Seo teachtaireacht a chuir mé chuig Byron Calame, "Public Editor" de chuid an New York Times, inné:

Dear Mr. Calame,

Can you explain to me why the "Parti Québecois" is accorded
its acute "é" while the Irish political party "Sinn Féin" is
not? I am not a particular supporter of either party, but
I am an Irish (Gaelic) speaker who values the language and
would like to see it treated with respect.

I understand that Allan M. Seigal is largely responsible for
devising the NYT style book. I would be interested in hearing
his rationale as well.

Thank you,

Dennis King

Maith thú, a dhennis.
Is mithid urraim an litrithe chuí.

Malheureusement, des quotidennes en Irlande ont le meme probleme..

Sinn Féin is proper Gaeilge and makes sense..

Sinn Fein is an Irish word and 4 random letters thrown together for the craic...

There's no excuse for ignorance!

Ach cuireann an Irish Times an agúid san áit cheart in "Sinn Féin", mas buan mo chuimhne. "National newspaper of record" is ea an New York Times, ní nuachtáinín i stát cearnach i lár na tíre é. (Féach ar an léarscáil mura dtuigeann tú "cearnach" -- tá fíor-chearnach againn abhus anseo, agus beagnach cearnach.) Pé scéal é, ní bhfuair mé aon fhreagra ón Uasal Calame fós.

quote:

ont le meme probleme

An d'aon ghnó a d'fhág tú an cuairín agus an ghraif ar lár: "ont le même problème" ?

"There's no excuse for ignorance!"

des quotidiens

I don't quite understand what's going on here so I'll hazard a guess:

The newspaper in question had the names of both entities printed, but didn't stick the fada an "Féin".

In handwriting, if I see a fada in the wrong place (or absence thereof), I presume:

A) They're a learner.
-or-
B) They just have sloppy writing. (I know plenty of people who speak decent fluent English but have disgraceful written punctuation).
-or-
C) It's just a once-off error. (We all have a brain fart sometimes!)

When I see a fada in the wrong place in typed text, I presume:

A) All of the above reasons
-or-
B) A typographical error. (Simply hitting the wrong key and not noticing).
-or-
C) Limitations of the environment. (Perhaps the fancy vowels aren't supported).


Either way, my very last conclusion would be that the first entity is getting prefereable treatment over the second. If that dude writes back to you, he'll just say it's a typo.

not if it appears multiple times the same way. I think it's just the fact that so few people outside of the Irish language community have any idea that there even is a language, much less how to spell things.

As for Sinn Féin, go to sinnfein.org and take a look, the title bar has the fada, the large type next to the picture has the fada...but every single time it's mentioned in the text of the page, picture captions and body text alike, they omit their own fada...AND they use the phrase "Irish Gaelic"

so...putting yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't know a thing about the Irish language or much about Irish politics personally...what would you expect...?

quote:

Sinn Féin is proper Gaeilge and makes sense..

Sinn Fein is an Irish word and 4 random letters thrown together for the craic...

There's no excuse for ignorance!

Domhnall you can't talk -- your written English is just as sloppy and erroneous as your written Irish.

quote:

not if it appears multiple times the same way. I think it's just the fact that so few people outside of the Irish language community have any idea that there even is a language, much less how to spell things.

As for Sinn Féin, go to sinnfein.org and take a look, the title bar has the fada, the large type next to the picture has the fada...but every single time it's mentioned in the text of the page, picture captions and body text alike, they omit their own fada...AND they use the phrase "Irish Gaelic"

Firstly, Dennis's e-mail conveyed an air of accusation, as if the omission of the fada was intentional, which I think is ludicrous. Suggesting that the language isn't being given "respect" is even more nonsense. Why not just attack the people on this board who butcher the Irish Language daily? The article has already been printed, so the damage has been done; all that one can hope for is that they refrain from the misspelling.

---
Dear Mr X,

I have noticed that your newspaper consistently spells wrong the name of the political party, "Sinn Féin". Note that there is a north-east dash over the "e". As a speaker of the Irish Language, I would if you could use the correct spelling from here on in.
---

If someone e-mailed me accusing me of disrespecting a particular entity simply because I misspelled its name, I'd reply as follows:

---
Dear Mr X,

Fuck off with your accusations -- it was a simple misspelling, nothing more.

Nonetheless, we have taken note of the correct spelling and shall use it from here on in.
---

"Firstly, Dennis's e-mail conveyed an air of accusation, as if the omission of the fada was intentional, which I think is ludicrous. Suggesting that the language isn't being given "respect" is even more nonsense. Why not just attack the people on this board who butcher the Irish Language daily? The article has already been printed, so the damage has been done; all that one can hope for is that they refrain from the misspelling."


Perhaps I've been misunderstood. What I meant was that if it was consistent, it is intentional, but not due to any desire to show a lack of respect. If the newspaper is spelling it that way, it's probably because they think that's how it's actually spelled. A trip to the party website for anyone checking up on that would seem to confirm the fada-less spelling. I was saying, as you seem to be, don't read more into things than is there...at least until they give you a reason to.

Also I wouldn't expect them to change their style sheet based on a lone letter from out of the blue. I'm sure they'll check into it, but exactly what they'll find when they do is anybody's guess if Sinn Féin itself is inconsistent with its use of the fada...

Let me fill in some details. The New York Times is the most highly regarded newspaper in this country. It is available every morning throughout the U.S. I get the national edition, printed at a plant here in Seattle, delivered to my home here in time for breakfast. Many more people read it on the internet. What the NYT does and says generally sets a standard for other newspapers.

The New York Times supports the diacritics used in spelling French, German, Spanish, etc. and almost always uses them for words, especially proper names, in those languages. Example from today's edition: Luis Negrón (a doorman on the Upper East Side, not a diplomatic bigwig, by the way).

The New York Times has, consistently over the last decade, ignored the acute accent in Irish words and proper names. (I tend to notice such names and words!) The only exception that I can remember is Nuala Ní Dhomhnall who got her "í fada" in a major piece she wrote for the Sunday Magazine back in January 1995 ("Why I Choose to Write in Irish, The Corpse that Sits Up and Talks Back").

The New York Times has a "style book". I've never seen it, so I can't say with certainty whether it even mentions the Irish language, or merely ignores it. Probably the latter. The outcome, however, is that writers and copy editors at the paper are not on notice that Irish words can have acute accents and that they should be respected.

If I do not get a satisfactory response from the public editor of the New York Times soon, I would seriously suggest an e-mail campaign to "raise their consciousness"!

I for one always like to spell my Irish with the acute accent, and to speak it with a cute accent!

(Message edited by mbm on January 17, 2006)

Dennis a chara, i was on a dodge keyboard at the time so that's why they're not there.

Antaine, Sinn Féin's website is http://www.sinnfein.ie/
I presume that .org was written by Americans for Americans. I've never heard "Irish Gaelic" used once by Irish people.

Here we go again with the rather sad "onslaught" from - Fear na Nobody Cares - what you think so get a life man!

I DONT HAVE FRC as my signature so don't bother correcting me. I've got better things to do than complimenting the English language in Eirinn by speaking it perfectly.

"I don't quite understand what's going on here" Who cares? You are nothing special. If we really want to know what you think we'll ask. If not you can write whatever floats your boat like me, Dennis, Pádraig or anyone.

"Why not just attack the people on this board who butcher the Irish Language daily?"
I presume you're refering to yourself here with your miserable, attention-seeking, unwanted attacks on those people who do their best to learn and perfect.

When will you learn that these outbursts are not wanted? Have you nothing better to do? I'm sure everyone would prefer if you'd just have a bit of cop on. And if you can't respect everyone else's wishes well maybe then you should leave and don't come back.

What a sad person you are.

Seo thíos an freagra a fuair mé inniu ón duine a scríobh an "style book". What do you think?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Mr. King,

        The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage (Random House, 1999) includes the following instruction, to which we at least try to adhere:

         accent marks are used for French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and German words and names. For simplicity, use the marks uniformly with uppercase and lowercase letters, despite conventions that treat certain uppercase accents as optional. Do not use accents in words or names from other languages (Slavic and Scandinavian ones, for example), which are less familiar to most American writers, editors and readers; such marks would be prone to error, and type fonts often lack characters necessary for consistency.

         Regards,

        Allan M. Siegal

Sure and I wish the all of you could get on better with each other. Certain ones of us seem to take too much pleasure in dissing on each other. I have no objections to disagreements that may occur because I've gotten ever so used to it, but I don't want us to cause this thread to close down. I guess that has kind of become my concern of late because I was having a delightful time reading that thread about boundaries between the six counties and the rest and it suddenly closed and that bothered me. Anyway, We don't always have to agree. Being an American I've gotten used to the fact that most people don't agree with what I'm saying in most places I go, school, friends, acpuentences etc. As for Dennis and his fadas, I don't think there's much to be done about them.
Bein bua agus beannacht

Thanks for the input, Domhnall, it's good to get other people's insight.

Regarding the reply from Allan M. Siegal, I don't quite understand why it would be "prone to error" to stick fada's on Irish words. It wouldn't be more error prone than it is for the people writing German words or Spanish words. If anything, it would be far less complicated! Spanish has all sorts of squigly things in, over and beside their letters... all we want is a dash!

There's another argument that can be made:

--
Dear Mr X,

While I understand the implication of your policy, I would like to make you aware that acute vowels are a fundamental part of Irish spelling, and, without them, the text could be unintelligible, or perhaps take on different meaning altogether. For instance:

D'ith an chaora an féar.
Unambiguous translation: The cow ate the grass.

D'ith an chaora an fear.
Unambiguous translation: The cow ate the man.

There are several nouns, verbs and adjectives in the Irish language which take on a totally different meaning depending on the placement of the acute in their spelling.

The Irish Language alphabet is a compete subset of the English Language alphabet, with the addition of five small letters:

á ó ú í é

The five "long" vowels, and all of them carry a north-west facing dash.

I would appreciate (as would all Irish readers) if you would consider modifying your policy for correct rendering of the Irish language, both for intelligible reading, and for asthetic beauty.
--

Spanish has all sorts of squigly things in, over and beside their letters

You must be confusing it with some other language. The only diacritic Spanish has is the accute accent. Polish (or any other slavic language using the latin alphabet) would fit the description better.

"The only diacritic Spanish has is the accute accent."

Not true, there's the squiggly thing ~ that sometimes goes over the letter n

True. I forgot that one. It's called a "tilde". That makes it two. But I still don't think that 2 qualifies for "all sorts"...

D'ith an chaora an féar.
Unambiguous translation: The cow ate the grass.

caora = sheep
bó = cow

quote:

It's called a "tilde". That makes it two.

Tá ceann amháin eile ann, mar atá la diéresis:

lingüistica, vergüenza, pingüino, etc.

The New York style manual:

quote:

Do not use accents in words or names from other languages (Slavic and Scandinavian ones, for example)

Scandinavian languages don't have "accents". They have weird-looking vowels that bear a superficial resemblance to English vowels (Æ, Ø, and Å for example). I don't know much about Slavic languages but I have seen things that look like acute accents above some Slavic letters, as well as other funny-looking marks. I can understand their concern about errors with type fonts with these languages.

But if they can put an accent on "González" it should be easy for them to put it on 'Féin'. It would be a very simple thing to do, just a matter of adding the single word "Gaelic" to their style manual. (I don't care for the word myself but it's something their writers would understand.)

Dennis wrote:

quote:

If I do not get a satisfactory response from the public editor of the New York Times soon, I would seriously suggest an e-mail campaign to "raise their consciousness"!

I think we should do it.

Several years ago, a person I worked with told me that men enjoy a fight for its own sake, that they just like the thrill of competition. But women only enjoy a fight if they think they can win.

This looks like a fight with nothing to lose and a reasonable chance of success, although the sheer size and power of the New York Times will make it more difficult to get their attention.

Hi Liz & Daltaí,

Let me bring you up to date on my correspondence with the NYTimes. I wrote back to Mr. Siegal one more time, and he replied once more to me. Here are the two messages:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Mr. Siegal,

I understand your position, but needless to say I don't like it.
Today's NYT offers another irritant in the otherwise interesting
article on Irish "royal blood". I wonder, did Dr. McKenna really
leave out the acute accents in the e-mail message quoted, i.e.
"Ui Neill" instead of "Uí Néill", etc.? By the way, Irish has
only the acute over the five vowels, nothing fancy at all.

I'll leave it at that, and I thank you for your response.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mr. King,

I think that if you shared my experience with overseeing an editing process that involved hundreds of people working at warp speed, you might come to the same conclusions I did. (In any event, I doubt that any general-circulation newspaper in America uses accent marks for Irish; in fact most don't use any at all.) But I think we will have to agree to disagree.

Regards,

ams

"Tá ceann amháin eile ann, mar atá la diéresis"

Now I think of it, the term "Spanish", although almost exclusively refering to Castilian, could also refer to Catalan. In which case we could add to the list the dot between to l's: l·l, as in: "paral·lel", the cedilla with c: ç, and the grave accent on the vowels: à è ì ò ù.
But I assume M. Siegal was not refering to Catalan at all.

(Message edited by Max on January 19, 2006)

quote:

But I assume M. Siegal was not refering to Catalan at all.

No, Catalan is one of the "lesser breeds without the Law" (as Kipling wrote), along with Irish, Danish, and the rest.

(Ag cur gothai/ trodacha orm, mar dhea!)

Bhi/ dli/ agus breithiu/na againne agus ag lucht na Catalo/ine nuair nach raibh le/amh n/a scri/obh ag sinsir Kipling bhundu/in an fhir bha/in!