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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (March-April) » Archive through March 05, 2006 » Irish surnames « Previous Next »

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 04:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is is common for people to use their father's and mother's Irish surnames? eg Pádraig Ó Riaghain Mac an tSaoir

If so, would you put the father's surname before the mother's?

Currently learning Irish and English. Please bear with me.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2989
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is not common - I don't think it ever happens.

What can happen in the Gaeltacht is that if the Mother is more prominent, the causal name might be "Pádraig Mháire Bháin" for example. - Maire Bháin's Pádraig in english. (In many gaeltacht areas almost everyone has the same or one of a few surnames, so surnames don't get used)

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 12:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Many thanks Aonghus,

It's nice that they use the full name of the parent after the child's name :) It's very.. intimate or something.

Anyway, the reason I asked was because I want to change the name on my passport to Irish, and as I use both my parents surnames in English, I thought I should do the same in Irish. I just wasn't sure if there was a particular way of doing it.. perhaps it's a golden rule to use only one surname.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1027
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 03:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I myself am going down that road too, going to get my name in Irish on my passport.

It will still say something like the following somewhere in it:

quote:

Name on Birth Cert:

Stephen John Kelly



But the page with the picture and all will have:

Stiofán Seán Ó Ceallaigh

I think though, that it isn't as straight forward anymore to get your name in Irish on it. There's some rule now like you have to produce proof that you've been using that name for the last three years...

But in other ways, they seem to be quite lax; I've seen people called "John, Deborah, Gerard" get the likes of:

Johnny
Debbie
Gerry

on their passports without a bat of an eyelid.

Even more surprisingly, if your name was "John Brian Kelly", and everyone called you "Brian", then you can quite easily get "Brian Kelly" on your bank accounts and so forth. (Not exactly sure about passports).

If it's so easy to get a different name on your passport, it seems like deed polls are becoming obsolete...

If I get hassle from the passport office, I think I'll contact my bank(s) and ask them to change my name to Irish, then get a bank statement off them.

Has anyone else here gotten their name in Irish on their passport? How did it go?

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2993
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 03:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ceolmhar, I seem to have unintentionally misled you.

"Máire Bháin" would be white/fair Mary - i.e. it's not a surname, it's a way of distinguishing one Mary from all the others.

Tá pas i nGaeilge agamsa, ach 'sé mo shin-sheanathair a thosaigh ag úsáid an foirm gaeilge. Sin atá ar mo theastas breithe.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2994
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 03:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

perhaps it's a golden rule to use only one surname



If you use both in English, I'd say it is best to use both in Irish too.

One of my sons teachers has a double barrelled name - Ní Chrean Loinsigh - but I don't know how she acquired it.

As far as I know, Irish law does not specify what a married or family name is - we ran into problems registering our second son in Germany for that very reason.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 2995
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 03:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post


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Fiacc (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 04:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Fear na mBróg,

I applied to the passport office many years ago to change my name from English to Irish. Initially they refused unless I could produce the kind of evidence you mention. The reason was, apparently, that professional criminals were applying for them so that they could, legitimately, use two diferent identities when it suited them. I stood my ground and they gave in.

You are in a much stronger position now. If they give you hassle, just cite the Languages Act (2002). I understand they would be breaking the law to refuse you. If that doesn't work write to the Language Commissioner. He'll sort them out.

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 01:14 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

Thanks for that. I had already looked at the Deed Pole site but I would like to avoid that if at all possible. I would like to excersise my right to have my name in Irish on official documents.
How would a double-barrel surname be written in Irish? eg: Pádraig Ó Riaghain Mac an tSaoir - would that be acceptable?


Fear_na_mbróg,

I don't think the bank will change your name without you providing some sort of official documentation with your Irish name on it.. I know my bank won't permit it anyway. It's a bit catch 22 because in order to change you passport name to Irish you must prove that you use the name day-to-day, eg, with bank statments!
There must be a way around it.


Fiacc,

All I can find is the Official Languages Act 2003 - http://www.pobail.ie/en/IrishLanguage/OfficialLanguagesAct2003/

I can't find anything in the documents relating to name changes. Any ideas? Perhaps I should get in touch with minister Éamon Ó Cuív.

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 01:28 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

One other thing, could somebody explain to me why some Irish surnames use 'Mac' or 'Ó'? Eg. Ó Bradaigh & Mac Bradaigh - they both mean Brady.

I know 'Mac' is 'son of' and 'Ó' is just 'of/from'. Why would you choose one above the other? Is it interchangable? Or are they completly different surnames?

This stuff is really confusing me!

GRMA

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Fiacc (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 04:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Cheolmhair,

Tá an ceart agat. Yes it is the Official Languages Act 2003. It doesn't say anything about name changes but "this Act is the first piece of legislation in which a statutory planning process is set out to ensure that services will be provided through Irish. The main objective of the Act is to provide a wider range of services through Irish, at a higher standard, from the public service". If you write to a state agency in Irish, they are legally obliged to respond to you in Irish. There is nothing more fundamental than a person's name. I'm not a lawyer but if you fill in a form requesting that the Dept. of Foreign Affairs issue a passport with your name in Irish, the first official language, I don't see how they could refuse without breaching the Act.

The Language Commissioner, Seán Ó Cuirreáin is there to ensure that the Act is complied with by the public service. Anyone having problems with any state agency should appeal to him.

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Lars
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Username: Lars

Post Number: 40
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 07:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

> Is is common for people to use their father's
> and mother's Irish surnames?
> eg Pádraig Ó Riaghain Mac an tSaoir

I cite 'Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí':
"10.10: Gabhann an chéad sloinne de shloinne comhshuite an fhoirm dar crioch -ch más ann dó (10.7): Eoin Donnabhánach de Paor; teach Thomáis Niallaigh Uí Laighin."
(translated: the first surname of combined surnames gets the form ending on -ch, if such a form exists)

Form ending on -ch: Ó Riaghain -> an Riaghanach.
So we get: "Pádraig Riaghanach Mac an tSaoir"

> If so, would you put the father's surname before the
> mother's?

What we're talking about is an American Middle Name, aren't we? I think, we can apply the above mentioned grammar rule here, as well. (Perhaps this rule was made for such names.)
So it (the mother's surname) should keep its middle position. :-)
E.g. John Fitzgerald Kennedy -> Seán Gearáltach Ó Cinnéide

> One other thing, could somebody explain to me
> why some Irish surnames use 'Mac' or 'Ó'? Eg. Ó > Bradaigh & Mac Bradaigh - they both mean Brady.

No, "Brady" is used for both Irish names.

> I know 'Mac' is 'son of' and 'Ó' is
> just 'of/from'.

No, "Ó" is a grandson, or a descendant.

> Why would you choose one above the other?
> Is it interchangable?
> Or are they completly different surnames?

Once there were people called "Ó Bradaidh" and others called "Mac Bradaigh".
And both have been anglicised to "Brady".
The Irish form is the original name.
If you know your ancestors were called "Ó Bradaigh" in Irish you should use this form, too.

Lars

(Message edited by Lars on February 19, 2006)

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1028
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

There are potentially a few issues.

If our government referred to us all by a designation (eg. Citizen Number 8547), then we would be able to change our name and the Government could simply keep track of us by this number. Therefore there would be no problem of "not knowing who's who". Perhaps our PPS number serves this purpose (Personal Public Service Number)?

It looks like there are two routes:
a) With a deed poll
b) Without a deed poll

A) Let's say your name is "Thomas Rossiter", and you stroll into the Garda station with a passport form, and your name written as "Tomás Ó Rossiteach". Who's to say that it's a legitimate translation? It would be pretty handy for a criminal named "Deborah Rossiter" to get a passport saying "Gobnet Ní Chaoilteach"!
Secondly, if your birth cert says "Thomas Rossiter", and your passport says "Tomás Ó Rossiteach"... then what exactly is your name... ? Perhaps your "legal name" is the name that appears on your birth cert, unless you get a deed poll.
I wonder what the Government's official stance is on getting "Gerry" instead of "Gerard" on your passport?

B) Change your name. Get a passport. Simple.


I suppose the best thing would be to stroll into a Garda station with the form filled out in Irish. If they don't complain, then just go with the flow! Just hope you get your passport in the post!

===

Another thing. I don't believe in the prospect of there being different language forms of a name. Let's say your name is "John Kelly", well then your name isn't "Seán Ó Ceallaigh" -- it's either one or the other.
What I do recognise however is the idea of a person wanting to go by a name which represents their heritage. So let's say it's the 21st Century, and we have a chap born by the name of "John Kelly" in Westmeath. I would agrue that this man's name isn't Seán Ó Ceallaigh. However, the interesting thing about his name is that is most definitely was "translated" in the past from Irish, and that we can trace back the translation. So, we can say that his ancestors went by the name of "Ó Ceallaigh", which was the original form of his surname before surnames were "translated" to English.
From this, I find it quite acceptable that the person would choose to be known by their "Irish name"... but I wouldn't be too mad about people calling themselves "Séan Ó Ceallaigh" one second, and "John Kelly" the next!

I'd say it's a big step to take to actually change your name... I've been going by the same name for ninteen years now!

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:11 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Ceolmhair,

If the English surname, Brady, was in fact anglicized from two different surnames:

Ó Brádaigh
Mac Brádaigh


Then I think Geography will tell you the difference. Maybe "Ó Brádaigh" were more confined to Connacht, while "Mac Brádaigh" were more confined to Munster.

If you can trace your family back to either part, then well and good! If you can't, then flip a coin.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

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Podsers
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Username: Podsers

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 06:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ar an ábhair seo, Cloisim an aimn Pat "The Pope" Gallagher arís is arís cén fáth go bhfuil "The Pope" i lár?

'Maith agat

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3019
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 04:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní The Pope atá air, ach "The Cope" - chuir a (shean?)athair Co-Op ar bun san Clochán Leith, agus ghreamaigh an leasainm ar fhéin agus a shliocht - Paddy "the Cope" Ó Gallachóir.

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Podsers
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Username: Podsers

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

'Maith Agat, Aonghus

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Maidhc_Ó_g
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Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 151
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 04:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

According to MacLysacht:

(Mac) Brady - Mac Brádaigh (possibly 'brádach', spirited or'brad', urging). A poerful Breffny sept. Co. Cavan. For Brady in Co. Clare see O'Grady.

(O') Grady - Ó Gradaigh (gráda, illustrious). A Dalcassian sept. The leading damily went to Co. Limerick but the majority are still in Co. Clare whre the prefix Ó is retained more than elsewhere. An important branch changed their name to Brady in the late sixteeenth century. The well-known name Grady has to a large extent absorbed the rarer Gready which is a properly Mayo name. This resulted in the name Grady being numerous in north Connacht and adjacent areas of Ulster.

And also ......Mac Grady - Mag Brádaigh. A Co. Down variant of MacBrady as also are MacGraddy and MacGrade.

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Angearaltach
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Username: Angearaltach

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 08:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

In gaeltacht areas, if you're father is/was a man of stature, it is usual to take his name as kind of a double-barrel first name. ie athair=seán, your name= maidhc sheánín

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 02:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Thanks to all for the comments. Ó Bradigh it is!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 3026
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 05:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ó Bradaigh, please! (Caol le caol...)

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Ceolmhar
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Username: Ceolmhar

Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 10:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

typo a bhí ann. how did I spell that arseways!? GRMA for the correction Aonghus. :)

Bradaigh Bradaigh Bradaigh *drill sound*

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Joe Marley (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:35 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi, I want to say: Best of luck to you my friend.

Is that: Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat mo chara, or Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat a chara?

Or none of the above?

Many thanks.

Joe

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Larry
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Username: Larry

Post Number: 148
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 05:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Joe,

If you're addressing your friend directly, use "a chara"

"mo chara" would be used if you're talking about your friend.

Larry Ackerman

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Ben Mc Hugh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 09:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dia Diut my name is ben n i live in dublin and im just wonderin if anybody can tell me if Mc Hugh is irish or scottsh cause im realy confused about it . Go raibh maith agat

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 1048
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As far as I know, it's an anglicisation of the Irish surname: Mac Aodha.

Stick around and others should be able to tell you more.

Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It can be either Scottish or Irish depending on your own family background and it may be declined, again depending on your own family background, as either a first declension noun giving Mac Aoidh or a third declension giving Mac Aodha.

Ciallaíonn an méid sin go bhfuil taighde le déanamh agat - that means a bit of research on your part to determine what forms would seem to be suggested by your family background.
You may even come on English forms in your family documentation which would suggest that 'Mag' rather than 'Mac' may be more fitting for you; 'Mc Gee' having been used, for example, would point to an original 'Mag Aoidh', a common form before vowels and a few consonants.


Go n-éirí sin leat.

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Maidhc_Ó_g
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Username: Maidhc_Ó_g

Post Number: 154
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 02:50 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

" MacHugh is a form of MacAodha very numerous in north Connacht and west Ulster. There were two distinct septs of this name in Co. Galway : one was located near Tuam and the other, a branch of the O'Flahertys, in Connemara."

- 'The Surnames of Ireland' by Edward MacLysacht.

"MacGee - MagAoidh (Aodh equates with Hugh.) Usually spelt Magee in east Ulster where Island Magee on the Antrim coast locates that prominent sept. In addition, some MacGee families are of north-west Ulster origin, some are of Scottish stock."



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