Another thread got me thinking of this.

I wanted to translate "fréamhacha pobail" and I came out with: "communal roots".

fréamhacha = roots
pobal = community

Looking at the English word, "communal", would you say it's an adjective, or that it's a noun in the genitive case? Before I learned Irish, I always thought of it as an adjective, but now I see that it can be interpreted as a noun in the genitive. It can look like an adjective in the following construction:

The problem is communal.
(The problem is to do with community).

But I don't think you can do that in Irish (although I'm open to correction):

Tá an fhadhb pobail

Any thoughts on this?

There's plenty of places in English where we "transform" a word when we're using it to describe something else:

disciplinary problem (discipline)
doctoral course (doctorate)
cranial trauma (cranium)
nervous system (nerve)

But then other times we just slap them together:

medicine cabinet (rather than "medicinal cabinet" or "medical cabinet")

Are we making adjectives, or are we putting the nouns in the genitive. . .

"medicine cabinet"

the medicine's cabinet

When you can link two nouns in English by placing 's after the first, you have the genitive.

(the) disciplinary problem (discipline)
(the) doctoral course (doctorate)
(the) cranial trauma (cranium)
(the) nervous system (nerve)

the discipline's problem (discipline)
the doctorate's course (doctorate)
the cranium's trauma (cranium)
the nerves' system (nerve)

More detailed grammar can be given by other who know english grammar better than I

The equivalent of the genitive case in English is called the possessive case. It usually denotes ownership.

John's book.
The houase of John.
John's tenacity.

What are cases :

Cases are just like prepositions (or pospositions), except that you cannot "detach" them from the noun.

In "teach Sheáin", you have 3 things: "teach", "Seán" and something that gives the idea of "possession".
Same thing with "house of John", or "John's house".

Can you detach that "thing" in English? Yes: "of" or "s". We are not dealing with cases here, but with a preposition ("of") and a posposition ("s").
Can you detach that "thing" in Irish? No: it is "mixed" (we say "amalgamed") with Seán: Sheáin. Therefore it's a case.

>>Are we making adjectives, or are we putting the nouns in the genitive. . .

cranial trauma: "cranium" becomes an adjective
John's house: "John" is linked to "house" by means of a postposition.
the house of John: "John" is linked to "house" by means of a preposition.


>>Tá an fhadhb pobail

To me the sentence is incomplete.

I think you're having the same problem as with "á bhualadh": you are analyzing the sentences through their translation.

"When you can link two nouns in English by placing 's after the first, you have the genitive."

All those grammar books leading me astray

quote:

Cases are just like prepositions (or pospositions), except that you cannot "detach" them from the noun.

Seems hazey to me... you'd have to define "detach":--

You say that in the English: John's house, that you can "detach" the apostraphe and the "s", and so we have a posposition (Was that a typo for "postposition"?

Anyway, looking at the Irish: teach Sheáin
Who's to say you can't detach the "h" and the "i"... ?

Analysing the following English sentences:
1) I saw the women.
2) I saw the dogs.

Would you argue that "women" is a "case", and that with "dogs", we have a pos(t)position?

Or let's take an Irish one: áit

In the following sentence:

Bhí sé ag lorg áite.

Is "áite" a case or a pos(t)position?

>>Was that a typo for "postposition"?

Yes.

----------------------

Connectors:
Connectors are units whose function is to link two other units in a syntactic (and semantic) way.
In "house of John", the units "John" and "house" are linked together by means of "of". We have a house, we have John, "of" is here to signify that John is the owner of the house.
If the connector comes "before", it's called a "preposition".
If the connector comes "after", it's called a "postposition".
If the connector is amalgamed", it's called a "case".


>>Anyway, looking at the Irish: teach Sheáin
Who's to say you can't detach the "h" and the "i"... ?

Spelling is never to be taken into account, except in extremely specific circumstances.
Seán : /s'a:N/
Teach Sheáin : /t'ax x'a:n'/
/s'a:N/ ~ /x'a:n'/
If you can't say, in terms of phonemes, which is A and which is B, it's an "amalgam".

>>Would you argue that "women" is a "case", and that with "dogs", we have a pos(t)position?

Oulala que non !
Plural is not a connector, it's a modality.
But the morphological principle is the same:
- In the case of "dogs", it comes after.
- In the case of "women", it is amalgamed.

>>Is "áite" a case or a pos(t)position?

Now what would you say?
(You should rephrase the question before answering it...)

/s'a:N/ ~ /x'a:n'/

is that /x'a:n'/ or /h'a:n'/?

>>is that /x'a:n'/ or /h'a:n'/?

I suppose it depends on the dialect:

sh (slender):
- /h/
- /x'/ when before eá(i), eo(i), iú(i), io

(Learning Irish)

thats what I thought

Taking the two Irish words:

áit
fear

And looking at their genitive case:

1) Tá sé ag lorg na háite
2) Tá sé ag lorg an fhir

I would say that "áite" contains a postposition, while "fir" is an amalgamation.

quote:

If the connector comes "before", it's called a "preposition".
If the connector comes "after", it's called a "postposition".
If the connector is amalgamed", it's called a "case".

We're talking strictly about sounds, yes? For instance, if we spelled "dogs" as "sdog" (i.e. put the "s" before it instead of after it), then it would still be a postposition because the sound alteration is appended (rather than prepended). Yes?

Am I right in thinking:

1) "dogs" contains a postposition.

2) "houses" is an amalgamation because the "s" consanant is changed to a "z" sound.

Modification of the criteria:

I've been thinking about "case" and "pre/postposition", and I think the criteria I gave should be redefined a little.
(I still make it simpler than it actually is, but I hope it will do...)

1/ If we have a unit whose function is to connect syntactically and semantically 2 other units, it's a connector.
In linguistic terms, we'd say that A determins B by means of a connector.

2/ Morphology (considering A determins B):
- if the connector comes before A, and if you can insert "things" between the connector and A, then the connector is a preposition.
Example: "the house of John" - "the house of my uncle John"

- if the connector comes after A, and if you can insert "things" between the connector and A, then the connector is a postposition.
Example: "John 's house" - "John the fisher's son 's house"
(I agree that in English, the status of 's is moot, but I don't have another example)

- if the connector is amalgamed to A, or if you cannot insert "things" between the connector and A, then the connector is a case.
A second morphological criterion is that of "agreement": each unit of the syntagm will show "casual traits".
Example: "fear" - "an fear mór" / "teach fir" - "teach an^lenition fhir mhóir"

>>We're talking strictly about sounds, yes?

Yes

>>Am I right in thinking: etc...

No. Because the plural connects nothing: it simply determins the noun, therefore it's neither a case, nor a pre/postposition.


Is this any clearer?