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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (January-February) » Archive through February 06, 2006 » A little bit of syntax « Previous Next »

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 308
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

scríobh Lughaidh:
quote:

Can you explain us what is the head of a sentence and how you know what is the head and what is not?



I thought I'd start a new thread for that.


head = predicate.

1/ Any utterance is decomposable into meaningful units
2/ These units are not just put together but are linked into a structure. This structure is called syntax.
3/ The most common relation between 2 units is that of determination. Determination means hierarchical dependance + semantic precision.
Example: "the apple": "the" determines "apple" ("the" precises "apple" semantically: it's not any apple + it is dependant on "apple": you can have "apple" without "the" but not the other way around)
4/ If units are linked through determination, then there is a begining and an end: units which determine without being themselves determined and 1 unit which is determined without determining. This unit is the predicate, or head, of the sentence.

Verbs are a syntactic category whose function is to be head of the sentence. Not all languages have verbs: not all languages have a category whose units are meant to be predicate. (Irish does though.)

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 938
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 01:02 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An féidir leat sampla nó dhó a thabhairt dom dá bhfuil á rá agat in 4? Agus bhí ionadh orm a léamh nach mbíonn briathra i ngach uile theanga. Níor mhiste mé cúpla sampa de sin a fheiceáil chomh maith. Dála an scéil, préciser = determine. Ní féidir precises a rá i mBéarla. Pé scéal é, tá sé seo uilig an-suimiúil.

Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera. -- Salvatore Quasimodo

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 309
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 02:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>Ní féidir precises a rá i mBéarla.

Thank you. Sometimes I get a little lost with all the "faux amis"...
I'll say "specify" then. ("determine" has here a very specific meaning equating that of "déterminer".)

>>An féidir leat sampla nó dhó a thabhairt dom dá bhfuil á rá agat in 4?

(a>b means "a determines b")

"I am eating the red apples"

- units : "I" + "eat" + "present" + "progressive" + "definite article" + "red" + "apple" + "plural"

- systactic structure:

"definite article" > "apple"
"plural" > "apple"
"red" > "apple"

"present" > "eat"
"progressive" > "eat"
"I" > "eat"
"apple" > "eat"

•As you can see, "apple" is determined by "definite article", "plural" and "red", and in the same time determines "eat". Most units function like this.
•In this sentence, "I", "present", "progressive", "definite article", "plural" and "red" determine but are not determined.
"red" and "I" could be determined ("very red": "very" > "red", "I myself": "myself" > "I"), they belong to the majority, like "apple".
"present", "progressive", "definite article" and "plural" can never be determined: these specific units are called "modalities" (or "grammatical determinants").
•"eat" is determined but determines nothing. It's is the head of the sentence, the predicate.

>>Agus bhí ionadh orm a léamh nach mbíonn briathra i ngach uile theanga. Níor mhiste mé cúpla sampa de sin a fheiceáil chomh maith.

•In French:
"Je mangeais les pommes rouges"
"mange" is compatible with certain categories, like tense (here: "imparfait"), and is incompatible with other categories, like articles. Furthermore, it is meant to be head of the sentence.
On the other hand, "pomme" is compatible with articles, but incompatible with tense. Furthermore, it isn't meant to be head of the sentence.
When a language show these two distinct categories, we say there is a "verbo-nominal opposition".

Infinitives are often mistaken to be verbs. But they belong to a specific category: infinitives are complex units sharing certain compatibilities with verbs and others with nouns, and are not meant to be head of the sentence.
The Irish equivalent to "infinitives" is "verbal nouns". As the name indicates, it is between the verb and the noun, being neither.

•In Haitian Creole:
"tifi a ap flannen nan lari a" = "the girl is wandering in the street"
"mwen fe on ti flannen" = "I am doing a little wandering"

"mwen kuri nan lari a" = "I ran in the street"
"mwen we on gwo kuri nan lari a" = "I saw a big race in the street"

"flannen" and "kuri" are neither verbs nor nouns: depending on the context, they can be predicate or object (or subject...).

•In Chinese:
There is a verbo-nominal opposition, but the frontiere between verbs and nouns is blurry: there are many units which behave like nouns or verbs depending on the contexte (like in Haitian Creole), and some which behave strictly like verbs while others behave strictly like nouns (like in French).


Syntactic "roles" such as predicate, object, subject are found in every language. Syntactic categories such as verb and noun are found in certain languages only.

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 940
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 02:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

I'll say "specify" then.

Tá an ceart agat. Ní hionann "préciser" agus "determine". Bhí "specifiy" i m'intinn ar dtús ach ansin sheas mé ar fhód seachráin! Maidir leis an gcuid eile, beidh orm é staidéar a dhéanamh air tráthnóna -- tá orm imeacht anois! SGF.

Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera. -- Salvatore Quasimodo

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 942
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 09:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Hi Max,

Dúirt tú ar dtús Verbs are a syntactic category whose function is to be head of the sentence. Not all languages have verbs, agus ansin thug tú samplaí dúinn ón gcréole haïtienne, mar atá:

"mwen fe on ti flannen" = "I am doing a little wandering"

= moi fait/fais un petit flâner (c'est ça?) = me do a little sauntering

Ach céard faoi "fe" san abairt seo? Nach briathar é? Tá níos mó mínithe ag teastáil uaim! :-)

Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera. -- Salvatore Quasimodo

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Max
Member
Username: Max

Post Number: 312
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 06:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>>= moi fait/fais un petit flâner (c'est ça?) = me do a little sauntering

bravo!

>>Ach céard faoi "fe" san abairt seo? Nach briathar é?

The languages people speak on this board are (mostly?) western indo-european languages (English, Irish, French, German, ...). These languages have very strict syntactic categories (I'll say "classes" now). As a result, we strongly tend to confuse the class and the function:

We have units dedicated to the function of predicate: these units are called verbs. So each time we see a predicate, we believe the unit is a verb, because this is what happens in our languages.
It's the same thing with cases: cases are a class, and they distribute nominal functions (nominative for the object function, accusative for the subject function, ...). So Each time we see a subject, we tend to believe (for languages showing a nominal declension) that there is a nominative case.

In our languages, a certain function can only be taken on by certain units and vice versa. These units constitute a class. (If a unit is a verb, then it's not a noun or an adjective or an adverb; and if a unit is a noun, then it's not a verb or an adjective......)
In other languages, such a specificity may not exist.

Other example: in Paumotu

kua kiro tera tañata = this person (is) bad / (did) bad
kua kite ona kia tera tañata kiro = he saw this bad person
kua kite ona te kiro o tera tañata = he saw the bad(ness) of this person
kua reko kiro tera tañata = this person spoke bad(ly)

As you can see, "kiro" wil be translated in English by a verb, a noun, an adjective or an adverb. But in Pautomu, "kiro" is none of these: it is not specific. The units that would be classified into 4 different classes (verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs) in our languages belong to a single class in Pautomu. (In other words, there are no nouns, verbs, adjectives or adverbs in Pautomu, but one larger group...)

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Dennis
Member
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 944
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 10:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ah! Tuigim anois. Go raibh maith agat!

Ognuno sta solo sul cuor della terra
trafitto da un raggio di sole:
ed è subito sera. -- Salvatore Quasimodo



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