have Irish, the government should start dealing with them in Irish, and take no notice of what their preferred language is at home. This way a whole arena of life - public administration - would be reserved for Irish in 3 whole counties, and these would be the basis for a later spread of Irish across the other counties too.

Really interesting thread. Irish should be promoted everywhare in Ireland, like the all of you say. I don't think though that people should do away with Gaeltacht areas though because, as said, if it fails to help and just causes trouble there'd be no way to go back. That scares me very much. I think L is right, as clever as someone can be at learning a language, and as fantastic as that is, it just isn't the same as someone who natively speaks it. I'd never think to say that even if I was very clever and learned fluent Gaeilge (someday I hope) that I'd measure up in any way to someone who grew up speaking it all the time on Inis Meain.
Beir bua agus beannacht

Tá an tóin ag titim as an nGaeltacht mar gheall ar mhuintir eile na hÉireann a bheith réidh i gcónaí le léacht Bhéarla a thabhairt ar an méid ar cheart a dhéanamh anseo, ansiúd agus i ngach aon bhall, agus is iondúil nach mbíonn oiread is focal amháin Gaeilge meascaithe trína gcuid léachtóireacht Béarla acu.

Dá mbeadh muintir na léachtóireachta sásta cúpla focal bacach Gaeilge a roinnt linn thall is abhus, bheimis slán. Thiocfadh an Ghaeilg tríd. Thabharfaí misneach i mball éigin.

Tá na mílte sásta eolas a roinnt linn i mbloghanna Béarla. Déanfar tuilleadh Béarlóireacht anseo ar 'shlánú na Gaeilge': http://www.finegael.ie//downloads/IrishinThe21stC.pdf
. Ní thugaim mórán airde orthu.

Is fearr Gaeilg bhriste .....

Seosamh, I don't know who you're responding to, but you may have noticed I wrote I don't speak Irish, so I don't understand what you said. It's fine if you post in Irish, but I'm very curious of what others have to say, and unfortunately I can't understand Irish posts.

My quick gloss:

"The Gaeltacht is falling apart because of Irish people in general reserving the right to use only English everywhere; even here on this forum and not even use a word of Irish.

"As long as the chatterers are happy with a bit of crampled Irish here and there, it will be curtains for Irish and we will see its end.

"Lots are satisfied to blog in English. Will make more englihs speakers here the ‘saviours of irish’ [Fine Gael] Don’t rate them

Robert's gloss misses the point a couple of times:

quote:

"The Gaeltacht is falling apart because of Irish people in general reserving the right to use only English everywhere

Tá an tóin ag titim as an nGaeltacht mar gheall ar mhuintir eile na hÉireann a bheith réidh i gcónaí le léacht Bhéarla a thabhairt ar an méid ar cheart a dhéanamh anseo, ansiúd agus i ngach aon bhall

= because the people of Ireland are always ready to lecture in English on what should be done...

quote:

As long as the chatterers are happy with a bit of crampled Irish here and there

Dá mbeadh muintir na léachtóireachta sásta cúpla focal bacach Gaeilge a roinnt linn thall is abhus, bheimis slán. Thiocfadh an Ghaeilg tríd.

= If the people who do the lecturing were willing to grant us a few words in limping Irish here and there, we'd be okay. Irish would come through.

the simialrities in the constructions for lectur(er) and 'to reserve' made me worry some more idomatic use was been used I could not get, so I fluffed it a bit, afraid the writers knowledge might throw me

Tá an Rialtas seo nós na Rialtais go léir ó fuair muid ár saoirse amach ag tabhairt an chluais bhodhar don Ghaeilge.Níl in san nGaeilge ach mion-tionsclíocht le haghaidh dall na mullóg a chur ar dhaoine.Tá siad ag caitheamh béagán airgid ar an teanga le haghaidh béil na ndaoine a dhúnadh agus a chur siar ina mbéil gur "maith leo" an teanga.Tá na ceannairí atá ag rith na n-eagrasaí atá ag déighleáil leis an teanga as an nGalltacht agus ní labharíonn siad an Ghaeilge de ghnáth.Is í an Ghaeilge a ndara teanga agus níl ort ach éisteacht leo ag caint le fáil amach, más Gaeilgeoirí líofa/dúchais iad.Tá fhios agam seo mar bhí agallamh agam le gairid ag Foras na Gaeilge agus an dream a chuir agallamh orm ní raibh Gaeilge líofa acu ach bhí "Gaeilge na leabhar acu" Book Irish mar a thugtar air.Ní bhfuair mé an post ach níl aiféala orm mar bhí siad mar choimhthíocha dom.Ní raibh Gaeilge bhlasta líofa acu ach ar nós Gearmánais a labhair siad teanga na tíre.

"The Irish spoken by learners isn't as rich and good and right as the Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht."

It is different from the Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht. In the US we have been going 'round this argument for quite some time. I think gaelscoil Irish can be considered Ireland's 'Ebonics' for the sake of argument.

The thing is, that if the situation continues as it has been (and it seems to be) there will soon come a time when it is the only Irish left in Ireland.

I for one and not fluent enough yet to post extensively in Irish. However, fluency is one of my goals. And, if and when I have children - regardless of whether I live in Ireland or the US - I intend to never speak a word of english to them from the day they're born until the day I die. They will have little trouble picking up english from tv, school, friends and other relatives.

With this situation, they will be grow up bilingual (although I do intend to help them learn to read in english before school and help them with their english language homework once they're in school...but during their most formative language years all they'll hear from me is Gaeilge).

I think it's swell that people can just write in Irish or English. I wish I could but I suppose that will have to wait. Unfortunately I haven't got the time to try and figure out (only vaguely with my lack of knowledge, and with only Focloir Poca, which isn't the best I know) most of the Irish posts, but just reading them I figure is probably benificial even if I don't know what they say. If someone writes my name in an Irish message, I then sit myself down and try as hard as I can to figure it out. I don't always get too close to the exact meaning but sometimes I can figure out the main idea.

Sorry that my sentences always seem to run on forever without breaks in them such as periods.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

I agree with you, Mickrua. And I don't think that the Rialtas will don anything for Irish, because most people are lazy. It's easier for them to speak English. It's easier not to do anything efficient.

agus an dream a chuir agallamh orm ní raibh Gaeilge líofa acu ach bhí "Gaeilge na leabhar acu" Book Irish mar a thugtar air.

That's just why I seldom write in Standard Irish. It is book Irish! That's what I would answer to those who reproach me to write in dialectal Irish.

I really like this thread because it hits at the core of so many issues facing the Irish language.

I am not Irish, I am just a person who is really intersted in the the Irish language. It is funny to me that as I learn more and more about its history, the present seems to be the most dangerous time for this language. Historically speaking, the language has been under attack for many centuries and it has managed to survive this far. So it if very strange to think that its greatest danger now comes from the inside by its own people.

Should the boudries of the Gaeltachts be taken down...absolutely! The boundries need to be taken down because we no longer live in a time where we need to regionally seperate the language for its survival. I am happy to say that it survived. Now let it grow out into the future.

Should the boundries of the Gaeltachts be redrawn...absolutely! The boundries need to be redrawn, but this time they need to circle all of Ireland.

If you ask me, it is not the Gaeltachts that are failing...it's the other 90% of Ireland! Why should a couple of small areas have to do all the hard work while the rest of the country relishes in their bounty?

Now I am not trying to point fingers because I do not blame English speaking Irish for not wanting to learn the language. No one wants a foreign language forced on them. And that is exactly what Irish is to these people...it is as strange to them as Spanish, Chinese, or Russian is to them. You can spin the politics and history any way you want...it doesn't change the fact that unless Ireland as a whole accepts the language as its first language and uses it as its first language we are going to go in circles.

Also, to think that fluent Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht would go out and spread the language was a bad call because people adapt to their surrounds not the other way around...

Normally, I do not get so worked up about these things...but it really upsets me when people say there is a problem that will get better when "they" do something...if it is problem worth talking about...then it's a problem "we" need to fix. That is the only way a problem ever goes away. When "we" stop waiting for "them" and take care of it.

a rhiona, nach bhfaca me teachtairect i ngaoiluinne o uaitse roimis seo. cann ina thaobh mar sin go gcuirfir tu do chuid teachtairect i mbeurla anois. ba cheart duit do dhiceall a dheanamh fos.

Sure and I should have known someone would write me a note to translate after that. I'm in the middle of it at present but I have to leave and can't finish until later.
beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

a rhiona

What is this? lenited "r"? lol

quote:

ngaoiluinne

what about "caol le caol, leathan le leathan" rule? Normal spelling should be "Gaelainn" btw

quote:

cann ina thaobh

intersting but plainly wrong. It should be "cad ina thaobh", or "cad 'na thaobh"
and where are all the fadas?

You'd try harder a Bhreacbain!

Bhí mé ag smaoineamh ar Adamstown, bruachbhaile nua ar imeall Áth Cliath. An féidir linn bruachbhaile Gaelach a bhunú? Má raibh suim ag 5000 as 10000000+ i mBAC, b'fhéidir go mbeimid in ann "Gaeltacht" nua a bhunú ...

Thinking about Adamstown, the new suburb being built on the outskirts of Dublin, could we build an Irish-speaking version? If 5000 people were interested ?

Scríobh Róman:

quote:

...intersting but plainly wrong. It should be...

Ní dóigh liom gur iarr Breacban ort a chuid Gaeilge a cheartú. Ní fhaca mé aon "FRC" riamh ar na teachtaireachtaí a chuireann sé chugainn. Scríobhann sé i nGaeilge, agus tuigim gan dua é; sin é an rud is tábhachtaí. Má tá níos mó le rá agat ar an ábhar seo, ba bhreá liom é a léamh, i nGaeilge.

A Dhennis,

If the post is addressed to the learner who now desperately tries to find non-existant words to no avail in the dictionary - I don't think I need "FRC" to intervene. There is fundamental difference between post addressed to a proficient user and a complete beginner as Riona is.

Le meas

Dúirt mé leat gur mhaith liom cloisteáil uait i nGaeilge. Scríobh tú ar ais i mBéarla. Cén fáth? Má tá tú in ann na rudaí a scríobhann daoine eile i nGaeilge a cheartú, cén fáth nach bhfuil tú sásta scríobh chugainn sa teanga chéanna? Do fhreagra, le do thoil, i nGaeilge!

While I intend know offence (even though it is unavoidable), Breacban's Irish is a right dog's dinner. He seems to just skim over words thinking "well it's close enough".

Ríona is a very enthusiastic learner of Irish, and she comes across as intelligent, intellectual and as having good attention to detail. It is therefore unfortunate that she should have to sit with a dictionary sifting through Irish littered with mistakes which (and I mean this quite literally) a six year old wouldn't make. One hour of learning Irish should tell you that "ní" is the negative, not "nach".

While I don't agree entirely with Rómán's demeanour and his approach to the predicament, I do agree that Ríona should be made aware that not everything thing she sees here is "Grade A" Irish, and Breacban's posts are a prime example. Furthermore still, a lot of the Irish material on the web isn't up to scratch. Even Daltaí has some poems on the site which are littered with grammatical mistakes -- and I'm not talking mistakes of the calibre "who Vs whom", but of the calibre "I took Vs I taked", basic stuff.

quote:

Ríona should be made aware that not everything thing she sees here is "Grade A" Irish

Is féidir é sin a rá gan mhagadh faoi Ghaeilge duine eile, mar a rinne Róman. An rud a chuireanns olc orm, an-olc déanta na fírinne, ná beachtaíocht a chloisteáil ó dhuine nach scríobhann i nGaeilge é féin.

>>> Is féidir é sin a rá gan mhagadh faoi Ghaeilge duine eile, mar a rinne Róman. An rud a chuireanns olc orm, an-olc déanta na fírinne, ná beachtaíocht a chloisteáil ó dhuine nach scríobhann i nGaeilge é féin.

Tagaim leat ar fad, bhí an t-iompar sin glan as alt go deimhin.

>>> It is therefore unfortunate that she should have to sit with a dictionary sifting through Irish littered with mistakes which ....
Agus:
>>> I don't think I need "FRC" to intervene. There is fundamental difference between post addressed to a proficient user and a complete beginner as Riona is. ...

Céard faoin duine bocht eile a rinne an iarracht mar a gcéanna lena fhoclóir seisean? Ba cheart a fhágáil idir Breacban agus Ríona, measaim. Cén chaoi a bhféadfadh Ríona, nó aon fhoghlaimeoir eile sa timpeall, gabháil i mbun a meanman agus breacadh i nGaeilg nuair atá beach éigin ar guardal le tabhairt fúithi mar a tugadh faoi Breacban?

Dá mbeifí leis an scéal a mhaolú do Ríona, ba cheart leideadh gairid GAEILGE a scríobh chuig Breacban, sin, nó a leithéid - i nGAEILG - a scríobh chuig Ríona lena cur ar a faichill i dtaca le litriú an tsnáithe.

A chairde, ionsaithe cruinnis a mhill an Ghaeilg sa tír seo le dhá ghlúin, creidim, ach is measa arís gaisneas a bhaint as an mBéarla san obair sin. Ba cheart a bheith níos scaoilte leis an bhfoghlaimeoir (ní hionann is an té a shaothraíonn a chuid as an nGaeilg).

There's the paradox for you though.

How can you express yourself meaningfully if you have to worry about everybody's reaction, worrying if they'll take offence?

Hypothetical Situation:
Let's say you're at some sort of seminar. Someone leaves their book in the room, and the host say "Whose is this?". You answer, "the blond girl that was sitting there", or "the Scottish man that was sitting there".
In a predominantly white region, how many people do you think would say: "the black man that was sitting there". I live in Dublin, in Ireland, and the ratio of white people to black people is (taking a guess) about 200:1. That is to say that for each black person you encounter, you'll encounter 199 more white people. In the context of the seminar I gave above, it would be quite efficient to say "the black man", as it would be quite clear to whom you were referring, as it is a very distinguishing characteristic. Some people refrain however from doing that where I'm from... why? Because they're afraid of the reaction, in particular, that offence would be taken. Others however take a different approach; they say what they want to say, and if people take offence, then let them rot in their ignorance.

Now... when I say that someone's written Irish is deplorable, it's not intended as a personal attack or ridicule -- it's just a statement of what I hold to be true. Some arrogant people (and there's a few on this board) would immediately come out all guns blazing if I said so, but let them, they're ignorant people and they won't get anywhere in life.

So to sum up: Breacban, while I have no intent to ridicule, humiliate or offend you, I am plainly stating that I think your written Irish is deplorable. If you choose to take that as an offence, then go right ahead, but don't expect me to even try defend my position, because I don't care. If however you take it as constructive criticism, maybe you'll work on it and improve. Then again you may just continue on writing the way you usually do, in which case I'll politely inform learners that they're wasting their time sitting down reading your posts with a dictionary.

Rois mhór Béarla eile, faraor. :-( Tuigeann Breacban Gaeilge. Tá Gaeilge agat, a FnamB. Táim cinnte go mbeadh do theachtaireacht níos gonta i nGaeilge, agus níos éifeachtaí.

A Dhennis,

First of all, my Irish is too poor to explain in Irish (sic!) the grammar mistakes. And secondly, what is the sense of leading "grammar mistake debate" in Irish if the ultimate beneficient (Riona I mean) would not understand it and might still be trying to figure out what a hell "cann ina thaobh" means. The things like "a Rhiona", "a Lhughaidh" are all to often to see on the web, so if you leave it without comment Riona might begin to believe - this is the right way to speak.

And btw - differently from you Dennis, English is not my native tongue, so gabh mo leithscéal, for no proficient Irish of mine, but in a way I am under no moral obligation to speak Gaelainn as I don't hail from Irish background and I do know MY native language - i.e. Lithuanian - impeccably. Have several accolades on that occasion, so don't use your shame technics on me, I have nothing to shame. When I am able to contribute in longer passages that just "Tá an ceart agat", I definitely will, but not now yet.

Tá áthas orm go bhfuil do theanga dhúchais ar do thoil agat. Bravo. Déarfaidh mé an rud a dúirt mé cheana uair amháin eile: is olc an mhaise duit duine eile a cheartú a scríobhann i nGaeilge, nuair nach bhfuil tú in ann an teanga a scríobh -- ná a thuiscint, de réir dealraimh -- go cruinn.

I don't think you have understood what I, as well as Seosamh, have written in Irish, so I'm going to restate it in English: If you can't express yourself in Irish, you have no business whatsoever latching on to the errors you perceive in someone else's Irish and making fun of them on the forum. Even if you were able to express your low opinion of another's Irish in Irish, it would still be bad manners to do so, without an explicit invitation from that person for correction. As Seosamh said, "that behaviour was completely out of line" (bhí an t-iompar sin glan as alt go deimhin.). Such sniping is bad enough, but when it comes from a saoithín who can't express himself in Irish and is directed against someone else who can, it is really intolerable.

quote:

don't use your shame technics on me

You should be ashamed of your behaviour!

Oh, Dennis, come on, this is laughable. Differently from you I READ what is written on the thread. And Riona SPECIFICALLY said that she is always translating the messages which mention her name. And precisely after that Breacban's post came which INTENTIONALLY mentioned her name, to make her translate as I understand. This was the only reason I was at liberty to correct although I never do so. Just for sake of helping Riona. And it is not for you to decide if I should do so or not. This is none of your business.

And yes, you are wrong - I translated your and Seosamh's posts with the help of online dictionary, so what? This English-Irish thread, not "Irish only", so wake up and stop lecturing me about the language to use on this Board. I will use the one I feel most comfortable with especially if this part of forum is bilingual.

quote:

If you can't express yourself in Irish, you have no business whatsoever latching on to the errors you perceive in someone bla bla bla

The things I figured out were not PERCEIVED but real substantial mistakes. So what was your point? If somebody doesn't speak yet, he can't figure out the mistakes? Why do you think you are so special to have solely right to correct? Irish language is public good and you have no monopoly on it whatsoever.

quote:

You should be ashamed of your behaviour!

Really? This is amusing! Could you say precisely WHAT I should ashamed of? That I am spending fortune of my money on books like "Irish of X", or that I invest my spare time in studying this language, although I have no connection to Ireland? What is this elusive thing that I should be ashamed of? There is nothing wrong in showing somebody his mistakes - this is how people have learned for several millennia. But you, as I see, are so blinded by political correctness (American style) that even saying obvious things has become rude and impolite for fear of making "stress" for someone. Is it really the fear of litigation that makes the American to behave like this, even agreeing to absurd things in order not to "offend" someone? What's wrong with you ppl?

quote:

There is nothing wrong in showing somebody his mistakes

Níl muid (Seosamh, Aonghus, agus mise ar a laghad) ar aon intinn leat ansin. Mar a dúirt Seosamh, "ionsaithe cruinnis a mhill an Ghaeilg sa tír seo le dhá ghlúin". Cuireann na hionsaithe céanna foghlaimeoirí -- agus daoine nach iad uaireanta -- ina dtost, agus an teanga féin ina tost de réir a chéile.

quote:

Is it really the fear of litigation that makes the American to behave like this, even agreeing to absurd things in order not to "offend" someone? What's wrong with you ppl?

(a) Níl an méid sin ceart. (b) Ní bhaineann sé le hábhar. (c) Ní Meiriceánach é Seosamh.

A Dhennis,

Žinai, aš irgi taip moku. Parašysiu, o tu ten speliok, ką aš norėjau pasakyti. Jeigu pačiam neužtenka mandagumo, tai jau vistiek nieko nesugebėsiu įrodyti.

Geros dienos

I don't have time tonight to read all the strings, but I'll surely come back one of these days because the problem somebody raised is tremendously big. It reminds me of a long time ago when as a child I asked my grandmother "c'mon please talk to me in brazilian" and she answered "I don't have time for that, I have to talk italian to my ten children, those bloody rascals!". That's why my mother tongue and my mother's mother tongue is italian. Problems rise in families, and families make communities.

Dear all: Peace and tranquillity! If someone makes a mistake, and it is a pretty fundamental one, anyone on this board can correct it, but hopefully politely. Rómán's way of correcting it was to poke fun, and that is not right. He could have said, "I don't think it is correct to lenite Riona, a Riona is the correct form", but this was not his way. But in a way the intervention of Dennis is just the same as the intervention of Rómán - it is just a pulling rank because he can write fluent Irish. But this is a bilingual board - posts in English are perfectly legitimate. So with regard to his personality flaws, Dennis is quite similar to Rómán in taking any chance - over the Internet (get a life?) - to demonstrate his superiority. Faulty Irish *is* allowed on this board, I am sure of that!

Andreas Novak said:

quote:

Faulty Irish *is* allowed on this board, I am sure of that!

Yes, Andreas, that's the whole point here! Any sort of Irish is not only allowed but welcome and encouraged! Criticism of anyone's less-than-perfect Irish is unwelcome and detrimental. That is exactly what I've been saying, in Irish and and in English, in this thread. And if enjoying using Irish whenever I can is a personality flaw, I plead guilty. Am I supposed to apologize for speaking Irish well, here on a forum devoted to Irish of all places?? Do you resent that?

A Dhennis,

You can enjoy Irish as much as you want. But it is just your lack of interpersonal communication skills that makes you to use unsolicited Irish in conversation with a person who has to translate then every single word with the help of dictionary. At some point the other person just gets pissed off and ignores your emails. But of course, you are entitled to relish in your Irish while speaking to the wall.

"But it is just your lack of interpersonal communication skills that makes you to use unsolicited Irish in conversation with a person who has to translate then every single word with the help of dictionary"

while I struggle to read most Irish posts, and understand completely what Riona has to go through to read them, I am leary of making the above statement for one simple reason - it is the very thing drummed into children of the gaeltacht for decades (or more)...which is why both children and adults will stop using their language - even to each other - if they perceive that an english speaker is within earshot ("because it's rude").

please don't take this as an endorsement of either Róman or Dennis position here...I think personal attacks of any sort, or corrections done for 'humorous' effect serve to discourage learners and cause them to evaporate from boards like this. There's something to the older statement above (paraphrased) that "it's not *that* you tried to help, but *how* you went about doing it"...either by embarassing or insulting...

In Wales there is no equivalent to the Gaeltachts .There are areas recognised as Welsh speaking called the Fro Gymraeg or Welsh Heartland such as Gwynned or Yns Mon. What this means in practicable terms is that maybe people in other less Welsh speaking areas such as Swansea or Cardiff feel the language is for them also not just for say Gwynned and maybe the successive goverments have thought that by "looking after the Gaeltachts " they don't need to do anything in the Galltacht. However I feel that if I could not point out on a map of Ireland a place where Irish is a community language then effectively it is dead. If I have a family I will raise them through Irish but that would be hard to justify if there were no Irish speaking areas left.

A chairde,

You are all very kind to me. I suppose I'll not continue that translation if it is something I won't be able to figure out. Someone might tell me what it says perhaps, though I don't have to be told if noone wants to, that's fine.

Quite frankly I'd be much more offended if people switched to English just because I'd come along than if they kept speaking to each other in Irish. I mean, if I'm in a Gaeltacht, lets just say that it's somewhare in Connemara for instance, and I go into a pub, I don't want everyone to resort to English just because I havn't any irish. I mean, it's their country not mine, and my lack of cleverness shouldn't infringe upon themselves.
beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Zinai, as irgi taip moku. Parasysiu, o tu ten speliok, kà as norejau pasakyti. Jeigu paciam neuztenka mandagumo, tai jau vistiek nieko nesugebesiu irodyti.

Mano prietele man isverte tavo zodzius. :-)
Irtau geros dienos.
D.
i.s. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil tú ag scríobh chuig an gclár plé i nGaeilge anois. Maith thú!

"if I'm in a Gaeltacht, ... and I go into a pub, I don't want everyone to resort to English just because I havn't any irish."

yes, but they probably will, anyway. and my understanding is that this is more likely in connemara than the others

...sigh...

cann ina thaobh
intersting but plainly wrong. It should be "cad ina thaobh", or "cad 'na thaobh"
and where are all the fadas?

Its taken from a book on the life of Sean O Hee the last speaker of carbury irish on the mainland. If he was alive you could ask him what it means I know what I took it to mean.


While I intend know offence (even though it is unavoidable), Breacban's Irish is a right dog's dinner. He seems to just skim over words thinking "well it's close enough".

While I intend no offence. I specifically do not put FRC on my posts to avoid pedantic arguments with the likes of your good self.

Ríona is a very enthusiastic learner of Irish, and she comes across as intelligent, intellectual and as having good attention to detail. It is therefore unfortunate that she should have to sit with a dictionary sifting through Irish littered with mistakes which (and I mean this quite literally) a six year old wouldn't make. One hour of learning Irish should tell you that "ní" is the negative, not "nach".

Well maybe the six year old might have been trying to say something quite different to what you had envisaged.

Anyway Im going to the irish only section from now on that way I wont confuse anymore beginners or die hard english speakers.

>a rhiona
>What is this? lenited "r"? lol

"the sound /r(')/ survives in certain Munster dialects (and sporadically elsewhere) as a form of lenited r"
(Modern Irish, Ó Siadhail)

a Mhaix,

I know this, I've read this, but it doesn't change the fact that there no validity in "rh" spelling. Secondly - there are plenties of [r']-containing words in Irish, starting with Éire/Éirinn. So Siadhail's sentence should be turned on its head to be accurate - "The lenited form of /R/ survives in certain Munster dialects (to be precise in Múscraí) as [r']" sound.

Pé sceul é, does anyone know if there is really [R] sound in Gaoth Dobhair? I'm almost 100% sure that there is no [R'] sound, although there is /R'/ phoneme which is realised as [r'], 'cause the original /r'/ is rendered as [j]. But what about [R]? There is no such thing neither in Connacht nor in Munster. And although Ó Siadhail briefly mentions the sound ("under certain circumstances")there are no examples.

(Message edited by Róman on March 06, 2006)

Max,
/r'/ can be heard (and not sporadically) amongst living speakers from all Gaeltachtaí, and among younger speakers. Are you saying that it only exists as a the phone used instead of /r/ when lenited?

AS for /R/ think of the Scottish Gael. Do you here much of that in Ireland? Well not too much, but at junctures when /r/ and /r/ come to gether, perhaps mostly.

Lughaidh did not say /R'/ is used in initial position, but that amongts older speakers, /R'/ managed to survive in non-initial position (or so I beleoved he said) in Gaoth Dobhair.

There are speakers of English from East Ulster with /R/, so I should not be surprisd of it can be heard in Donegal. It was still in South Donegal in the 20th century (as was /RR/ perhaps incidentaly when two /R/s came together, but not int he original gemminiated usage of Old Irish) according to Arndt Wigger

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/cat_e.html

quote:

Are you saying that it only exists as a the phone used instead of /r/ when lenited?

A Robeirt, níor innis Max é, ach Míchéal Ó Siadhail. But this is what I am saying - the sentence if taken directly doesn't make sense. If we go to the primary source - Brian Ó Cuív's "Irish of West Muskerry" - he states that 1) there is no initial slender [r'] which is turned invariably into [r] 2) if the vowel is not initial anymore (or to say it otherwise - when it is lenited), the {r'] sound is restored. Study this example:

rí [ri:]
a rí [@ r'i:] - vocative.

The only "exception" is word "rugadh" which is also pronounced with a slender sound in "do rugadh" [d@ r'ug@], but we may never know if maybe appropriate spelling should be "do riugadh" as there is no way to hear this word unlenited (then it is [r] whatever spelling).

Interestingly enough the passage in "Modern Irish" states "the sound /r(')/ survives.." Níl an fhios ach ag Dia, what he meant by the brackets. If you leave them, you may arrive at ludicrous truism "The sound /r/ survives in certain Munster dialects.." And I shall be forgiven for impression that /r/ phoneme is extinct in Irish bar for several God's forgotten parishes in Múscraí!!!

Le meas

So I did my best to translate that message anyway because I didn't want Breacban to think I was unkind. Best as I figured it, it was something about writing posts is Gaeilge and how I always write is Bearla but I'm doing my best to learn or something like that. Don't know how close I was but that is fine.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well, my Irish is extremely limited, but I try and expand my knowledge of it. I come here to read

Back to the topic at hand......

I personally don't think the boundries on the Gaeltacht should be removed. Keep it as is, but start expanding those boundries.

The Irish people need to choose to keep it around. All the polls I've seen seem to indicate they want to. No pain, no gain. Unfortunately, to preserve the language, people are going to have to decide to endure a little pain.

I don't believe it can be preserved unless the Irish Government takes some drastic action......

Simply put....Make it mandatory in all dealings.....esp legal or governmental.

Who has more Irish speakers at this time? Ireland or the US? When do you think we can expect the shift?

I'm afraid there is one crucial aspect concerning the question of the Gaeltacht boundaries that has not been addressed. In many ways, the Gaeltacht communities get more economic support than similar communities in the Galltacht.

I guess most of us would like to see a larger Gaeltacht, but that's beside the point. The question is, should the Gaeltacht be redefined so that the money allocated to supporting Irish-speaking communities actually go to Irish-speaking communities, or should that money be spent on English-speaking communities instead.

Ba cheart dom a rá go mbeinn ana-shásta freagraí a léamh as Gaelainn, ach scríobhas féin as Béarla an uair seo mar dúirt Aindréas ná fuil an teanga aige - agus is é Aindréas a chuir an cheist.

Jonais!

I left you message in "Phonetics i gcanúintíbh" led thoil :)

le meas