I am writing an article for the Sunday New York Times on the resurgence in interest in the Irish language in the U.S. (The story is scheduled to run the Sunday before St. Patrick's Day on March 12.) May I ask those who frequent this forum why you think it is important to learn the language? I would be very grateful for your help with my article. I've interviewed a number of teachers and professors at institutions around the nation, but I would like to hear more of your personal stories. What does the Irish language mean to you?
Many thanks,
Patricia (Bellew) Gray
Boston
Email:

Patricia,

Good luck with the article and thanks for taking the time to write it!

For me, I became interested in the language as a direct outgrowth of my interest in my Irish heritage. That interest was intensified when I found that the language was/is in danger of extinction.

I guess, like any second/third/fourth generation immigrant, I want to try to keep some connection with my ancestral land/people and the language seemed a likely way to do that.

It is a difficult language and there is a dearth of teachers where I live (rural North Carolina) but I've been plugging away at it with the help of a variety of on-line and print resources.

I'd be glad to elaborate if you have any questions.

Le meas,

James

Seeing as you're located in Boston, Patricia, may we enquire which New England Irish language organisations you interviewed? We're a fairly tight network and I haven't heard from anyone that they've been interviewed lately.

Le meas,
Cionaodh

believe me or not, I have one regret in my life: not to have started learning Gaeilge in my prime. it is by far one of the most beautiful and interesting idioms in the world. the celtic way of talking is unique. I want to be born again somewhere in a Gaeltacht, God willing.

Patricia,
I'm here in Ireland!

You could look into..

the lack of support given by the Irish government to the language in terms of resources and money to learners in the US (and indeed anywhere there is people learning Irish outside of Ireland)...

it would seem to conflict with their interest in promoting Irish culture in the US and elsewhere..

also maybe you could look at the amount of native speakers living in the US..

lots of interesting angles there actually...

looking forward to your article-hopefully it can be of use to the promotion of Irish in the US..

I have friends in the US of non Irish extract who are learning the language-I could give you there emails if you wish to contact them..

Patricia,
I'm an Irish-language enthusiast from Ireland, though not a native speaker. For me, the Irish language is about identity. The same would apply, in my opinion, to any language connected to your heritage eg. Native American languages. We over here are, especially in these modern times, so bombarded with cultural influences from both sides (the US and Britain in particular) that we are in danger of forgetting who we are; (Evidence of this can be seen in the fact that the Irish accent is becoming increasingly indistinguisable from the American one.) a nation of our own with a culture, music, people and indeed language of our own. A language gives identity to the people of a nation. It was said once that "A nation without it's own language is a nation without a soul". And though it would be hard to find a person to admit it, I think that the absence of one has a very harmful effect on the psyche (and therefore happiness) of a nation. Can a people be happy if they don't rightly know their place in it? We can only guess at the effect this very recent (maybe 150 years) loss has had on the the Irish national psyche.
Another quote expresses my feelings very well:
"A people without a language of its own is only half a nation.A nation should guard its language more than its territories, 'tis a surer barrier and a more important frontier than mountain or river".

I hope this helps, I would love to read the finished article. Maybe you could post a link to it here or email it to me at ?

For me it is a sense of identity - of connection with my ancestors and family going back centuries. The way I see it, my family lived in Ireland for something on the order of several thousand years, but my immediate branch of it for less than 100 years has lived in the US. Three generations out of countless do not overwrite the history and ancestry that is there.

Little annoys me more than some of my friends who think a celtic tattoo, affinity for the Dropkick Murphy's and eight or ten green beers on St. Paddy's Day is an adequate enough expression of one's heritage to justify the use of the term Irish-American.

I know that many Irish (and other Europeans) are frequently annoyed at the use of the hyphenated identity in America, and judging by the novelty-ification of the culture that takes place through most expressions of Irish-Americanism I can understand where they're coming from. There is, however, a way to do it - and the desire to identify oneself in the US in terms of ancestral history is not an unjustifiable one.

In my eyes, to be an authentic Irish-American...one who honors their family and the culture they profess to love, one need learn the history, the language, the geography, music, cuisine, politics and issues from Ireland. If you're going to co-opt a culture into which you were not born or raised, you owe it to that nation to do something for it in return.

It is my belief that learning the language, and imparting that language to your own children is the most solemn duty of anyone who identifies themself as Irish-American. Our ancestors' blood of centuries that lies locked in the soil of Ireland cries out for it...



Use any of that you will. -Anthony Valentino

I could present lots of valid and high-flying arguments why learning Irish is important. I could say that the language should be spared the fate of its fellow Celtic cousin Cornish, whose last native speaker died years ago, lamented in a documentary on the BBC. I could say that it should be preserved and revived as a valuable part of the European heritage, now that the EU is becoming more and more a communal conglomerate of states rather than just an area of the world. I could say that by making Irish stronger and stronger here in the USA that it might be just what the doctor ordered to rattle the native and passport carrying Irish citizens to come to the bedside of their dying Mother Tongue. But, that would not be the true heart of it. That's neither why I learn nor why I love the Irish language.

I came to Irish by chance, or possibly, I could even say that it came to me. Many of us who had been drawn into the allure of Róisín Dubh through modern pieces like Riverdance, or popular musicians like Enya, or, even earlier than that, the etherial strains of Harry's Game in Volkswagen advertisements. For some reason, of all the emerald mist that got in my eyes, the indelible mark was put into my heart by the Irish language. In college, I had a paper up in my dorm room with the words "An grá mór i do shaoil - threoraí sí mé" meaning "The great love of my life - it leads me". As time goes by, this has become truer and truer.

I started learning Irish earnestly while I was still living in Germany. I visited an online forum much like this one and was taken with the enthusiasm and playfulness there still was in the language. When I was in college back in 1995, it was predicted that Irish would be dead by 2010 - and I was brought to tears by that thought many times. Still, there is no rational explanation why this language was so personally precious. I started listening to streaming audio of Raidió na Gaeltachta, the Irish language radio of the Gaeltacht sponsored by RTÉ via the internet. I would attend and later even host online voice chat sessions known as the "Gaeilge Live Jam". I spent months translating a web-based grammar guide written by Lars Bräsicke from the German to English, just so that I could make the grammar - which is the singlemost difficult aspect of Irish for Anglophones - more accessible.

In my work for Irish, I've got no heritage to revive, no score to settle - no cause to champion. It's never been my motivation. Irish put me under a spell like from Tír na nÓg. While travelling in Ireland in 2004, I fought back tears of joy hearing children teasing each other in Irish in Dublin. I hollered at a dog at Irish on my way to Spiddal. I was like a child playing a game saying all the town and street names in Irish when I passed them. There's something about the language that enraptures me and when I finally found Daltaí na Gaeilge - I found a whole new family of people under that same spell!

Being so taken with the Irish language as an outsider, I can only imagine how it must feel to have on top of that sheer delight in the language a deeper connection to a heritage. The Irish were not the sort to "stay at home" - many of them emigrated at various times for various reasons.

I don't think there are any "more rightful" speakers of Irish than those who do it. A lot of Irish people emigrated, so it's just to follow that a love and interest in the language would infiltrate the far flung corners of the Earth.

Although I am far from fluent, but was recently touched deeply by my receiving a silver Fáinne (a symbol of willingness and dedication to speaking Irish) I always tell people the way to go is less weeping and more studying! The more people run away from the complexity of the Irish language, the more ground it loses - but, with each day someone invests to grapple with it with the goal of fluency or helping others towards that goal the Irish language can only gain ground and therefore lives to see another day.


Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share this!

-Lynn Schneider - Woodstock, NY

(Message edited by Méabh on February 22, 2006)

Patricia:

For me learning and speaking the Irish language is a matter of pride in the heritage of my ancestors. My family has been in America for generations. What better way to learn the heart and soul of a people than to learn their language. The way they look and feel about life.

Studying and spreading(I teach) the Irish language is a major part of my life now and will continue. It is a way of giving our Irish heritage back to the Irish and Irish-Americans after having a neighboring power trying to destroy our culture for centuries. Táimid anseo fós!!

John Feeney
Danbury, CT

My Dad's family is all from Ireland and while he never spoke Irish himself, my Grandfather did and fought during the rebellion. My son has taken up the Irish and is teaching me as well. It's not just a way to connect with my Dad and Irish heritage but to help save a part of the culture which has all but disappeared. There are pockets of Irish-speakers in Ireland but with the acceptance of Irish as an Official E.U. language it is imperative that it be learned and polished once again. Learning Irish is like nurturing and tending an endangered species to eventually set it free in the world. Hopefully all those who profess to be Irish and love all things Irish will see learning the language (even if only a few words) as an act of love.

Fair f*****g plé duit a Sheáin51. Beir Bua!

I hope you would mention that there is huge apathy in Ireland over the language and alot people don't really care about it. The youth, especially now are losing their Irish identity and many are questioning the point of spending money on Irish at all.

Some figures from the census: 1.5 million Irish people 'can speak it' according to themselves. 350,000 use it daily. Something like 29,000 Americans have it as a home language according to a census that was posted here.

the figures posted here relating to Irish can be found as part of U.S. English, Inc. on their site http://www.us-english.org/inc/

i've heard figures from ireland for real daily speakers as high as 350,000 and as low as 40,000. It appears that both the pro- and anti-gaeilge sides have axes to grind and calculate the numbers differently. In the end, those that love it would die for it, those who hate it hate it with a passion. Depending on which side you are listening to at the moment, you can get a completely different picture regarding the future of the language.

My guess is that real numbers lie somewhere in between. Regardless of what they really are, I am a firm believer that the future of Gaeilge lies *outside* the Gaeltacht. The only way to keep it alive within those confines is to isolate it, which in the end will just prolong its extinction. While some of the Gaeltacht population no doubt loves the language and is active in support of it, it seems that those most dedicated to it are students...many of whom do not reside in Ireland at all.

I am learning Irish, but the point of learning has nothing to do with Irish nationalism. Irish Gaelic was the language of at least 50% of my ancestors, and theirs is an ancient tongue that was spoken all over Europe, or at least the heir of one spoken all over Europe, and I am fascinated by their ancient Ogham script too. I am disappointed by the large numbers of people on this forum who insist that learning Irish is something to do with Irish independence, grandfathers who fought in the rebellion, anti-British and anti-Unionist prejudice generally.

What is the point of Daltaí making it clear that you have to agree with only one of Ireland's traditions in order to participate in this forum? The Unionists are at least partly of Gaelic descent too, and we all know that the Irish language survived into living memory in Antrim. It is quite wrong to imply that one has to support the Easter Uprising and the anti-Crown forces in the civil war in order to take interest in the culture of one's ancestors. And it is this attempt to make a political point out of the Irish language that prevents Northern Protestants from taking greater interest.

Honestly, the prejudice in this forum is phenomenal. "A neighbouring power trying to destroy Ireland's culture for centuries". This is not a full recounting of history. Irish people voluntarily gave up the Irish language both in the 19th century and in the 20th century, and the policy of the Irish state towards the revival of Irish has been perverse to say the least. Point the blame at your own politicians, not at England. I can't agree with the constant anti-English tone of this forum. England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales are historically one. To me, the persistence of Irish Gaelic in Ireland need be no more anti-British than the survival of Scottish Gaelic in Scotland. The Irish Gaelic language is part of British heritage, I would say.

As someone who participates in or at least reads this forum quite regularly and has participated fully in Daltaí's immersion weekends for years, David, I would like to point out that Daltaí itself doesn't espouse or preach anything but love for this language. They tolerate and allow all opinions expressed politely. How could they practically do anything else, David? They don't delete all the opinions written in that insist Britain had no negative influence on the Irish language. It's just that no one posts that sort of message. There are circumstances in the history of Irish that can't be changed or overturned, and people do seem to want to discuss them at length, but I believe it's very unfair to say that Daltaí 'makes it clear that you have to agree' with anyone. There's enough here on this site that you can pick out the messages that help you and pass over the ones that don't. Ádh mór ort,
Le gach dea-mhéin,
Colleen

I mo thuarim, tá sé deacair a rá an fuath agam maidir leis na puncánaigh agus é a chuir faoi cheilt.
Does that make sense? You should use that in you're article. No exact translation. It's an old proverb which, in my opinion, symbolises the spirit which is keeping the language going in non-Gaelteacht regions. The education system is failing us badly. Where the language is not ever used outside the walls of the school, there is no need to learn the master pieces of gaelic literature. We are not obliged to be tested in the language orally until the final exam itself. It is a f***ing disgrace. To summarise the education system, I am more profficient in 2/3 years of French than after 12-ish years of Irish. My eyes well up with tears when I hear people absorbing foreign accents due to "Eastenders" and shows of the like. Though we only use American phrases mockingly, there are fewer and fewer "Hiberno-Irish" phrases used. The days of top o' tha mornin' to ya are well and truly gone, if ever they existed but atleast in the past their could have been debate. I'd say that without radical changes the language could be dead before we are under the grey soils of Monaghan.

"Irish people voluntarily gave up the Irish language both in the 19th century and in the 20th century"



I for one welcome anyone who wants to learn the language regardless of their politics, nationality or ancestry. My comments were both to answer why I feel drawn to the language myself, and to illustrate that all Irish-Americans are not those typically seen on the tv, who make a caricature of Irish culture which can frequently be insulting to the Irish themselves.

As for your statement about voluntarily giving up the language...

if you consider giving up your language because it was used to single your family out for denied opportunities and civil rights, in the face of a crushing economic stranglehold by a foreign oppressor, then, yes, it was voluntary.

While we wish the Irish had not left the language as they did during those times, the fact of the matter is that it was official policy of the British government - codified into law as well as practiced in every schoolhouse that the language was to be exterminated. The Irish would not have left the language had it been possible to continue speaking it *and* have a future for their families.

Thanks to British policy, however, that was impossible and the Irish were left with a choice: Gaeilge with destitution or English with an ability to keep food on the table. I don't consider a choice made with a (sometimes literal) gun to one's head a 'voluntary' one.

If today's unionists want to jump on board the Gaeilge-train, great...the more the merrier! And they don't have to stop being unionists to do it, either! Come as you are, the language awaits...and we love having people to talk to...

however, please don't try to tell me that the failure of ad hoc measures taken in the twilight of the language debacle in the last 80 years by the Irish government to revive the language outweigh 700 years of systematic and purposeful attempts by the British government, using every tool at their disposal, to destroy it.

"England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales are historically one."
really?
"The Irish Gaelic language is part of British heritage, I would say."
really?
what history books have you been reading??

Antaine, as an illustration of the anti-British prejudice on this board, your post was a classic. Now you wonder why Ireland is not united? It is not united precisely because of attitudes like yours. Why should Unionists want to jump in bed with a bunch of Brit-haters?

First of all, there was no "foreign oppressor" in Ireland. Britain is only a "foreign" country since 1922, and then only with respect to 26 counties. You might as well say that Scottish Gaelic and Welsh have declined due to "foreign" oppression. As for your argument that England has pulled out all the stops for 700 years to crush the Irish language, I have to tell you the lingo was still going strong up until the Famine. And an awful lot of inaccurate BS, trying to make out England was to blame, has been written on that subject. Yes, schools were designed to promote the English language, not just in Ireland, but in Wales and elsewhere, but the spread of English was largely a matter of the logic of economic development. Welsh children were beaten for speaking in Welsh at school - but 500,000 still speak Welsh to this day. Ultimately, Irish people did not value their heritage and thus lost their language.

There were 00s of 000s of speakers left in 1922, following what you claim to be 700 years of English oppression. Irish people may prefer to blame England, but they only have themselves to blame. Why do you not refer to the Irish government in the same choice terms as you refer to the British government? If Britain was using all the tools at its disposal to crush Irish, what about the Irish government? Or are you fooled by the ROI's claim to want to revive the language? The Irish government funds English-language call centres in the Gaeltacht as a way of supposedly protecting the Irish language.

As long as for you and a number of other goons on this board treat the Irish language as a badge of anti-British prejudice, you delegitimise the Irish language - and thus retrospectively justify its demise.

"You might as well say that Scottish Gaelic and Welsh have declined due to "foreign" oppression."

The Irish, Welsh, Scots, Manx and Cornish are Celtic peoples. The English are a Germanic people. They are indeed "foreigners" in that respect. Ireland and Wales were invaded and conquered by people of another ethnocultural group ("Foreigners", which are, in this case, the English). The Kazakhs were under Russian control for a long, long time...part of the Soviet Union and all...are Russians not 'foreigners' to the Kazaks?

The lingo was stronger, pre-famine, but not 'going strong.' From the time of the plantations onward, Irish had been on a slow decline due to the harsh conditions created for the native population by the government of Great Britain. The famine was but the last 'nail in the coffin' so to speak.

What constituted a 'speaker' in 1922 for the count in 1922 is not the same criteria used today. The census questions have been revised numerous times for the sake of accuracy, trying to discern who has knowledge of the language from who is actually using it. You cannot compare 1922 census numbers with those of today as the same question was not being asked. I'm not saying that todays numbers are inaccurately low, I'm saying that 1922's nubmers were inflated. While there has likely been a decline since 1922, because of the questions that were asked, I don't believe it's been as sharp as it seems looking at the raw data. They have the questions online, if you don't believe me.

And I never said that the Irish gov't has used good management or judgement. Part of it does come down to an undervaluing of the language, and part of it to the fact that pulling a language back from the brink is damn hard and no two countries have the same situation - so one can't even take what worked somewhere else and apply it with any certainty that it will have the desired effect. But I do believe that lack of a clear, focused plan on the part of the Irish gov't has stymied many efforts between 1922 and today.

As for the Welsh, while there was action taken against the language, the lack of a massive famine devestating the areas where the language was still spoken has something to do with the disparity of the numbers. I'd be interested to know if Wales was made subject to Penal Laws of the harshness and duration as Ireland, but I attribute the gap mainly to the famine.

The Irish are a distinct ethnic group from the English. If you wish to make the connection that recognizing that is anti-British then so be it. I'm not advocating that. The Native Americans lost much of their language and cultural practices due to harsh treatment by the US government. Is a Native American learning his ancestral language a 'nationalistic' act? absolutely! Need it be construed as 'anti-American'? Not at all.

Antaine, this is just anti-British prejudice. You clearly know nothing of the ethnic make-up of the British Isles. What makes you think that the Irish are a Celtic people? This is ignorance on stilts. Research shows that the Irish people are mainly Palaeolithic in their origin, having close DNA connections with the Basque people (this is also confirmed by the Irish myths). The Celts came later than the original settlers of Ireland, and brought their language, but are not the dominant ethnic strain in Ireland or England for that matter. England and Ireland both have a strong Palaeolithic component. As for later Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and Norse invaders: well all English people have Celtic ancestors, and all Irish people have Germanic ancestors as well as the Palaeolithic and Celtic ancestors.

Your attempt to spread racial prejudice against British people extends to your distortion of history. Yes, you are probably right that the language was not going strong by the early part of the 19th century, but that was due to economic factors. After all in earlier centuries there was no comprehensive school system that could be used in order to spread the English language. Some parts of southern Ireland have been English speaking for many, many centuries, but this is not - contrary to your claims - due to attempts to beat the Irish language out of the Irish people, but due to the presence of people from England and Scotland and the natural economic advantages of learning English.

A famine does not in and of itself lead to the loss of a language. Gaelic culture was not as entrepreneurial as the culture of England, and long after the effects of the famine were overcome, people left for the lands of opportunity - England and America. Your whiny post is just an attempt to claim "victim status" for Ireland. England's main objective in Ireland was to introduce the Protestant church, not to excise the Gaelic language. The penal laws had nothing to do with the Irish language.

The British nation has 4 subnations: England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. At the time of partition, large numbers of people in the south supported the Union. Ian Paisley has frequently condemned what he refers to as the cultural genocide of protestants in the south. How do protestants in the south get to be only 1% today? Can you explain that? The whole of the British Isles is a Paleolithic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon/Norse mish-mash, and there can be no united Ireland until it is recognised that Ireland has much in common with Britain.

the british nation is a construct of the english mind.
" Gaelic culture was not as entrepreneurial as the culture of England," and what culture would that be, the culture of england? aren't we all the same, according to your theory?
from 1367, statutes of kilkenny"...use the Irish language amongst themselves, contrary to the ordinance, and therof be attainted, his lands and tenements, if he have any, shall be seized into the hands of his immediate lord, until he shall come to one of the places of our lord the king, and find sufficient surety to adopt and use the English language, and then he...."
hmmmm, no oppression there? oh, good king eddy was looking out for paddy's economic interests, is that it?

d webb, you present your issues poorly and seem to have much prejudice yourself. you seem so hung up on your antibrit issue that you overlook other points. your perspective appears nearly as extreme as the alleged antibrits. accusing someone of making a "whiny post" and assuming that they want 'victim status' based on???
you seem to want to "introduce" your theories like england, according to you, simply wanted to "introduce" the prot. religion. under your theory ireland would have a lot in common w/ many other countries. we could go around testing eu18 haplo type, but at the end of the day, what would we have?

The Statutes of Kilkenny were not the Penal Laws. The problem England was trying to address in 1367 was the way Anglo-Norman lords were "going native" once in Ireland.

"going native"


...mmmkaaay....

so

if Ireland has a language and culture...

...and the Anglo-Normans from England have a different language and culture...

...one different enough for the crown to see such a change of traditions as a major problem...

...how are they not 'foreigners', again?


England's domination of Ireland was every bit as much a 'foreign power' situation as China/Tibet, Russia/Finland (and countless others), US/Native Americans, Spain/South America, etc etc etc

Antaine, the Norman lords were not in fact English. How come you don't know this? They came from France. Edward I took his coronation oath in 1337 in French. England did not choose to be ruled by Normans, any more than Ireland did. But the descendants of those Normans are on our throne and in our aristocracy today and ditto for Ireland. Are you denying that the Burkes and Fitzgeralds are Irish?

No one is denying that the more tribal parts of the British Isles experienced a culture clash with the more advanced areas, but to discuss whether the Anglo-Norman lords were seen as "foreign" in the 14th century is a separate question from analysing Ireland's relations with the UK today. Those Anglo-Norman lords, Vikings and goodness knows who else became part of the Irish nation, even if they weren't so at first, and 700 years have now passed and this history cannot be unpicked.

After 700 years of history together it is artificial to proclaim an independent nation. Since when was there a united Ireland not under British rule? Never? It was just a morass of squabbling tribes before. And the presence of the Unionists proves that Ireland is not a separate nation from Britain. How come 1m members of your nation give their allegiance to the British queen? History, genealogy, religion, language and all sorts bind the British isles together. Yes, language too. if the Scottish highlanders can speak Gaelic and be both Scottish and British, your speaking a Gaelic language does not differentiate you from the rest of the British nation. Ultimately partition was a cowardly option and Britain should have fought more tenaciously to stay in the whole 32 counties.

"The State Papers… show us that the extirpation of that language [Irish]remained the state policy. Again and again we find plans put forward for this purpose, statutes passed, or orders sent from the King himself, such as the following found in a letter from Henry VIII to the town of Galway in 1536: ‘that every inhabitant within the saide towne indevor theym selfe to speke Englyshe, and to use theym selffe after the Englysh facion; and specyally that you… do put forth your childe to scole, to lerne to speke Englyshe.’" (Professor Brian Ó Cuiv)

The Irish language was so widespread in the city of Dublin in 1657 that the local (English appointed) authority was sufficiently worried to issue the following edict ‘By the lawes all persons of this lande ought to speke and use the English tongue… contrarie whereunto and in open contempt wherof, there is Irish commonlie and usually spoken… not onlie on the streetes, and by such as live in the countrie and come to this cittie on market dayes, bur also by and in severall families in the cittie.’

The City Council was requested ‘to lay downe some rules… for the redresse of the said evills’.

Do not accuse others of being ignorant of Irish History, David, when you have such a selective, self-serving, knowledge of it yourself.

I find both sides of the coin "The Brits are entirely to blame" and "The English are entirely innocent" to be fairly tedious.

As usual, the truth lies disregarded - somewhere in the middle.

Ach ní thuigim conas go bhfuil an argóint seanchaite seo ag cabhrú le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge.

Agus, a Mhic Webb, táim amhrasach an bhfuil tú ag foghlaim Gaeilge in aon chor. Feictear dhom nach é sin an cloch is mó ar do phaidrín anseo.

There is some truth to what David says about the Irish government showing apathy toward Gaeilge. Case and point:
Recently I wrote to the passport office in Irish and received a reply written in English. Patriotism for you.

"Recently I wrote to the passport office in Irish and received a reply written in English."

This is actually illegal under the Languages Act. I hope you are going to assert your rights.

"As usual, the truth lies disregarded - somewhere in the middle."

The truth lies where the truth lies, a Aonghais, and it is not always in the middle.

I'd like to remind you all that this thread was about providing information to a reporter about Irish language studies and motivations therefor. I'm not sure what the writers of the last dozen or so messages are trying to convey to that reporter, but I can guess what kind of impression she's getting. Would you like her to write about your petty squabble here, or about our language?

Enough already.

I take your point, a Chionaidh, but I think you should also recognise the fact that David Webb ruined this thread when he introduced Unionist and British imperialist politics to the discusssion that was going on. I find that exremely objectionable. I have my own political views which are the polar opposite of David Webb's but I don't think that I have any right to impose my politics on Daltaí na Gaeilge (it is actually against the rules). Why is he allowed to do this?

quote:

Why is he allowed to do this?

Good question.

I was away yesterday and returned home this evening.

Further posts with political overtones, regardless of their viewpoint, will be deleted.

Caoimhín

Tá an ceart agat, a Lucy, ach tá muidinne i bhfad níos láidre ná é nó iad.

"There is some truth to what David says about the Irish government showing apathy toward Gaeilge."

If our reporter is still reading this thread, that would be an interesting point to bring up. The Irish government's support of the language seems to be haphazard at best - lacking any clear focus, which mitigates the effectiveness of anything done in support of it.

The result is that most of the people I know who live in Ireland outside the official Irish-speaking areas are amazed when I tell them about the work and programs of Daltaí na Gaeilge. Many have a hard time understanding how we 'yanks' can have such passion for a language that is so frequently met with apathy from many sectors at home. When I tell them even further that a number of the most dedicated scholars of the language that I've met have no personal or family connection with Ireland at all, amazement becomes absolute disbelief...

Daltaí na Gaeilge has done tremendous work to benefit the language...

just give it up! politics are
killing Irish period abandon
petty views here please leave it for
for the pub. I come
to learn, not to be in a pissin contest!

This thread became really interesting, certain posts left me rather shocked I suppose, but replies were really quite well done. I particularly took a liking to Antaine's responses pertaining to the Irish being made to learn English in order to survive, not so much a choice there. But it does seem that the Irish government is really lacking in viable support for the language, people talk and not much of real worth gets done in the grand scheme of things. As for anti-British sentiment, it is not nearly as prevelent as it could be. And those things that are said seem to pertain to history and not people today. I'm a young American woman and I know that Americans have in the in the past committed such atrosities as slavery and the savage massacre of so many Native Americans. I don't try to justify that just because its been done by people of the same country as myself. I think the all of that was disgusting, wrong and terrible. And I don't care if other people talk about how wrong it was because they're ever so right. I don't want people to hold the sins of previous generations against because I'm from the same country because those things were not my fault and I wasn't envolved. People here don't seem to be blaming you, David, for the unkindnesses of your ancestors, but when you talk to us like that I think it might become a temptation for some. And I do think that anyone that likes the language should learn it, despite any feeling one way or another politically.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Please see post #1 for the topic of this thread and my post above regarding political posting.

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Caoimhín

I thought the really pertinent point was that made by one of the (much) earlier posters - that most Irish school students are better at French after only a couple or three years than they are at Irish after 12years.
Just why is that? It is true that - after all the arguing about original blame and politicking blah blah, the fact is that successive Irish Governments have been unable to make any significant impression at all.
Personally I agree with the poster who said that the future of the language is outside the current Gaeltachta.Many of us here in the UK are networking in Irish , holding language events , conferences,classes and study weekends. And you folks in the US and across the rest of the world are doing a great job of re-igniting Irish in the diaspora. It's at home - ironically - that they're letting the side down.

Dáithí Ó Geanainn
PS I wrote last month to the President of Ireland in Irish regarding a language weekend here in the Uk. Today I just received a very polite reply from Oifig Runaí an Uachtaraín...in English.Sigh.

French is easier than Irish?

Well here's some insight from a nineteen year old who underwent all of their education in schools in Dublin:

Leaving out playschool, I went to three schools:

Ages 4 to 7: A pre-primary school... can't remember if I started learning Irish then.

Ages 7 to 12: A primary school. Of the five years I spent there, I had a different teacher each year. I actually learned some Irish from only one of them, a fluent enthusiast from Kerry, who regularly represented the school as Gaeilge in radio interviews and so forth. The other teachers had difficulty with "Is liomsa an peann".

Ages 12 to 17: Secondry school. Thankfully, I was thrown straight away into the honours class with quite possibly the best school teacher I've ever had. I learned massive amounts in the five years in his class.

So for around about the 10 to 12 years I was supposed to be learning Irish, only 6 of them were actually productive. I was fortunate... for most people I'd say the figure is zero.

What's my views? Well, don't get a German person to teach you Spanish. It's about the teacher's proficiently. I'd say about 10% of Irish teachers know the past tense of "is". If any of you are reading, it's "ba".

==

As for the whole anti-British thing... well I don't see the point. The people who did the bad things are all long dead, so unless you've got a time machine then you're not going to achieve anything. If they were still alive, I would've been at the riot in town myself! Harassing their (allegeded) decendants won't get you anywhere either -- for all I know, my great great great great grandfather could have murdered seventeen children and raped fifty-two women, but that has no bearing on me as a person whatsoever. Ancestors are in the past. If you like them, then "pursue your heritage"; if you don't like them, then feel free to forget.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on February 27, 2006)

Many, many thanks to all of you who responded to my post. To answer one of the posters, I visited two classes being taught in New Haven by Pat Whelan, one of them at Yale University. I was utterly smitten by the beauty of the language and I plan to sign up for classes this spring here in Boston. I am on deadline now -- the article is due in an hour -- but I will respond more directly to some of your questions soon.
All the best,
Patricia

ádh mór leat

I hope that the reporter who orginally posted this thread will not read some of the previous postings and think that this is typical behavior of those wishing to revive the language here in the United States...please forgive us. You will find that anyone that has a passion for any language tends to let their passions get the best of them when it comes to the many issues of the language.

As for me, I am not of Irish decent, I don't care for the politics, and learning the language as it exists today has very little to do with identity for me.

The first time I heard the language, I was at a one of those Renaissance Fairs. There is one that comes to town every year and I was 16 with a license. It was your typical fair really...period clothing, bad accents, and just a good time all around. The last act of the day was a singer from Donegal. She couldn't have been older than six or seven, cute as could be with her blonde hair a pretty dress. When she started singing it was in Irish. Now, I had never heard the language before so of course I didn't understand a word of it, but somehow it was if I knew exactly what she was saying. In just a few verses, she had me completely enchanted. As I listened on I noticed that I wasn't the only one. I started watching the people and it was like magic, it was like her singing brought the inner souls of the people to the surface. People were smiling, crying, laughing, tapping their feet to the paces of the songs.

It was at that exact moment that Irish entered my life.

In my mind...Irish is not being revived here in the United States, I think it is better say that when the Irish came to this country they brought with them seeds from the old country that are only now starting to sprout. Who knows, maybe someday the United States will be a garden full of Irish Roses.