I wonder if Irish is the language that gets butchered most in the world?

By "butchered", I mean people use it incorrectly. Our own government can't even write decent Irish on a road sign... plus, as Dennis demonstrated, if you Google for an expression in Irish, often the "incorrect version" will be found more times.

So does Irish get the award for "Most Butchered Language"?

Well, Brian 'Biffo' Cowan was talking about introducitons in the budget a few weeks ago, and fáilte was upon on a sign as 'failté' /fa:l't'@/ vs /fal't'e:/. So.......

I think Robert is trying his best to see that English gets the prize

this one is always good for a chuckle

http://engrish.com/

Well one certainly would have to measure how much the language is used period, and then find the ratio of proper to improper use. Is Irish used incorrectly more often than not?

I doesn't knows about ya'll but i learned myself how to spoke gooder english then mostess peoples i knows haha

hey, after all, it is important well English speak because the langauge are which in a lot of places in the world are used.

Who will judge what's correct and what's incorrect? Irish is one of those languages where the boundary is so disputed it almost doesn't exist.

Maybe, but no one wants to here that, especially around here...

Féach ar an ngaelport inniú:

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=872&viewby=date

"Daoine atá ag obair in earnáil an oideachais is mó a bhí ann"

"in earnáil"

in earnest. Sounds very calquey to me, but a good one

Ps operative word -'Sounds', not 'is', but the sort of thing that might become more frequent in the future, as noun phrases are analysed more like englsih than irish.

Irish: Daoine atá ag obair in "earnáil an oideachais"

English: Daoine atá ag obair, in earnáil,

if you get my drift

quote:

Who will judge what's correct and what's incorrect? Irish is one of those languages where the boundary is so disputed it almost doesn't exist.

I disagree entirely.

The following are wrong:

Tá sé abhaile.
Tá mé buachaill.
Ithfidh mé an bhia.
Is sé Seán.
Tá conaí agam i nÉire.

Ofcourse, there are areas were there's alternatives:
ar an mbord / ar an mbord
den siúcra / den tsiúcra
An íosfaidh ? / An n-íosfaidh ?

I can tell correct Irish from incorrect Irish. I can tell a legitimate alternative from a downright mistake.

Personally, I blame computers!

It has now become so easy to print anything that the standard of spelling and grammar in signs and notices is in free fall in most languages.

Of course, the TOITD attitude doesn't help. ('Tis only Irish, 'twill do)

It certainly seems in Dublin that misspelt public notices in Irish are more frequent than misspelt english ones. (or should that be misspelled?).

It has to do with the fact that there are fewer people competent to proofread them.

I hope that the FnaG scheme for accrediting translators will bring some improvement.

Well, imagine you are living in a day not far off, when the number of speakers who learned Irish in school exceeds the number of native speakers by double or even triple.

At what point does incorrect pronunciation become a new dialect, or represents a vowel shift or something similar?

At what point do loanwords or calques become legitimate Irish words of foreign origin (like músaem)?

At what point do systemic mistakes like dropping gender become a convention in the new grammar?

After all, people in Chaucer's day would have been appalled at Shakespeare's butchering of English for his horrible pronunciation and made up words....and people in Cædmon's day would have been equally appalled at Chaucer for his extensive use of French vocabulary and idiom...

I would say that if you have the numbers, provided systemic mistakes are truly a system of their own with rules that can be discerned and quantified (even if there are a reasonable amount of exceptions) then it is a legitimate dialect with a legitimate grammar and idiom.

The notion that any of those changes has to come from the native speaking community does not hold water with Irish for several reasons. First, the students will or already do outnumber the natives. Secondly, while any generalization is bound to have numerous exceptions to it, the students are usually the ones who show enthusiasm and concern for the language's future. While 'natives only' may be the standard usually applied to language, Irish is a special case. Find me another language where enthusiastic students outnumber the apathetic native speakers and then see if linguistic convention is still attributed to the grassroots level natives...

And if you doubt me on numbers, I've read figures attributing 40-80,000 native speakers that admit to using the language daily (depending on report). This year gaelscoil enrollment was 30,000 and that's not counting those studying it in regular schools, on their own and around the world. US English Inc, a group pressing for English being made the official language of the US reports almost 26,000 Irish speakers in the US...and I guarantee you they're not from the gaeltacht. Gaelscoil population + US speaking population = something comparable to the daily gaeltacht speakers...and then you have students throughout the rest of the world and the rest of Ireland's school system besides...

sorry for the rant...

Having read older books in irish, I know have come to belief that words and phrases written down in irish are only approximations as to what is actually being spoken. I wouldnt like to tell a native speaker they have sinned against the supposed standard and as the majority of people here are not native speakers i would advise them against it too. adults should try to get away from strict ideas like this is right or this is wrong.

quote:

and I guarantee you they're not from the gaeltacht.

Given that the Gaeltacht was hardest hit by emigration, I suggest that statement should be
"and I guarantee you they're not all from the gaeltacht."

There is a heavy presence of people born and raised in the Gaelacht in the US.

Re: Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )

The reason that it's hard for anyone to correct you is because you are a perfectionist:)

This is the only one I've ever seen form you and I'm sure it's not to do with lack of understanding:
"ar an mbord / ar an mbord" -
I guess you meant the second one to be 'ar an bhord' a form used in Northern Irish?
I only did this because you pleaded so hard with "Correct me for the love of God..." :)

Re: "Who will judge what's correct and what's incorrect? Irish is one of those languages where the boundary is so disputed it almost doesn't exist."

MbM's mastery of the language proves how far we've come. People from other countries can learn and excel in this language and communicate with one another fluently. Of course there are tons of mistakes on Google because we were functioning for a long time without an 'Official Standard.' All the Irish pre standardization time and all those publications are still out there. It doesn't mean they're wrong. The language was evolving. Now we can write in a standard form. That doesn't mean that the spoken form is wrong. It's more alive and evolving still. The official standard Irish isn't perfect but Daltaí na Gaeilge is playing a strong role in teasing out difficulties. Many people tried to kill our language. Let's not forget how far we've come. Ní neart go cur le céile. Is aoibheann liom DnaG!

quote:

People from other countries can learn and excel in this language and communicate with one another fluently.

We owe foreigners a great debt.

Without Meyer, Marstrander, Pokorny, and many other scholars from abroad, the revival might not have happened.