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Podsers
Member Username: Podsers
Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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What does the "Dentals" rule apply to? |
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Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 2921 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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Féach an nóta a thug mé ar snath eile. |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 990 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 01:35 pm: |
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When you have to stick a "h" on a word, you don't do so for the letters: d t s if they're preceeded by d t s l n. This rule is known colloquially as the "dots after dentals rule". Examples: an duais don seomra seandoctúir Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 994 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 04:21 pm: |
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One also you'll come across (which is irregular), is that no form of the verb "abair" gets a séimhiú: Ní dúirt Ní deir, ní deireann Ní déarfaidh Also you don't stick a séimhiú on "gach" ever: ag iarraidh ar gach duine And you don't stick a séimhiú on an "f" after "gan": gan fear (but "gan chos, gan bhac, gan bhean") Also I think there's something about not séimhiú'ing a "b" after an "m": um bosca, ach um gharda There's a few more I believe... Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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James
Member Username: James
Post Number: 319 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 05:53 pm: |
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Thanks, FnaMb....I don't have my books with me and couldn't really call this rule to mind. I had the general "gist" of it but not well enough to try and explain. Your description is perfect...very helpful and relatively easy to put into the "mental hard-drive". Le meas, James Is minic a bhris beál duine a shrón.
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Lucy (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 06:07 pm: |
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Great explanation! |
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Podsers
Member Username: Podsers
Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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Right but when 'ar' comes into the equation there is a h ar dhaoine mar shampla? Ni bhaineann se sin leis an riail? An bhfuil sé sin ceart? |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 999 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 02:50 pm: |
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Here's how your thought processes should work: Step 1: Does the thing we're working with cause a séimhiú? We're working with "ar", so the answer is Yes. Step 2: Does the next word start with a D, T or S? If not, just go ahead and stick a séimhiú on it. But if it does start with D, T or S, move on to Step 3. Step 3: What is the letter behind the D, T or S? Is it one of the following: DeNTaLS? If so, then don't stick a séimhiú on it; otherwise go right ahead. So we have the following: ar bhuachaill ar gharda ar dhuine ar throdaí don bhuachaill don gharda don duine don trodaí Note that "sa" gets lumped into the same group as "don" and "den": sa bhuachaill sa gharda sa duine sa trodaí You're right in thinking that there's no reason why there shouldn't be a séimhiú on the last two... there just isn't! Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Podsers
Member Username: Podsers
Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 04:14 pm: |
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So I wasn't thinking strangely then.. I suddenly felt after all my years of Irish that I was awful!!:) Thanks |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1002 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 08:21 pm: |
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Tá fáilte romhat a chara. Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 322 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 09:38 pm: |
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sa duine sa trodaí You're right in thinking that there's no reason why there shouldn't be a séimhiú on the last two... there just isn't! I suppose it's because "sa(n)" = "s"+"a(n)" Strangely enough, in this case, when the "n" is not pronounced, it's not written. But since it was there, it explains why there's no séimhiú... |
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Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 965 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 12:17 am: |
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The longer form "ins an" is still used in spoken Irish in some parts, and in the written language. Bainimse úsáid as uaireanta. Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra trafitto da un raggio di sole: ed è subito sera. -- Salvatore Quasimodo
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 323 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 05:52 am: |
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By the way, "sa" doesn't not uniformly cause lenition amongst dialects, but also eclipsis (at least in Cois Fhairrge, cf Learning Irish). |
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 324 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 06:00 am: |
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I just noticed the typo above. I still could re-edit the post, but I'll leave it this way: it makes me think of the French negation... |
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Robert (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 07:28 am: |
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the lack of lention on the dentals may be down to the unstableness of d and t in most dialects once the dental fricatives had been displaced or just that lack/less mutation of d anf t occur due to over generalisation. Remember, sometimes there are psychological, social or physical reasons for language change, not just grammatical |
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Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 1003 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 08:17 am: |
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Just so you know, it's only "san" before vowels: Bhí sé sa pháirc. Bhí sé sa bpáirc. Bhí sé san fharraige. Bhí sé san áit. Fáilte Roimh Cheartúcháin Correct me for the love of God... I'm a perfectionist! : )
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Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 326 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 09:36 am: |
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This is a very important reminder, Robert. Language evolution is directed by many factors, some internal to the language, some external (social, ...). We don't know all the factors, and we don't fully understand how those we're aware of interact. As a consequence, we can only partly explain the evolution of a language, and even less predict its future evolution. |
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